2008 Fuji GP

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I demand petitions and all the rants and that for Bourdais! This penalty is even more rediculous than the Hamilton one (Spa)!

Petitions didn't even work for Lewis Hamilton on the Belgian GP incident; it sure as hell's not gonna work now.

Besides, I can't defend Bourdais after he himself said this about Hamilton's Spa penalty:

"I don't really understand why there is such a mess around it, there is a rule book and everyone has to obey the same thing. The penalty is rough but it is up to you to give the position back."

So, Sebastien, like you said, "Rules are rules"...take your own 25 second penalty and eat it.

 

[Ardius]

Petitions didn't even work for Lewis Hamilton on the Belgian GP incident; it sure as hell's not gonna work now.

Besides, I can't defend Bourdais after he himself said this about Hamilton's Spa penalty:

"I don't really understand why there is such a mess around it, there is a rule book and everyone has to obey the same thing. The penalty is rough but it is up to you to give the position back."

So, Sebastien, like you said, "Rules are rules"...take your own 25 second penalty and eat it.

I know it wouldn't do anything, but it would catch the attention of certain people in the media, it seemed to last time, though that was because there was general shock.
Despite what Sebastien said, I still think its wrong that this penalty should be any less noticed than Hamilton's at Spa.

On the topic of karma, lol, Nakajima had a dose after taking Alonso out at his 2nd home grand prix, he himself takes some damage at his own grand prix. To be fair on him though, as far as pay/sponsor-drivers go, he's done ok, but like Piquet, he's done little to prove himself worthy of a race seat in F1.

 

[Metar]

In a car as dodgy and inconsistent as this year's Williams, where even hotly-praised Rosberg struggled (with the exception of two lucky podiums, both earned under very special circumstances), I don't think Nakajima did badly - he struggled about as much as Bourdais, I think. He had a couple of blunders - taking out Kubica at Australia and Alonso at Valencia - but otherwise, he's shown to be not quite that slow. His future in F1 is secured, as Toyota's Japanese card and as a Frank Williams favourite, and I'm still impressed by his opening race at Interlagos, when he actually set a faster laptime than teammate Nico - 4th fastest lap of the race.

All three rookies this season had rather difficult cars to learn on: Bourdais and the ever-twitchy STR2 (which was known for a very nervous rear end), Piquet and the difficult early-season Renault, and Nakajima in the sometimes-just-plain-slow Williams.

 

[Ardius]

In a car as dodgy and inconsistent as this year's Williams, where even hotly-praised Rosberg struggled (with the exception of two lucky podiums, both earned under very special circumstances), I don't think Nakajima did badly - he struggled about as much as Bourdais, I think. He had a couple of blunders - taking out Kubica at Australia and Alonso at Valencia - but otherwise, he's shown to be not quite that slow. His future in F1 is secured, as Toyota's Japanese card and as a Frank Williams favourite, and I'm still impressed by his opening race at Interlagos, when he actually set a faster laptime than teammate Nico - 4th fastest lap of the race.

All three rookies this season had rather difficult cars to learn on: Bourdais and the ever-twitchy STR2 (which was known for a very nervous rear end), Piquet and the difficult early-season Renault, and Nakajima in the sometimes-just-plain-slow Williams.

yeah, I know Nakajima is the key to the Toyota engine deal for Williams, hence why he is technically a pay-driver (more an engine-driver, lol).

I think now is a good time to review this year's rookie's and how well they've done:
Timo Glock - started off the season pretty mediocre, all the way up to Monaco. After that though, he started to improve drastically, culminating in that 2nd place at Hungary. He's been in Q3 of qualifying several times now and shown some great speed in a car that's not rubbish but not brilliant either. I'd probably make him rookie of the year. Definitely deserves a second year.
Kazuki Nakajima - as has been discussed, okish season, considering the car he's in. Nothing special but nothing bad. I personally don't see many teams being interested in his skills, more his Toyota backing. Not sure if he deserves a second year, but he's getting one any way.
Nelson Piquet Jr - just crap up until today. One lucky finish and the odd point or two gives the false impression he has some skills, but alas he has not impressed me at all this season, although he did have a rubbish car for most of the season, his teammate showed in many races it was capable of beating anything except Ferraris and McLarens. I hope he can prove me wrong that he does have some skill, but he seems to be lucking his way into results not driving. Doesn't deserve a second year yet I don't think.
Sebastien Bourdais - started the season pretty badly and didn't improve till around Silverstone, where he began to set some very quick sector times. He has impressed me a little bit because of the absurdity of seeing a Toro Rosso regularly in the top ten, but seeing both he and Vettel doing it makes me think its more the engine and car really. Still, today he showed he's not far behind Vettel's pace and that he has what it takes to grab positions in qualifying and race. His only issue seems to be reliable finishes and luck. This season's sob story if there ever was one. Deserves a second year.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

The penalties to Hamilton and Massa, I can understand. The latter colliding with Hamilton and the former forcing Raikkonen a long way off the track. The Bourdais penalty, is completely beyond my comprehension. If Bourdais had a blue flag, then I could understand it, but they were racing for position, and both were in between the white lines! I feel like we are getting to a point in F1 where if contact is made in an overtaking manoeuvre, it is someone's fault, I think we've lost the term Racing Incident.

actually if you look at the pit exit as bourdais is leaving the pit you will see a martial giving a blue flag to bourdais as hes leaving the pit. that same marshall gave a blue flag to everyone as they came out the pits so yes he did have a blue flag.

 

[Metar]

Thing is, what are the alternatives? There really aren't any good up-and-coming stars - they all need another year or more to mature...

 

[kjb]

Greta race by Alonso and Kubica. Is the pressure getting to be too much for both Hamilton and Massa? It seems like race one of them (mainly Hamilton) has a bonehead moment. That first lap by Hamilton was terrible.Did he not see the go signal? I think he's going to give away the championship again.

 

[bicycleshorts]

Also, when Massa overtook Webber he was in the pit lane exit at the time, completely past the white line defining the exit. Is that right? Seems incredibly dangerous. What if there had been a car exiting the pit lane at the time?

Drivers driving on the track are allowed to use it as it is part of the track.

There is absolutely no issue of any rule being broken there.

Not aimed at you Daan, but there definitely should be a rule prevent for that (for the exact above reason). It is dangerous driving, as simple as that. If someone had come out of the pit lane we would've seen a 200mph Massa going into a 60mph car, which would have been devastating.

Webber was pushing him out that way though. He wouldn't have needed to be as close to the line (I don't think all 4 wheels crossed it anyway) if Webber wasn't attempting to block him.

I agree with you here, had it been on the other side of the track and Webber was pushing Massa into the grass he would've been penalised for that (am I right?). So why not this time?

At any rate Massa should have hit the brakes and dropped back in behind him in my opinion. It was a sensible move and he was well within his right to do so, but he should've dropped back when he saw Webber giving him absolutely no space.

Edit: Also, great race to Alonso.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

the whole thing on the massa being pushed into pit lane thing though is i dont think it was intentional by webber. if you look there was an on board picture in massas car as he was going around him in the pit lane area. you clearly see webber looking left to see where massa is though massa was on his right side. so webber was really just trying to find where massa was situated. it just caused him to push massa all the way inside becasue of it.

 

[Metar]

Not quite - Webber probably went right so he'd have the inside on the hairpin - and didn't figure Massa would dare to go even further.

 

[Sureboss]

actually if you look at the pit exit as bourdais is leaving the pit you will see a martial giving a blue flag to bourdais as hes leaving the pit. that same marshall gave a blue flag to everyone as they came out the pits so yes he did have a blue flag.

Then the marshal had it wrong, blue flags definition from BBC Sport:

Shown to a driver to indicate that a faster car is behind him and trying to overtake. Shown both to lapped cars and those racing. A lapped car must allow the faster car past after seeing a maximum of three blue flags or risk being penalised. A racing car is under no obligation to move over.

 

[TheMoose]

Then the marshal had it wrong, blue flags definition from BBC Sport:
Shown to a driver to indicate that a faster car is behind him and trying to overtake. Shown both to lapped cars and those racing. A lapped car must allow the faster car past after seeing a maximum of three blue flags or risk being penalised. A racing car is under no obligation to move over.

Shown to a driver to indicate that a faster car is behind him and trying to overtake. Shown both to lapped cars and those racing.

The car coming out of the pits is going much slower than the car on the track, he should have yielded to the faster car, he didn't & got a penalty.

 

[daan]

There is always a marshall with a blue flag, or a blue light, at the pit exit to warn drivers coming out of the pits that there is faster traffic coming down the start/finish straight. This is shown to every driver as a warning, not just ones that are lapped.

 

[Ardius]

Shown to a driver to indicate that a faster car is behind him and trying to overtake. Shown both to lapped cars and those racing.

The car coming out of the pits is going much slower than the car on the track, he should have yielded to the faster car, he didn't & got a penalty.

I think you missed the most important part:
A racing car is under no obligation to move over.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Shown to a driver to indicate that a faster car is behind him and trying to overtake. Shown both to lapped cars and those racing.

The car coming out of the pits is going much slower than the car on the track, he should have yielded to the faster car, he didn't & got a penalty.

What about this part:
A racing car is under no obligation to move over.



I'm disappointed in Massa. He could have scored some major points, but he forgot how to race.

edit: tree'd, sitting on the post too long

 

[JohnBM01]

It looks like the man in Japan was Fernando Alonso as the Grand Prix of Japan concludes. My congratulations to Fernando Alonso of Spain. Alonso could sweep this three-race series in Asia with a win at China next weekend.

I was looking around for past F1 action around Fuji. The one video I saw online was sadly a tragic race as it was where Gilles Villeneuve was killed in the race. Here's the first five minutes of the race in which we lost Gilles Villeneuve in a vicious crash. I'm only offering this video to show off F1 racing at Fuji before the recent revival of Fuji hosting F1 for the first time in 30 years. Have a look at what F1 at Fuji was like before the track hosted the F1 Grand Prix by checking out this video:



This was the 1977 F1 Grand Prix. The cars and the track have come along better over the years, but that's what F1 was like at Fuji in the past. Well... bring on China! Bring on the Shanghai Circuit! We got a World Championship to decide!

 

[Ardius]

Psst, John, he died in 1982 at Zolder, Belgium. Though two spectators were killed at that Japanese Grand Prix in 1977, thats probably what you got confused.

 

[TheMoose]

I think you missed the most important part:
A racing car is under no obligation to move over.

What about this part:
A racing car is under no obligation to move over.

The car coming out of the pits is significantly slower than a car on a track, unless the slower car is completely clear he needs to yield to the faster car so there is not a crash, SB did not yield to the faster car & what happened...a crash!
SB was shown a blue flag/lights, he did not yield, he made contact with a faster car & caused a crash, he got a penalty, what is so hard to understand about that?

My only problem is why did they wait until after the race to make a decision when there was what, 12 laps left when it happened?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

SB was shown a blue flag/lights, he did not yield, he made contact with a faster car & caused a crash, he got a penalty, what is so hard to understand about that?

Yeah, except it doesn't matter how much faster Massa was if he even was faster, since a racing car is under no obligation to move over.

Massa had to slow down for the corner and instead of giving room to Bourdais, he squeezed him to the inside.

 

[nissan tuner]

TheMoose, I don't think you understand. Cars on the same lap are not obligated to yield for each other by the way of the blue flag. ever.

unless the car is going to be lapped of course which isn't the case here

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, thank YouTube commentators for throwing me off. I always say that I'm human. Honest!

 

[AdamW]

racecar and only_in_f1: yes, sorry, I should have put that more clearly. Of course a broadcaster does the actual filming - the FIA ain't a broadcast operation. Point is that the FIA takes control of the broadcasting of F1 races: they contract some local broadcaster to film each race and they, ultimately, control the footage, providing the exact same footage (as I said) to all other international broadcasters. And as they effectively own and control the footage, yes, they use it for stewards' decisions.

massa apparently trying to blame hamilton for the shunt: "For me, he braked too late and pushed me out of the track."

...except he somehow managed to turn the corner. Pull the other one, mate, this one is distinctly lacking in bells.

on the webber blocking massa thing: he's allowed to do that. He is perfectly entitled to move all the way to the extreme inside of the track, as long as it's only *one* move. He's the leading car, he can drive anywhere he damn well pleases, as long as it's within the track. It's the chasing car's job to get past the leading car wherever he decides to drive.

It would probably have been a safer move for Massa to just duck out and take the regular line, where he'd have got a much faster drive through the corner and probably been able to take Webber easily in the drive up to the next corner. Webber wouldn't have been allowed to bail on his extreme inside line in that situation, because that was his one move: he's made that move, he has to stick to it.

 

[mustang245]

Fernando Alonso. I'm simply stunned by the performance he pulled off today. Just amazing stuff. Kubica's driving was also quite incredible - the battle with Raikkonen must've been tough, but he held on. It's amazing.

I'm glad mustang427 appears to have left, though.

Ha! I'm happy to disappoint you... Alonso's performances have been stunning all season, when looked at in proper context. Pole @ Barcelona, 'surprise' win in Singapore (where he was fastest in Free Practice), etc... and who says he's a poor sport? The Spaniard let Hamilton unlap himself on last lap @ Fuji... Bravisimo! Just keep in mind what Alonso has had to drive to this point. As I have said, the Master will set his house back in order soon enough. Plenty of room in dreamland! Ta Ta...

 

[boci]

Massa probably has a PS3 and GT5P!! Where else could he have learned to punt so well?!

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Where else could he have learned to punt so well?!

His old team mate.

 

[niky]

That's the puzzling part for me... giving Bourdais the penalty... it could have gone either way... if the car in the pits gets clear of the limited lane before the next car comes around, he's got the corner... I was actually expecting the marshals to penalize Massa for that incident...

Oh well... this race just makes the points chase all the more interesting. Bravo, Alonso... he's been driving extremely well all year (yes, I've noticed)... too bad he didn't have a car with which to score in. I'm happy about the Singapore race... he had pace all weekend, only to be let down by the car in qualifying... it was a lucky win, but the luck was that he didn't qualify as well as he should have... Alonso would have been amongst those affected by the numerous yellows if he'd been higher up the tree.

 

[slackbladder]

Hamilton accuses Massa - BBC News
Not too surprising really. And having watched it many times on YouTube I agree (you can't look at it anymore due to them all being taken down by Formula One Management). Considering Massa essentially left the track to get at Hamilton (he would'nt have had the chance if he had stayed on the tarmac) the only option was to hit Hamilton. And Massa's excuse is poor, very, very poor.
I've lost a lot of respect for him now.
As for overtaking through the pit lane exit I don't see how a flag/light system could forsee two race cars at 180mph appearing right in the pit lane exit as a car leaves the pit lane. Clairvoyancy perhaps. It still looked dangerous to me.

 

[Alex.]

Then the marshal had it wrong, blue flags definition from BBC Sport:

Basically as Bourdais left the pits he would've seen the traffic light at the end flashing blue, meaning there are cars about to come past, that doesnt mean he has to let them through, more that he has to be careful of the passing cars. Why the hell a marshall was waving a blue flag is beyond me. Yes Massa was in a faster car just coming off the fastest lap of the race (or not far off) but I dont think that meant Bourdais had to let him past just because he was just leaving the pits.

Also, in other news.

Alonso Willing to Help Massa

Felipe Massa has received the support of double world champion Fernando Alonso as the Brazilian fights for the 2008 F1 championship title. Renault driver Alonso has revealed he will do whatever he can to help Massa winning the championship.

When asked by Spanish reporters if Alonso is willing to help Felipe Massa the Spaniard replied: "Yes, absolutely. If I'm able to help Massa I certainly will."

Felipe Massa finished seventh at the Fuji Speedway while championship leader Lewis Hamilton did not score any points. Massa is, with two races to go, five points behind on Hamilton.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And now lewis thinks Massa deliberately spun him? Dont make me laugh Lewis! All the drivers know how fragile the cars and and will never opt to make any form of contact over not making it. Massa was steering as much left as possible, following the inside kerb and made no purposeful attempt to spin hamilton.

 

[Cultlife]

Hamilton accuses Massa - BBC News
Not too surprising really. And having watched it many times on YouTube I agree (you can't look at it anymore due to them all being taken down by Formula One Management). Considering Massa essentially left the track to get at Hamilton (he would'nt have had the chance if he had stayed on the tarmac) the only option was to hit Hamilton. And Massa's excuse is poor, very, very poor.
I've lost a lot of respect for him now.
As for overtaking through the pit lane exit I don't see how a flag/light system could forsee two race cars at 180mph appearing right in the pit lane exit as a car leaves the pit lane. Clairvoyancy perhaps. It still looked dangerous to me.

I've seen this, and a report on the ITV-F1 website that are blatantly devious journalists, trying to kick up a war.

All The Independant and the BBC seem to have done is taken the words said to Louise Goodman after the race... the quotes are almost identical. The goading questions asked have been removed, making it look like he's said them off-the-cuff - which strengthens the message.

It seems like no-one's been able to get a proper quote from him since, so they have to make SOMETHING. No-one even blinked an eye at what he said yesterday.

That being said, the exception to the rule is the 'It's as deliberate as it can be' quote, which I don't remember him saying... anyone got a video of the interview?

 

[Scaff]

Basically as Bourdais left the pits he would've seen the traffic light at the end flashing blue, meaning there are cars about to come past, that doesnt mean he has to let them through, more that he has to be careful of the passing cars. Why the hell a marshall was waving a blue flag is beyond me. Yes Massa was in a faster car just coming off the fastest lap of the race (or not far off) but I dont think that meant Bourdais had to let him past just because he was just leaving the pits.

Also, in other news.

Alonso Willing to Help Massa

Felipe Massa has received the support of double world champion Fernando Alonso as the Brazilian fights for the 2008 F1 championship title. Renault driver Alonso has revealed he will do whatever he can to help Massa winning the championship.

When asked by Spanish reporters if Alonso is willing to help Felipe Massa the Spaniard replied: "Yes, absolutely. If I'm able to help Massa I certainly will."

Felipe Massa finished seventh at the Fuji Speedway while championship leader Lewis Hamilton did not score any points. Massa is, with two races to go, five points behind on Hamilton.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well that pretty much amounts to an informal request for a drive next year, I bet Renault are overjoyed with that particular comment.

And now lewis thinks Massa deliberately spun him? Dont make me laugh Lewis! All the drivers know how fragile the cars and and will never opt to make any form of contact over not making it. Massa was steering as much left as possible, following the inside kerb and made no purposeful attempt to spin hamilton.

Seriously you are kidding!

Drivers have most certainly been known to deliberatly punt other off the track, you may want to take a look at the actions of both Senna and MS before claiming no one would ever do it.



Regards

Scaff