2008 Montreal Grand Prix

[Philly]

I'm digging up slightly old topics here but....

But why close the exit when the pit lane is open?

Don't all pit lanes have times where the lane is open but the light is red? I don't know why it is that way, but it seems that a car running a red light at a pit out is something that happens at other tracks too.

It's entirely possible that both Lewis and Nico were checking their mirrors for other cars behind them (of which there were a few), or adjusting settings on their steering wheels.

This is possible, but it seems that a driver shouldn't be checking their mirrors for so long that they completely miss such an anticipatable event as cars stopped at a red light.

Looking at the TV footage, the first time I looked for the lights it was actually the blue flashing lights to signify overtaking traffic that I saw first - they seemed a lot more prominent than the red ones. Maybe in the heat of the moment he mistook those for green?

This doesn't change the fact that there were two cars stopped at the red light. When you're driving on the streets, you don't plow straight into a line of cars waiting to go after a light just turned green. Alternatively, if somebody fails to notice that a light you don't gas it into them, but rather honk angrily and try and get them to go, but you don't run into them. Traffic control devices are very useful but that doesn't mean you should ignore other cars on the road.

I agree, that was brilliant opportunism by Massa, and he did the same thing to Trulli at the first corner as well if I remember correctly when Glock messed up and held Jarno up. Massa isn't the most consistant fella but he does know how to race when it matters. I can't believe how far back he came from in that move at the hairpin!

That double pass was incredible. Watching the replay, I was just astonished at how he could have recognized that and gotten himself to make such a risky move from so far back, pull it off and then just pull away in the way he did. It was just an amazing move that would require a lot of balls to pull off.

On top of what Blake said - they are race-drivers, and get paid to win, score, finish high. They're not paid to be polite and safe. You can't trust a race-driver to wait politely for others to pass before he merges into traffic - that second or two he saved there could very well make the difference for him between a podium and regular points or, as we have seen perfectly today, between a potential podium and no points:

Part of getting points is to bring the car home in the first place. Part of being a race driver is being heads up about the cars around you and making sure you don't hit them. Sure, you shouldn't just give in to a driver, but there certainly situations where you have to give in in order to bring your car home at all. Your race boss will much rather you get your car home in 7th than fight for 6th and have it cross the line on a tow truck 24 laps before the end. And there is a reason Sato ended up at Super Aguri...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Whoa, anti-Alonso biased much?

It was a stupid attempt at getting the inner line, in a track that gives little space to do so. I'll give you that, yes. But it makes me wonder if your mind automatically discards every single other mistake to focus only on Alonso's, and blame everything he does.



And this is just an example of the dozens of stupid passing attempts I can remember this year that are significantly worse than the one you mention. But Button isn't as blamable, is he. Please.

A better example would be Coulthard's near-decapitationerific attempt on Wurz at Albert Park last year. When Button hit Coulthard at Bahrain, there was at least an opening; when Couthard had a go at Wurz, the Austrian was already turning in, and the Red Bull driver should have known better, with the end result nearly killing Sir Frank's driver.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's rich! Be sure to hold your breath...
If he falls, he'll have two world titles to fall on. Be sure to pick up Lewis Hamilton's book, 'My Story'. I hear that London book stores are practically giving them away. Epic failure? I'm the original Hamilton 'hater' for no good reason, now I have oh so many... I enjoy watchihg him self-destruct, he's doing Alonso's job better than Fernando could do. McLaren chose him over Hamilton, now they must live with it. Fernando said it best recently, "McLaren doesn't posses winning mentality". JPM, Raikonnen, Alonso now Hamilton. I suppose Lewis has something the others do not?

Yes, I'm sure Alonso can win the 2008 World Drivers' Championship. Assuming he wins every race until he catches Hamilton, who doesn't finish any of them, Alonso won't have passed him until Germany at the earliest, and even then, he still won't be leading the championship. If Kubica stays in the lead, but doesn't score any points like Hamilton, Alonso won't catch him until Hungary (of course, everybody else would have passed him by then). Now that might be three and four rounds in the future, but Alonso would still have to go through Raikkonen, Massa, Heidfeld, Kovalainen, Webber and Trulli, all of whom are ahead of him on points, and all of whom would benefit greatly if Hamilton and Kubica both fail to finish the next three rounds. Alonso might be good, but he's not that good. In fact, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver on the grid who might be able to do it, and that's in the Ferrari, not a dodgy Renault chassis. The chances of Alonso being able to beat Hamilton this year are one in a very large niumber; not odds that I'd play.

Face it, Alonso's had his day. If he looks to leave Renault, no-one is going to be big on employing him; the major teams will view the fact that he only goes a year at a time as instability, while the minor teams won't be able to afford him or his temperament. If he stays at Renault, he'll remedy his flighty problems, but as the team can't seem to be able to produce something new and exciting, he's gong to be in the midfield for a long time to come. Sure, Raikkonen very well may retire at the end of the year, but there's a whole list of names headed by Robert Kubica that's Maranello would be more likely to employ than the Spaniard.

It's cool that you're a fan of his and that you stick by him through thick and thin - I do the same with the likes of Button - but even you have to admit Alonso won't be competing for the title this year in something that can't even beat Honda.

 

[darkfinal]

No, but thank you for asking and not assuming.

Pro-Alonso biased much?

I have links to your pro-Alonso biased posts if you are unsure.

I'm not denying the truth. But you might have links of me praising Hamilton and the rest of drivers in more than an ocassion, which makes me a fan of Alonso, but not a fanboy.

Oh, and do you have any footage of any F1 driver making a pass for position in the *Grand Hotel Hairpin of any Monaco GP over the last ten years?

*Arguably the worst possible place to attempt to make a pass for position in any F1 circuit.

No, I don't, but that's your opinion. I personally don't see what makes that turn worse than, let's say, Spa-Francorchamp's Bus Stop (was it called that way?), where a brilliant Montoya passed Schumacher three years ago. I think that showed there is a chance to pass in most turns.

I suspect had it been Hamilton who made that same move in the Grand Hotel Hairpin, you would have had a field day pointing it out.

Is that what you think? Please check this whole thread again, and try to find the slightest reference to Hamilton's mistake coming from my fingers. There was a time when I'd hate everything related to Hamilton, but now I'm just letting facts speak by themselves.

BTW: How exactly was that a significantly worse pass attempt than what Alonso did? Seriously! If anything deserves a , your suggestion it was worse, let alone significantly worse deserves such a reaction.... and further illustrates your continual favoritism towards Alonso.

Yes, I do still believe that a pass attempt involving higher speeds, wheel locking, lose of direction and jumping (wrecking) over another car is worse than trying to get someone's inside at 40mph.

 

[Brett]

That was an awesome result. Kubica has been doing a great job all year and fully deserves the win and championship lead! :tup: Great job BMW, and great drive Kubica. I really hope he can keep it up, because he’s been the best driver all season so far.

I also hope BMW can keep pace with McLaren and Ferrari, see if we can’t have 3 teams still fighting for the title at the end of the season.

Kubica has been extremely consistent with finishing near the top at each race. I also hope for BMW to keep pace with McLaren and Ferrari; though, I see nothing to suggest that anything other than them keeping pace happening.

As F1Racing cynically pointed out a few months ago: F1 is too sophisticated for spotters. They have telemetry and thousands of sensors feeding data to their Death Star battle stations on pit wall – why do they need spotters?

They should just add another blinking light to the steering wheel .

Technical Director: "Okay, boys, we have a new light on the wheel. If the pitlane is red-lighted at the end, this new LED will flash orange three times at 4-second intervals. Once the pitlane light is green, the LED will flash blue two times at 3-second intervals. This should end any confusion."

Well I was thinking about something like that earlier, but did not say anything for fear of being heavily criticized and because I quickly decided that the steering wheel does not need one more thing added to it.

Congrats to BMW , was so happy yesterday and not just to win but a 1-2 is just icing one the cake . I really hope BMW could keep the momentum up just to keep the championship alive till the end of the season

You and me both. I do not know of a better scenario for Formula 1 of Ferrari, BMW, and McLaren being involved in a Constructor's Championship battle well near the end of the season and Kimi, Hamilton, Kubica, and Massa being in a battle to the end also.

It may be just me, but I'm actually a LITTLE glad there's no race next week.

Formula 1 races are always great to have. But . . .

I always say that Father's Day weekend is about and only about Le Mans for me. I don't care about NASCAR at Michigan, some other series someplace else... it's Le Mans.

I am also looking forward to Le Mans and there being no Formula 1 race should allow for more Le Mans coverage; though, that may not be the case considering SPEED is covering the race.

Okay, I'll set the ball rolling - Hamilton isn't divine. He's a bloody good driver, but not beyond the realms of making mistakes, and silly ones at that.

I think two things fuel the Hamilton fire - one is the UK press bigging him up big time, to a ridiculous degree. Comparisons with Senna and Schumacher are foolish, because he simply hasn't been on this Earth long enough for a valid comparison to be made.

The second are all the people who, for whatever reason, have an irrational dislike of Lewis not related to the over-hyped media coverage. One batch are the Alonso supporters, who probably dislike Lewis as much as Hamilton supporters dislike Fernando thanks to last year. The other batch are other people from all nationalities, who dislike him for a multitude of reasons (not all of which are honourable, unfortunately). It's the constant barrage from these people that's akin to poking a bear with a stick - it's only a matter of time before the Hamilton supporters will get sick of it and attack the doubters.

My comment earlier about this forum being a little more considered in their responses than the F1 group on facebook was because having been on that group recently, it's terrible to see some of the arguements and comments aimed at Hamilton, some of which stray perilously close to race and nationality. At least people here are basing their assumptions on actions on the race track (or I hope they are).

So to conclude - it would be foolish to underestimate Lewis' talent. He's undoubtably made a big impact in F1 and his skill is without question. At the same time, the car has to take some of the praise for his performance, but then this has been the case for virtually any F1 driver. If you put Kimi, Alonso, Schumacher or any top F1 driver in a Force India they'd shine, but they'd certainly have difficulty running at the sharp end.

So can we stop with the "Hamilton is an idiot" comments, the irrelevant comparison to his dad crashing a Porsche, and all of the fanboyish "my driver is better than your driver" comments? 👍

Very nice post! 👍

That double pass was incredible. Watching the replay, I was just astonished at how he could have recognized that and gotten himself to make such a risky move from so far back, pull it off and then just pull away in the way he did. It was just an amazing move that would require a lot of balls to pull off.

Felipe's pass was an amazing one and probably has not received enough attention in this thread. It is not often, as least not as of the last couple years, for someone to make a pass and get by two other drivers at the same time (outside of the opening corners of a race).

 

[Muzaffar]

I'm lost.
Whats with all these Alonso and Hamilton thing here? Please, this has already started from last year, and its still not over!? Fine! Do continue your arguments, and be happy that you can continue your arguments without any infractions. Alonso's car had a problem, spun out and crashed and forced to retire with a mechanical failure. Hamilton did a stupid thing of ramming Kimi out, and does deserved his penalty for his stupidity. Case Closed!

 

[Bram Turismo]

Do they not repeat F1 coverage on TV in Norway?

For those in the US, SPEED TV will be rebroadcasting full coverage of the Canadian GP this Wednesday.

No, they don't


It's been three weeks now that I'm waiting for my new satellite TV tuner, and if I do not get it soon, I'm afraid I'll miss out on Le Mans too. I really don't want to miss out on Le Mans, it's something I've been following since 1999. (And I thank Toyota for giving me the Le Mans bug...)

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Don't all pit lanes have times where the lane is open but the light is red? I don't know why it is that way, but it seems that a car running a red light at a pit out is something that happens at other tracks too.

there are times where pit lane is closed but the drivers can still pit if absolutely necessary they will just receive a stop and go penalty for it. but if the light is red at the end of pit lane you must stop at it seeing as that is for safety reasons it is more like a stop light on the street. you run it and get caught you will get a in trouble for it. and more then just a stop and go you will get DQ'd

 

[Bram Turismo]

What I've been wondering though:

Obviously all the teams and drivers know that pitting in before the green light has been given during a safety car period, is not allowed, why do drivers still do it then? Alonso did it, Heidfeld did it, Webber did it... I mean, are they trying to fool the rules or anything? I just cannot understand why they pit when they clearly know there is a safety car out there, the marshalls are waving the yellow flags, and the light flashes red...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm guessing they're somehow trying to get in, get done and get back out before the light changes. That way they've made their stop and can rejoin in a competitive position without losing time.

 

[Alex.]

In fairness, it does seem that everyone is slaughtering Alonso alot more than anyone else. Massa has made worse mistakes this season, as has Kimi, not to mention the rest of the field.

 

[Roo]

What I've been wondering though:

Obviously all the teams and drivers know that pitting in before the green light has been given during a safety car period, is not allowed, why do drivers still do it then? Alonso did it, Heidfeld did it, Webber did it... I mean, are they trying to fool the rules or anything? I just cannot understand why they pit when they clearly know there is a safety car out there, the marshalls are waving the yellow flags, and the light flashes red...

If the safety car comes out during a pitstop window, the drivers will pit anyway if they're running on fumes; a 10 second stop-and-go is better than retiring from the race having run out of fuel. That rule is under review though, as too many drivers keep getting punished for pitting when the pitlane is closed because they have no fuel left; the top teams want it changed because they lose a bundle of places through no fault of their own, the lower teams want it kept because they have a better opportunity to score points.

In fairness, it does seem that everyone is slaughtering Alonso alot more than anyone else. Massa has made worse mistakes this season, as has Kimi, not to mention the rest of the field.

Kubica and Kovalinen are more or less the only people who haven't made at least 2 daft mistakes this season.

 

[Sureboss]

Why did you put '14/15'?

Missed this earlier, because I wasn't sure how many points Kova has. It's 15.

 

[Bram Turismo]

In fairness, it does seem that everyone is slaughtering Alonso alot more than anyone else. Massa has made worse mistakes this season, as has Kimi, not to mention the rest of the field.

Agreed, it seems like everyone likes to pick on him since he can't really get a good result out of that Renault. 2007 really didn't do him any good, did it?

 

[Only_in_f1]

Heck, if anyone deserved a penalty for reckless driving during the Monaco GP it should have been Alonso for making what arguabley was the worst pass attempt ever in an F1 race over the last ten years are so:

👍 +1

HOWEVER(!!), you cant say for every accident in the past that it should result in a punishment, if so I think you can scrap all overtaking. Piquet's move on the Toyota at the weekend, they touched, good move but they touched which = dangerous? Yes I guess but I dont think you should say for every crash it should be a pen.

Hamilton deserves a penalty. Simple. I dont think we should even debate that.

 

[Sureboss]

ITV apologise over Brundle 'pikey' remark

7 complaints, yet they still issue an apology?

 

[Blake]

It's hard enough supporting Alonso as it is - you don't need to start showing him in a bad light.

Come to the darkside… we have cookies.

Fernando said it best recently, "McLaren doesn't posses winning mentality".

No, not with their 158 GP victories, 11 drivers’ championships or the 8 constructors’ championships. Not a winning mentality at all.

He's got something Fernando hasn't: 38 points.

Well, I don't recieve BBC, so I couldn't know 👍

Another top fact: the BBC no longer broadcasts F1 races, ITV has the contract. Although F1 goes back to the BBC next season.

I think it's safe to say the arguing isn't going to stop until the Hamilton camp admits their guy is not divine, then the anti-Hamilton camp can admit he's a good driver. Which he undoubtedly is, just not quite as perfect as he's believed by some to be.

Blame the British press.

I remember the race report by Peter Windsor in F1Racing for the Spanish GP where Lewis finished 3rd to Kimi and Massa. He wrote all of two lines about the Ferrari drivers and spent the next 4 pages writing about how brilliantly Lewis had managed a weekend where the car was not a match for Ferrari. One of the worst examples of journalism I have ever read, and Mr. Windsor has written a lot of crap like it in the past 18 months.

Oh, and do you have any footage of any F1 driver making a pass for position in the *Grand Hotel Hairpin of any Monaco GP over the last ten years?

Yes. In 2005 Trulli overtook Fisichella at that hairpin (breaking his suspension at the same time) and allowed a whole host of cars past the Renault. See 2:42 into the clip.

Alonso's car had a problem, spun out and crashed and forced to retire with a mechanical failure.

My understanding was that this was something Brundle said. I thought Alonso admitted it was hit fault in a post-race interview, where he said he was trying a different line to get a run on Heidfeld. He touched the marbles and could do nothing after that. Does anyone have a link saying otherwise, because I’m sure this is what Alonso said in his interview with Louise.

Agreed, it seems like everyone likes to pick on him since he can't really get a good result out of that Renault. 2007 really didn't do him any good, did it?

Nor his various explosions at Renault during 2006.

 

[Muzaffar]

My understanding was that this was something Brundle said. I thought Alonso admitted it was hit fault in a post-race interview, where he said he was trying a different line to get a run on Heidfeld. He touched the marbles and could do nothing after that. Does anyone have a link saying otherwise, because I’m sure this is what Alonso said in his interview with Louise.

Well, I thought I couldn't find any evidence about his accident, until I found this:

Just listen to what he said, he said something like "gearbox failure" or something to the pit radio. I don't really know if he "thought" it was a mechanical failure or he just messed up during that corner. But the way he spinned the car was just weird really.......

 

[Bram Turismo]

Man, if Trulli didn't had that problem after that pass, it would be one of the greater passes of that year... Not that I can remember all the passes

 

[PeterJB]

In fairness, it does seem that everyone is slaughtering Alonso alot more than anyone else. Massa has made worse mistakes this season, as has Kimi, not to mention the rest of the field.

To be fair, Piquet has performed several times worse this season that Alonso has. Sutil's results are worse overall than Piquets, but that near 4th place let him off the hook.

 

[darkfinal]

I'm lost.
Whats with all these Alonso and Hamilton thing here? Please, this has already started from last year, and its still not over!? Fine! Do continue your arguments, and be happy that you can continue your arguments without any infractions. Alonso's car had a problem, spun out and crashed and forced to retire with a mechanical failure. Hamilton did a stupid thing of ramming Kimi out, and does deserved his penalty for his stupidity. Case Closed!

Right, I just let my nerves take control of myself way too often. ¬¬

Come to the darkside… we have cookies.

But we have PAELLA! And sunny summers!

Kubica and Kovalinen are more or less the only people who haven't made at least 2 daft mistakes this season.

I'd take Kovalainen off that list and leave Kubica alone there. Remember Australia?



Could that count as 2 daft mistakes? Pretty please?

 

[Roo]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. He's on his first warning, then.

 

[Bram Turismo]

What was that all about?

 

[darkfinal]

What was that all about?

If you mean Heikki's video, that was when he accidentally pushed the speed limiter button right after passing Alonso in the last lap of the race, giving away that fourth position.

 

[mustang245]

Do you race?-
I don't know how this evolved from a 'fall' to winning the 2008 WDC? At no point have I or any other sane person predicted Alonso to win this seasons WDC, although I have done the math! It is a year of rebuilding at Renault and nothing more. However, if someone could bridge such a gap Alonso could be the one to do it, given the inconsistencies of the front runners. But unlikely. Hence the 'stupid' pass at Monaco, Alonso had nothing to lose, I venture we'll see alot of that. And when it works it'll be declared 'genius'. Had Massa's double-pass failed he'd suffer similar derision. Yet, he gambled and pulled it off... such is Grand Prix! At this point, I just hope to see Alonso on podium, something I thought was possible until his spin at Montreal.

 

[Bram Turismo]

If you mean Heikki's video, that was when he accidentally pushed the speed limiter button right after passing Alonso in the last lap of the race, giving away that fourth position.

No way, that's one epic fail...

 

[Metar]

*Arguably the worst possible place to attempt to make a pass for position in any F1 circuit.

Yes, but look at your own pictures - had the car actually stuck to the inside instead of aquaplaning to the outside, it would've worked. Massa did something of a similar principle now at Canada, with the grass being the Loew Hairpin's bricks.. It's not that terrible, and I don't see why you should bring it up for the third time now..

Yes, it was a silly move, and he might very well have ruined both races - but it's not the worst in 10 years, by far.

Heck, even the commentators of the race, who were praising Alonso earlier and over the last few races for his great car control, absolutely berated him over the broadcast for making such a ridiculous pass attempt.

And I'll let you guess how the German commentators on RTL responded to it. The whole race gave them so much firepower - the Alonso/Heidfeld clash, the Raikkonen/Sutil crash, Rosberg's meeting with Piscine...

Part of getting points is to bring the car home in the first place. Part of being a race driver is being heads up about the cars around you and making sure you don't hit them. Sure, you shouldn't just give in to a driver, but there certainly situations where you have to give in in order to bring your car home at all. Your race boss will much rather you get your car home in 7th than fight for 6th and have it cross the line on a tow truck 24 laps before the end. And there is a reason Sato ended up at Super Aguri...

Yes, but you can't trust a driver who earns his bread by finishing high to safely wait for a long line of cars, some of whom may be his immediate competitors. If he already risks career, life and limbs trying to set fast laps or overtake (though, lately, it's just the car)

Come to the darkside… we have cookies.

Only muffins will convince me.

Yes. In 2005 Trulli overtook Fisichella at that hairpin (breaking his suspension at the same time) and allowed a whole host of cars past the Renault. See 2:42 into the clip.

I recall a race in the '80s (1985, I think?) with some sort of epic pass in the Loew's Hairpin, too. Surprisingly, it looks very much like Alonso's move, sans aquaplaning into the rival.

My understanding was that this was something Brundle said. I thought Alonso admitted it was hit fault in a post-race interview, where he said he was trying a different line to get a run on Heidfeld. He touched the marbles and could do nothing after that. Does anyone have a link saying otherwise, because I’m sure this is what Alonso said in his interview with Louise.

From what I read, it was a regular spin - as he said, he tried a different line and visited the marbles - but that the result was a broken gearbox (not caused by the impact), which forced him to retire instead of continue chasing an out-of-points finish.

Sutil's results are worse overall than Piquets, but that near 4th place let him off the hook.

Yes, but Sutil is in the slowest car, at least since Aguri pulled out, so even finishing 16th would count as good. Problem was the fact he never finished more than 10 laps total until Istanbul...

No way, that's one epic fail...

Sad, but true.

 

[homeforsummer]

This is possible, but it seems that a driver shouldn't be checking their mirrors for so long that they completely miss such an anticipatable event as cars stopped at a red light.

This doesn't change the fact that there were two cars stopped at the red light. When you're driving on the streets, you don't plow straight into a line of cars waiting to go after a light just turned green. Alternatively, if somebody fails to notice that a light you don't gas it into them, but rather honk angrily and try and get them to go, but you don't run into them. Traffic control devices are very useful but that doesn't mean you should ignore other cars on the road.

I agree, but not often on the street do you find yourself coming from a standstill, accelerating up to 50mph in a very short space of time to find two cars in front of you have gone from 50-0 in an even shorter space of time. With the McLarens' pit box being right at the end and the other cars very likely braking to a halt just as Lewis had got up to pit lane speed, he may well have just realised too late that they'd stopped, especially if he was checking in his mirrors to see whether another car would come past him

It's quite likely that he had his mind on Nico behind him, who ironically made exactly the same mistake as Lewis, though is attacting far less criticism because he's a fair bit less love/hate than Lewis.

Another thing to point out in general would be something someone else mentioned, that even *if* Lewis had stopped in time, chances are Nico would have punted him into the back of Kimi anyway!

 

[Metar]

Not just chances, but considering Nico crashed into him at a significant speed at a place when the Ferrari and McLaren were already "shortened", it's fairly certain that a stopped Lewis would still shove his wing up Kimi's diffusor.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Or maybe Nico would see Lewis slowing down and slow down in time