2008 Best Car Series (Round 2): Honda S2000 vs Audi R8

[Danny]

It is subjective, but the materials used doesnt look in that pic to be of as high a standard as some of the germans.

Brainfart on the ob/sub, but having seen the interior in person, it really is top-notch.

so one guy says the accord ride quality is better than all the germans and all of a sudden it must be true and gospel?

When multiple auto-journalists, paid to professionally review and compare cars all pick out the same positive points of a car, maybe it's time to pay some attention.

Besides, since when has third party or dubious information ever been a problem for you?

 

[forza2.0]

Brainfart on the ob/sub, but having seen the interior in person, it really is top-notch.



When multiple auto-journalists, paid to professionally review and compare cars all pick out the same positive points of a car, maybe it's time to pay some attention.

Besides, since when has third party or dubious information ever been a problem for you?

Since when have I ever claimed car x handles better than y and z? Or rides more smoothly?

So then who are these multiple auto journos, as the accord hasnt come up on the radar of the sites I visit, and they are usually pretty quick on these things when a non german car threatnes the ranking.

And just because they say the car rides really smoothly, did they actually say that its better than the germans, and beat them at their own game?

 

[Tornado]

Since when have I ever claimed car x handles better than y and z? Or rides more smoothly?

Please...no more...can't breath...

 

[Danny]

Since when have I ever claimed car x handles better than y and z? Or rides more smoothly?

If you think you can handle it, go and read what I actually said. I never mentioned that you'd claimed that, my point was that you used lap times to argue that the S2000 was being left behind. Oh, and you did, when you discussed the shortfalls of the S2000 next to it's competitors.

So then who are these multiple auto journos, as the accord hasnt come up on the radar of the sites I visit, and they are usually pretty quick on these things when a non german car threatnes the ranking.

Well Evo magazine, Top Gear mag, Auto Express and Autocar all rated it highly.

But is the rest of the Accord’s driving experience good enough to rank alongside BMW, Mercedes’ and Audi’s finest? Well, yes and no. A new rear axle chassis setup has done wonders for this car dynamically; it rides better than an Audi A4, and responds as keenly to steering inputs as a 3-series.
It’s also more technologically advanced than anything of its size in the European premium segment. For less than an averagely-equipped A4, you can fit your new Accord with Honda’s Advanced Driver Assistance System, which includes adaptive cruise control, lane-keeping assistance and a crash warning and mitigation system (which wakes the driver up to potential and imminent accidents).

And just because they say the car rides really smoothly, did they actually say that its better than the germans, and beat them at their own game?

See above.

 

[homeforsummer]

People rave on about how great the S2000 is at driving fast, but then dismiss lap times, so tell me where exactly are you meant to make use of what its great at, if not at the racetrack where hothatches will overtake me whilst having much lower running costs?

Gaaaaaaaah

Right, I'll take this nice and slowly.

Lap times don't matter for road cars. They don't even matter as an indication of how quick a car might get down a country road from point A to point B.

Firstly, this is because country roads have lots of varied corners, bumps, dips, gravel, cow excrament, tractors, sheep, and ramblers. A racetrack has corners and straights, and that's pretty much it. So a car that can steam along a race track faster than it's peers might not necessarily be suited to the road. Apart from anything, a car that handles a racetrack in it's stride may feel out of it's depth on the road, or might be plain scary. This is one reason why lap times don't matter to road driving.

The second reason is that you seem to be implying that in flat out driving a hot hatch would be quicker. And it probably would. But anyone with half a brain won't be driving at 10/10ths on the roads anyway, so saying a particular car is "quicker" is irrelevant. I could drive a Nissan Micra at 10/10ths and be "quicker" than a Ferrari driven at 1/10ths, but the chances are I'd be driving pretty illegally, on the aforementioned unpredictable country road. So to conclude point number 2, flat out track driving has no place on the roads so performance comparison is irrelevant.

Despite all this, you could drive an S2000 down a country road and probably have more fun than in your cocooned wheelspinny hot hatch, regardless of whether the hot hatch was quicker. Sports cars aren't necessarily about getting from point A to point B quickly. If they were, then surely things like Triumph Spitfires, Austin-Healey Sprites and MG Bs would be useless, as most modern superminis would demolish them on a country road.

People buy sports cars because they look great and they're fun. And that's pretty much it. By all means buy a hot hatch and be quicker, but down the same stretch of road, with the hood down, a sports car would be more fun for most people. Given the choice of a basic Porsche Cayman with 245bhp at £30k and a 250bhp hot hatch at £20, I'd galdly spend the extra £10k to go more slowly and have more fun.

Since when have I ever claimed car x handles better than y and z? Or rides more smoothly?

In this discussion or in general?

 

[YSSMAN]

Can I just say that this is the reason why I've stayed with GTP for so long?

Just. Plain. Awesome.

 

[McLaren]

To be fair, this car was, technically, partially built in Lamborghini's facility before being shipped to BMW's.

Of course, Honda is still struggling to establish itself as a premium brand. It's that very reason the new-and-quite-good Accord hasn't been nudged into the A4/C Class/3 Series fold. As Evo (I think, or it may have been TG) said, as accomplished as it is, it's still a Honda.

I think Honda has gotten there with a very small amount of cars. I agree the Accord we see now isn't 3 Series or C Class amazing, but my TL-S is still a Honda, and it was put in a comparison to the 3, IS, G35, & another vehicle. The review called it their second favorite car, and the only reason the 3 was the obvious winner was because Honda had the TL-S set to FWD.

interior doesnt look as good as you make out and i suppose you will have driven in the accord and all the german competitors to make such a bold statement.

That interior actually is as good as Danny says it is. 5 years ago, I wouldn't believe Honda would make anything that nice.

Oh, and I can make that bold statement. Have you driven the Accord and its competitors to claim it hasn't? The Accord doesn't ride as well as the Germans, but for a Honda, it does a pretty fantastic job.

 

[1X83Z]

Have you driven the Accord and its competitors to claim it hasn't? The Accord doesn't ride as well as the Germans, but for a Honda, it does a pretty fantastic job.

I don't get why people say this. I swear it's just magazine hype. I HAVE driven the Accord and all of its competitors - it's just not that good! It has more steering feel than many of its competitors, but I'd much rather drive a Camry if we're talking about purely ride... and the Altima, even with its horribly light steering, still handles much more securely.

 

[McLaren]

I don't get why people say this. I swear it's just magazine hype. I HAVE driven the Accord and all of its competitors - it's just not that good! It has more steering feel than many of its competitors, but I'd much rather drive a Camry if we're talking about purely ride... and the Altima, even with its horribly light steering, still handles much more securely.

I know, and I agree. I said it doesn't ride as well as the Germans. But for something like that to come out of Honda for the Accord, I myself, am impressed. Now I haven't driven a Camry or an Altima, so I can't comment, but I'd be surprised if either are as nice as the new Accord, overall.

 

[niky]

It's quite funny, this discussion...

Having been in an Accord and an Audi A4... and having had a 3-series for a few days and a C-Class for a week, I can safely say that it's only the new A4 that outclasses the Accord interior... and then, only because it was the 3.2 Quattro, and obviously much more expensive... in terms of control quality and plastic feel, the Accord doesn't really come off badly compared to the A4.

BMW has nice plastics, and even on the cheapest ones there's a feeling of solidity, but the Accord can compete... the C-Class? The control quality is a joke compared to the rest.

Or a sports bike...

But... but... you can't drift a sports bike...

----

I'll largely agree that lap times don't matter in a car's enjoyment... but, ironically, that's why the S2000 doesn't quite do it for me... because the Mazda MX-5 is so epic for having so little power... it wouldn't even be a blip on the lap-time radar compared to those cars, but the way you go around the racetrack, it would be just as much fun as most (though I really have my reservations about the electric steering on the new one).

But, granted, I'd seriously consider an S2000 for the money... Honda engines are such lovely things...

 

[Muzaffar]

Are we having an argument already? This is rediculous stop trying to prove points people!!! This is how it goes every day sheesh.

Well this happened to me when I was a new member. Stick around, you may learn something....

I got a question Famine. Do you like V-tech engines?

FAIL!!!!! Its spelled V-tec and not V-Tech as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC

It's quite funny, this discussion...

QFT. 👍

But, granted, I'd seriously consider an S2000 for the money... Honda engines are such lovely things...

True as well. Honda's are just..... HONDAS!!!!!! You can't complain for the price you pay for it. The S2000 is really good for its price, and the fun factor and the amount of forums dedicated to the S2000 just shows how much support the S2000 gets from the enthusiast. I really would like to get an S2000 as my second car, and probably wouldn't give a damn if its slower, uncomfortable, or all that crap all of you have been saying. Its just down to preferences people, PREFERENCE!!!!

Also the one good thing about the S2000 is......

is that you can customize and modify them as you like! I mean, could any of those other cars be customized all like this? Nah, not even close. Its one thing why I liked about Japanese cars, even if the car doesn't held up as good as any of its competitors, it will make up for it with some support. 👍

 

[Famine]

FAIL!!!!! Its spelled V-tec and not V-Tech as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC

You are Captain Obvious, and I claim my $5.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'll largely agree that lap times don't matter in a car's enjoyment... but, ironically, that's why the S2000 doesn't quite do it for me... because the Mazda MX-5 is so epic for having so little power... it wouldn't even be a blip on the lap-time radar compared to those cars, but the way you go around the racetrack, it would be just as much fun as most (though I really have my reservations about the electric steering on the new one).

In all honesty, I'd take the MX5 too. I make no secret of the fact I believe that you don't need much power to have fun. I like small cars. I even have a soft spot for some pretty crap cars. But I do reckon that if I was handed the keys to the MX5 and the S2000 and asked to take one it'd be hard not to take the S2000. Much as you don't need extra power to have fun, I suspect that the VTEC 240bhp would be pretty addictive.

The steering in the new MX5 isn't fully electric, is it? I thought it was electro-hydraulic. Either way it doesn't feel too artifical from what I could tell. Was certainly more pleasant to steer than the unassisted Mk1 I drove.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

You mean illegal street races?

Oh we do. And they're just as illegal.



Please learn to differentiate your country's laws from mine.



My views are typed in indigo. Tough to miss them



They cope. Why wouldn't they?

Off street cruise Famine. It's basically a track day where a whole bunch of car owners get on the track and pretty much cruise around the corners and have little drags down the straights from rolling starts. Powercruise is a very popular event in Australia, and there are just as many Japanese cars as Australian/American cars.

gator of kana is quite right. Stop having opinions, people, and whatever you do, don't express them!

Especially if your opinion involves Holdens.

 

[YSSMAN]

I don't get why people say this. I swear it's just magazine hype. I HAVE driven the Accord and all of its competitors - it's just not that good! It has more steering feel than many of its competitors, but I'd much rather drive a Camry if we're talking about purely ride... and the Altima, even with its horribly light steering, still handles much more securely.

New gen Accords or the model previous to it? My seat time in the new Camry has been short, as for the updated Altima, but I can confirm that between the previous versions of all of those models, the Accord was the far-superior model.

Is it the one I prefer?

No. That title continues to sit with the Mazda 6.

 

[Famine]

Off street cruise Famine. It's basically a track day where a whole bunch of car owners get on the track and pretty much cruise around the corners and have little drags down the straights from rolling starts.

That's interesting. But I'll note it's a response to a comment that top speed is effectively a useless stat because you never get to use it.

Now, I've been on track days:

But ones where you try to go as fast as you want to - no lolly-gagging between corners, or cruising. The highest figure I've ever seen on a speedometer during a track day is 110mph (in someone else's car, and about 10mph faster than they managed ) which is about 80% of the car's theoretical maximum. I got 85mph in the braking zone for the corner in the picture above (different day) and no-one saw anything over 95mph - even the supercharged MX-5, the TVR Chimaera and the two Elises - and the Chimaera would pull 165mph with ease with enough road to do so.

So unless you're talking about Paul Ricard, La Sarthe or the 'Ring, the notion that maximum speed figures are any more relevant on a track is quite inaccurate - you still won't get anywhere near seeing them, even if you're going all out.

 

[Wolfe]

Actually, I'm pretty sure my bike and BMW would hit top speed, or at least 95% of it, on Road America, my closest major track. Though it was formerly the longest road course in the country, and in both cases I'd be doing just a bit above 100mph.

I wouldn't know, though. I haven't been up there yet.

 

[Famine]

It was running through my head to add "Unless it was stupidly low, or you had very short gearing"...

 

[Kent]

While I agree that the S2000 is a great car, I can't say they perfectly hit the nail on the head. Fact is, the torque of the S2000 was so bad, even with the newer engines, the JDM Civic Type R and Civic Type R Mugen RR are both capable of going faster around a track. For me, it's a shame to see Honda's flagship (true) sportscar getting beat by a well tuned limited production FWD.

With that in mind, I voted R8.
Excellent 4wd, power, style, and charisma make the R8 stand out not only as a great car but as a car out of the Honda's league.

Btw, the drift and tuner cars shown above are cool (though irrelevant)... However, if we begin to consider cars of that nature it would be fair to mention something like this also exist. 👍

 

[forza2.0]

Gaaaaaaaah

Right, I'll take this nice and slowly.

Lap times don't matter for road cars. They don't even matter as an indication of how quick a car might get down a country road from point A to point B.

Firstly, this is because country roads have lots of varied corners, bumps, dips, gravel, cow excrament, tractors, sheep, and ramblers. A racetrack has corners and straights, and that's pretty much it. So a car that can steam along a race track faster than it's peers might not necessarily be suited to the road. Apart from anything, a car that handles a racetrack in it's stride may feel out of it's depth on the road, or might be plain scary. This is one reason why lap times don't matter to road driving.

The second reason is that you seem to be implying that in flat out driving a hot hatch would be quicker. And it probably would. But anyone with half a brain won't be driving at 10/10ths on the roads anyway, so saying a particular car is "quicker" is irrelevant. I could drive a Nissan Micra at 10/10ths and be "quicker" than a Ferrari driven at 1/10ths, but the chances are I'd be driving pretty illegally, on the aforementioned unpredictable country road. So to conclude point number 2, flat out track driving has no place on the roads so performance comparison is irrelevant.

Despite all this, you could drive an S2000 down a country road and probably have more fun than in your cocooned wheelspinny hot hatch, regardless of whether the hot hatch was quicker. Sports cars aren't necessarily about getting from point A to point B quickly. If they were, then surely things like Triumph Spitfires, Austin-Healey Sprites and MG Bs would be useless, as most modern superminis would demolish them on a country road.

People buy sports cars because they look great and they're fun. And that's pretty much it. By all means buy a hot hatch and be quicker, but down the same stretch of road, with the hood down, a sports car would be more fun for most people. Given the choice of a basic Porsche Cayman with 245bhp at £30k and a 250bhp hot hatch at £20, I'd galdly spend the extra £10k to go more slowly and have more fun.



In this discussion or in general?

well I reckon I could have more fun in a hothatch on public roads than in a s2000. Plenty of people who have owned some of teh so called most desirable sports cars in the world have told me that some of the most fun they have ever had in a car was in a hothatch.

The porsche seems to be an exception though as just being a touch above everything else somehow. Dont ask me how or why as I cant say not having driven a porsche, but apparently words cannot describe it.

That interior actually is as good as Danny says it is. 5 years ago, I wouldn't believe Honda would make anything that nice.

Oh, and I can make that bold statement. Have you driven the Accord and its competitors to claim it hasn't? The Accord doesn't ride as well as the Germans, but for a Honda, it does a pretty fantastic job.

So you have driven all 4 cars or just sat in them?

It's quite funny, this discussion...

Having been in an Accord and an Audi A4... and having had a 3-series for a few days and a C-Class for a week, I can safely say that it's only the new A4 that outclasses the Accord interior... and then, only because it was the 3.2 Quattro, and obviously much more expensive...

Old A4 is actually of a higher quality interior. And the audi A4 interior is pretty much identicle across the range apart from seat fabric, bit of fancy stitching here and there and other little minor touches that dont make any real difference to the quality of the interior.

 

[homeforsummer]

well I reckon I could have more fun in a hothatch on public roads than in a s2000. Plenty of people who have owned some of teh so called most desirable sports cars in the world have told me that some of the most fun they have ever had in a car was in a hothatch.

Each to their own then I guess - I'm much more of a sports car and coupe fan than I am a hot hatch fan, so the appeal of punting a roadster down a twisty road appeals more than a hot hatch. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have a go in some of the modern hatches but they've become too ubiquitous and a worrying percentage are driven by cretins. And I wouldn't want to be associated with that.

On top of that, modern hot hatches are too good to have fun at legal speeds nowadays. At least in a sports car you can drop the roof, hear the noise, and then look down at the speedo and see you're only doing 50mph.

You've managed to conveniently sidestep my point though, which was that lap times and outright speed aren't necessary to have fun.

 

[Philly]

While I agree that the S2000 is a great car, I can't say they perfectly hit the nail on the head. Fact is, the torque of the S2000 was so bad, even with the newer engines, the JDM Civic Type R and Civic Type R Mugen RR are both capable of going faster around a track. For me, it's a shame to see Honda's flagship (true) sportscar getting beat by a well tuned limited production FWD.

I believe this topic is what we've been discussing for the last few pages. And the conclusion (as I recall) is that that can't be something to discredit the car on.

On top of that, modern hot hatches are too good to have fun at legal speeds nowadays. At least in a sports car you can drop the roof, hear the noise, and then look down at the speedo and see you're only doing 50mph.

I never have any troubles having plenty of fun at legal speeds in the GTI. But that car only has 200 horsepower. For some of these new 250-300 hp monsters, you probably will have to wind it out a bit more to enjoy yourself. In corners though, I'd guess they'd all be a blast, no matter what their power rating is.

I will agree on the speedo thing. It happens all to often that you're just driving along and find that you're going a tad faster than you thought you were.

 

[McLaren]

So you have driven all 4 cars or just sat in them?

The only one I have not had a chance to fully drive is the Mercedes competition. However, since I have driven the rest of the Accord's German idols to a good pace, I can say that while the Accord may not win any awards for its performance compared to any of Audi's, Merc's, & BMW's cars, the Accord is still not very far off. Again, it's not up with the Germans, but for an Accord, it does a fantastic job on the ride quality, & it gives a hoping feeling that it will only get better.

As for the interior, it's great. Give Honda a couple more years, and it could definitely start giving the Germans a run for their money. Hell, I personally think it could start giving the IS' & a few Acura models a run for its quality & looks now.

But as I asked, have you driven the Accord & its German competition to say the Accord hasn't?

 

[Brett]

I suspect that the VTEC 240bhp would be pretty addictive.

It is incredibly addictive! Driving on an open road makes it very hard to not dip into the throttle. 👍

 

[gator of kana]

I wish the Honda NSX would come back, fast as a supercar without the supercar horespower in the V-tec, but it will never come back. Anyways I've just thought that each car maker is unique, how are they unique you say, Honda for their V-tec engines, Mazda for their rotary engines, Ferrari for making F1 enginuity cars, Mitsubishi for their 4WD technology, and so on

 

[YSSMAN]

But as I asked, have you driven the Accord & its German competition to say the Accord hasn't?

This may be a good time to point out that

THIS:

DOES NOT EQUAL THIS:

...But, the point still stands, both cars are excellent value-priced alternatives to the European competition. Particularly the TSX, I mean, Accord. And the Accord.

GAH!

 

[Tornado]

Particularly the TSX

Maybe before.

 

[YSSMAN]

Certainly. The 2003-2007 Accord continues to be the sedan I measure most cars with, despite the fact that it is now outdated. That was a cracking good job in the EX V6 trim, everything you'd want a $30K car to be. Quiet, refined, dreadfully attractive, comfortable, and surprisingly fast. Its a shame they took part of that formula and threw it out the window with the new one. Same with the transition for the TSX...

 

[gator of kana]

This may be a good time to point out that

THIS:

DOES NOT EQUAL THIS:

...But, the point still stands, both cars are excellent value-priced alternatives to the European competition. Particularly the TSX, I mean, Accord. And the Accord.

GAH!

Thank you for pointing that out because the same thing goes for the Honda Civic

Japan's Civic

Europe's Civic

One of my friends owns a Japanese Civic and it feels absolutely comfortable for a car that is a performance car, I sure can't wait to own one of those myself. I actually want to own every Japanese Import there is

 

[niky]

Warning: Off-topic (much like the rest of this thread! )

In all honesty, I'd take the MX5 too. I make no secret of the fact I believe that you don't need much power to have fun. I like small cars. I even have a soft spot for some pretty crap cars. But I do reckon that if I was handed the keys to the MX5 and the S2000 and asked to take one it'd be hard not to take the S2000. Much as you don't need extra power to have fun, I suspect that the VTEC 240bhp would be pretty addictive.

The steering in the new MX5 isn't fully electric, is it? I thought it was electro-hydraulic. Either way it doesn't feel too artifical from what I could tell. Was certainly more pleasant to steer than the unassisted Mk1 I drove.

It felt great at first, but after a few hours up in the mountains, that's the conclusion we came to... just not enough "feel" through the steering... and this, even from a mate who'd never driven the old Miata. It comes off as being... I don't know... pretty digital. You point it, it goes, and that's it. Countersteering out of a corner was easy, but not as precise as I'd like (the MX-5's a bit soft), and the six speed was a big grotty (word on the Miata boards is that the five-speed is probably the better choice). It's great fun, but I really hope the next MX5 gets an upgraded electric rack with better programming.

Who knows (shrug), could be the tires, too, or the obviously thrashed-on nature of the unit, but I felt that the Mark I, despite having more deadness just off-center, had the more intuitive steering rack.

Then again, maybe I'm an old-school ape who's not happy with a car that doesn't try to tear your arms out of their sockets when your front wheels hit a rut (like mine does).