2009 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

[Peter]

Anyone want to bet that Hamilton is the lightest person in the field?

 

[The Outlaw]

He is probably the lightest in the field, but not by as much as one might expect (probably about the same as RBR and lighter than BGP). He will certainly have enough pace to blitz the field on his first stint. So Hamilton for the win without one doubt in my mind.

It was mentioned that his Pole was the biggest gap to P2 since Hungary 2005

 

[Bram Turismo]

Anyone want to bet that Hamilton is the lightest person in the field?

Seeing he has topped the field with Button all three sessions, I'm not going to take that bet. I suspect Button on an uber-heavy load though...

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Hamilton seems determined to win this race. The race itself might be closer if he indeed is running light, but I think he's still top o' the field.

 

[Prince.M5]

Fantastic qualifying session it was!! Great one for the last time for the BMW and they really impressed me a lot... Tremendous one from Hamilton as he was way faster than any other drivers out there during the session. Red Bull was a little surprise coming from nowhere. Kobayashi did a very good job should I say but still I believe more to come from him in the race. Beautiful track it is and when the sunset, it gets darker and it gets even more fabulous!!! Great one!!!

 

[Ardius]

What's up with Fisi all the way down there? Fisichella is yet to be even close to a strong finish position in the Ferrari. It's nearly as if Badoer is still driving that Ferrari, only that he's changed his name.

I think it says more about how hard the car is to drive without prior testing with KERS.
Apparently with KERS, the braking changes from corner to corner and its even worse when there is a KERS malfunction. Clearly neither Fisi nor Badoer could adapt to this constantly changing feature of the F60.

What you are seeing is the effect driving style has - its only a few tenths but it means a lot in F1, and it happens in all formula. This is why I don't use spec-series as a "true" test of skill, because the cars are always going to favour one driver's style over another. In the same sense, I think this is why Fisi can't push much with this car, it wasn't designed the same way as the Force India.
I think it would be fair to assume that the VJM002 was tailored more to Giancarlo's style, maybe also that both Sutil and Liuzzi have similar styles too.

Best example of spec series being terrible for telling talent - compare Hamilton, Kobayashi, Piquet Jr and Grosjean from their GP2 to F1 careers.

I also wonder if Giancarlo's style doesn't like having that odd ballast of the KERS unit.


Anyways, Grosjean has spun himself out of a seat next year by now surely. He's getting worse than Piquet - at least Nesinho could keep it on the road for one session!
Amazing job by Hamilton, great to see Button go for it and I will be watching Buemi and Kobayashi with much interest.

 

[The Outlaw]

I think it says more about how hard the car is to drive without prior testing with KERS.
Apparently with KERS, the braking changes from corner to corner and its even worse when there is a KERS malfunction. Clearly neither Fisi nor Badoer could adapt to this constantly changing feature of the F60.

What you are seeing is the effect driving style has - its only a few tenths but it means a lot in F1, and it happens in all formula. This is why I don't use spec-series as a "true" test of skill, because the cars are always going to favour one driver's style over another. In the same sense, I think this is why Fisi can't push much with this car, it wasn't designed the same way as the Force India.
I think it would be fair to assume that the VJM002 was tailored more to Giancarlo's style, maybe also that both Sutil and Liuzzi have similar styles too.

Best example of spec series being terrible for telling talent - compare Hamilton, Kobayashi, Piquet Jr and Grosjean from their GP2 to F1 careers.

I also wonder if Giancarlo's style doesn't like having that odd ballast of the KERS unit.


Anyways, Grosjean has spun himself out of a seat next year by now surely. He's getting worse than Piquet - at least Nesinho could keep it on the road for one session!
Amazing job by Hamilton, great to see Button go for it and I will be watching Buemi and Kobayashi with much interest.

The best drivers on the grid are able to adapt well ENOUGH to pretty much any trait of the car, and are able to make the most of it and just get on with the damn show.

I was watching some of the onboard footage from Fisi during qualifying today, and to be frank it didn't even look like he belonged in F1 👎 Very poor and inconsistent reads on braking, with crap steering input and lines (constantly feeling for grip even though he wasn't close to the limit), and his throttle application was pretty late and not aggressive.

The VJM002 is a relatively easy car to drive...once he was thrown into the F60 he's looked completely overwhelmed by the complexity and challenging nature of the car. I just don't think he has the outright talent of some of the big names in the sport to drive such a beast in the way Raikkonen or Massa were...that's the easiest way to put it without making excuses for the old dog.

That's another reason why I want to see Button in a car that is difficult to drive (like the F60 or the MP4-24 earlier in the season), as we all know how picky JB is with car set-up and any negative handling characteristic (loose rear especially). I really doubht he would have nearly the confidence in his abilities to push like Hamilton and Raikkonen have shown throughout the season on their skateboards

 

[Roo]

Fuel weights:

Pos  Driver                             Weight (kg)
 1.  Hamilton     McLaren-Mercedes        658.5
 2.  Vettel       Red Bull-Renault        663.0
 3.  Webber       Red Bull-Renault        660.0
 4.  Barrichello  Brawn-Mercedes          655.0
 5.  Button       Brawn-Mercedes          657.0
 6.  Trulli       Toyota                  661.0
 7.  Kubica       BMW-Sauber              654.5
 8.  Heidfeld     BMW-Sauber              664.0
 9.  Rosberg      Williams-Toyota         665.0
10.  Buemi        Toro Rosso-Ferrari      661.5
11.  Raikkonen    Ferrari                 692.0*
12.  Kobayashi    Toyota                  694.3*
13.  Kovalainen   McLaren-Mercedes        697.0*
14.  Nakajima     Williams-Toyota         704.0*
15.  Alguersuari  Toro Rosso-Ferrari      696.5*
16.  Alonso       Renault                 708.3*
17.  Liuzzi       Force India-Mercedes    695.0*
18.  Sutil        Force India-Mercedes    696.0*
19.  Grosjean     Renault                 710.8*
20.  Fisichella   Ferrari                 692.5*

Unless Hamilton can scamper off into the distance, Vettel to win.

 

[Ardius]

The best drivers on the grid are able to adapt well ENOUGH to pretty much any trait of the car, and are able to make the most of it and just get on with the damn show.

I was watching some of the onboard footage from Fisi during qualifying today, and to be frank it didn't even look like he belonged in F1 👎 Very poor and inconsistent reads on braking, with crap steering input and lines (constantly feeling for grip even though he wasn't close to the limit), and his throttle application was pretty late and not aggressive.

The VJM002 is a relatively easy car to drive...once he was thrown into the F60 he's looked completely overwhelmed by the complexity and challenging nature of the car. I just don't think he has the outright talent of some of the big names in the sport to drive such a beast in the way Raikkonen or Massa were...that's the easiest way to put it without making excuses for the old dog.

That's another reason why I want to see Button in a car that is difficult to drive (like the F60 or the MP4-24 earlier in the season), as well all know how picky JB is with car set-up and any negative handling characteristic (loose rear especially). I really doubht he would have nearly the confidence in his abilities to push like Hamilton and Raikkonen have shown throughout the season on their skateboards

I'm sorry but even Hamilton and Alonso can't do more than the car is capable of. Point in case, where is Alonso today?
Hamilton struggled to get anywhere earlier in the year - is he rubbish like Fisichella too? Or is it a case of one rule for drivers you like and another rule for drivers you don't?

Maybe he isn't getting the most out of the car, but then only being 3 tenths off Kimi at times isn't terrible considering the problems he has adapting to the car.

Fisi is definitely one of those drivers who is on and off, I will agree on that. He is not brilliant but he is good on his day. Somehow I get the smell of the usual "you're only good as your last race". All I will agree on is that he isn't good in the F60 - whether its a measure of his skill or not I don't agree on.

 

[The Outlaw]

I'm sorry but even Hamilton and Alonso can't do more than the car is capable of. Point in case, where is Alonso today?
Hamilton struggled to get anywhere earlier in the year - is he rubbish like Fisichella too? Or is it a case of one rule for drivers you like and another rule for drivers you don't?

Don't be sorry because you're responding to something I never said or implied. I was comparing their relative performances to their teammates. That doesn't mean they're supermen and are able to extract the 1-2 seconds needed out their arse to competitive at all times

Maybe he isn't getting the most out of the car, but then only being 3 tenths off Kimi at times isn't terrible considering the problems he has adapting to the car.

3-4 tenths is massive...the difference between being great and not staying in F1 nowadays. Look at Piquet Jr...who you love so much jk

Fisi is definitely one of those drivers who is on and off, I will agree on that. He is not brilliant but he is good on his day. Somehow I get the smell of the usual "you're only good as your last race". All I will agree on is that he isn't good in the F60 - whether its a measure of his skill or not I don't agree on.

There you go making excuses for your old beloved drivers again...what's new 👎 You might as well make the same excuse for every driver that has been dramatically outperformed by their team mate..."oh the car didn't suit their style...you can't measure his skill when he underperforms" Just sounds like one big giant excuse to me to hang on to your love for an old, experienced driver. If it were a new guy in his seat you would be bickering about how quickly they should be thrown out of the seat

...

 

[Roo]

You said:

The best drivers on the grid are able to adapt well ENOUGH to pretty much any trait of the car, and are able to make the most of it and just get on with the damn show.

Ardius said:

I'm sorry but even Hamilton and Alonso can't do more than the car is capable of.

You never mentioned anything about teammates and the relative performances thereof.

As an example, Hamilton likes an oversteery car. Kovalainen likes a neutral-understeery car. If McLaren builds a car that tends to oversteer, Heikki - or any other understeer-preferring driver - is going to be on the back foot before they've turned a wheel. Having a car that compliments your driving style is hugely important, and that applies to all motorsports, not just F1.

 

[The Outlaw]

The best drivers on the grid are able to adapt well ENOUGH to pretty much any trait of the car, and are able to make the most of it and just get on with the damn show.

And how does this in ANYWAY imply that they are able to be competitive with the best machinery, when they are in completely uncompetitive cars? Making the most of it and getting on with the show means exactly that - adapating to the car and getting the most out of it in anyway situation. That's all that means Something Fisi has been unable to do, as the results have clearly shown. And of course the car has a potential limit for a lap time despite the drivers ability...I'm not that stupid

As an example, Hamilton likes an oversteery car. Kovalainen likes a neutral-understeery car. If McLaren builds a car that tends to oversteer, Heikki - or any other understeer-preferring driver - is going to be on the back foot before they've turned a wheel. Having a car that compliments your driving style is hugely important, and that applies to all motorsports, not just F1.

And being able to adapt (which is my main argument) to a cars handling traits is just as important as anything else. Alonso is probably the best at extracting the maximum potential out of any car he is given, although he likes a balanced car, he has absolutely no problem handling a loose rear end or understeer. Most of the drivers who like a understeer dialed in simply don't have as much talent as the drivers who can handle a loose rear...because the understeering car is the easiest car to drive, and in most cases slower.

What else do I need to say?

 

[Pescara for GT5]

Fisichella should have stayed with Force India, at least there is made sense when he did bad.

 

[The Outlaw]

Fisichella should have stayed with Force India, at least there is made sense when he did bad.

I agree. I have a rather large bit of Italian heritage in my blood so I can clearly see why he wanted to drive for Ferrari so desperately But looking back he must have a bit of regret though, as his move to Ferrari has only made him look like the laughing stock of F1 (getting beat by rookies left and right, etc.), and has basically left him without a seat for next year. He basically got thrown into the least competitive Scuderia race car in well over a decage...which is quite unfortunate for him

At least he still has the test driver role for Ferrari, but that's not really much to get excited about given the limited testing there is in F1. But I must say, just being part of the Scuderia team is something special in its own right though, especially for a full blooded Italian 👍

 

[Ardius]

Most of the drivers who like a understeer dialed in simply don't have as much talent as the drivers who can handle a loose rear...because the understeering car is the easiest car to drive, and in most cases slower.

What else do I need to say?

That is only an example Roo used, in Fisi's case its to do with brake balance and its changable behaviour along with the weight distribution of the car and the effect KERS has on it.
If we stuck Alonso in the same car in the same situation, I don't think he would do that much better a job, maybe a little bit faster but then like I originally said, you cannot know if it will suit their style or not.

 

[Ian Poole]

- Into the chicane
- Into the switchback
- Into the bottom corner
- Into the first corner (if the guy in front screws up)
- Into the turn seventeen (as above)

Th chicane i presume you mean turns 4 & 5, good shout

Bottom corner i presume is the corner at the end of the mile long straight, good shout

First corner is a good shout as well

Gonna disagree with you on turn seventeen if that is the corner after the two fast sweepers as a general passing move but agree is the guy in front screws it up

What r u on about with the switchback?

Fuel weights:

Pos  Driver                             Weight (kg)
 1.  Hamilton     McLaren-Mercedes        658.5
 2.  Vettel       Red Bull-Renault        663.0
 3.  Webber       Red Bull-Renault        660.0
 4.  Barrichello  Brawn-Mercedes          655.0
 5.  Button       Brawn-Mercedes          657.0
 6.  Trulli       Toyota                  661.0
 7.  Kubica       BMW-Sauber              654.5
 8.  Heidfeld     BMW-Sauber              664.0
 9.  Rosberg      Williams-Toyota         665.0
10.  Buemi        Toro Rosso-Ferrari      661.5
11.  Raikkonen    Ferrari                 692.0*
12.  Kobayashi    Toyota                  694.3*
13.  Kovalainen   McLaren-Mercedes        697.0*
14.  Nakajima     Williams-Toyota         704.0*
15.  Alguersuari  Toro Rosso-Ferrari      696.5*
16.  Alonso       Renault                 708.3*
17.  Liuzzi       Force India-Mercedes    695.0*
18.  Sutil        Force India-Mercedes    696.0*
19.  Grosjean     Renault                 710.8*
20.  Fisichella   Ferrari                 692.5*

Unless Hamilton can scamper off into the distance, Vettel to win.

You can take Vettel all u want but i am gonna stick with my original prediction and go for Webbo.

Anyone like to take money on Heidfeld or Rosberg for an outside podium?

 

[Roo]

*snip*

What else do I need to say?

Nothing more - I misunderstood your post, but that clears it up 👍

The other problem Fisi has is he's driving a Ferrari that's no longer being updated - the majority of the R&D work being put into the 2010 car, even if it's just a continuation of the '09 motor.

 

[Ardius]

Buemi for surprise podium

If only, maybe I can hope for some of the engines to go kablam, especially the RBR's.

I think a Brawn will win, can't decide which.

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Is it me or do Brawn have a Playstation network symbol on there rear wing?

 

[Ian Poole]

Buemi for surprise podium

If only, maybe I can hope for some of the engines to go kablam, especially the RBR's.

I think a Brawn will win, can't decide which.

As much as i know you would love to see me agree with you, jsut can't!

Unless Hamilton/Vettel/Webber retire, don't see it happening.

 

[Alex.]

Car weights: Hamilton lighter than RBR as Renault fuel up

31 October 2009 / Results / Photos

Lewis Hamilton will be carrying more fuel into the start of Sunday's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix than the Red Bull pairing of Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber behind him


1 - Lewis Hamilton / McLaren = 658.5kg *
2 - Sebastian Vettel / Red Bull = 663.0kg
3 - Mark Webber / Red Bull = 660.0kg *

fail

 

[The Outlaw]

Buemi for surprise podium

If only, maybe I can hope for some of the engines to go kablam, especially the RBR's.

I think a Brawn will win, can't decide which.

Brawn for the win!? Unless Hamilton retires or has serious issues....there's not a chance in hell! I hope you're joking around haha

Hamilton's pole lap on slightly more fuel than the Brawn's was nearly a second quicker....not to mention he has KER's w/ Mercedes power to keep pretty much the entire field behind.

My money is on the best driver and the best car (for this circuit) for the win by a landslide...and that's Hamilton in the Mclaren 👍

 

[yeti]

And being able to adapt (which is my main argument) to a cars handling traits is just as important as anything else. Alonso is probably the best at extracting the maximum potential out of any car he is given, although he likes a balanced car, he has absolutely no problem handling a loose rear end or understeer. Most of the drivers who like a understeer dialed in simply don't have as much talent as the drivers who can handle a loose rear...because the understeering car is the easiest car to drive, and in most cases slower.

What else do I need to say?

Doesn't Alonso prefer an Understeery car?

C.

 

[The Outlaw]

Doesn't Alonso prefer an Understeery car?

C.

He PREFERS a understeer to nuetral balance...although he can work with and be quick with any type of balance....many others struggle to do so.

Pat Symonds once said that one of Fernando's biggest assets (and sometimes his biggest flaw) is his ability to "drive around" the problems in a car. He sited this as a fualt because when he first came to Renault he would neglect setup (apparently) because "I can drive it anyway" lol. But Alonso has surely become much more technically oriented and interested in getting the set-up perfected since then...

 

[yeti]

He PREFERS a understeer to nuetral balance...although he can work with and be quick with any type of balance.

Is that you just shooting your theory in the foot?

Or are you admitting that Alonso "simply don't have as much talent"

C.

 

[Ardius]

Brawn for the win!? Unless Hamilton retires or has serious issues....there's not a chance in hell! I hope you're joking around haha

Hamilton's pole lap on slightly more fuel than the Brawn's was nearly a second quicker....not to mention he has KER's w/ Mercedes power to keep pretty much the entire field behind.

My money is on the best driver and the best car (for this circuit) for the win by a landslide...and that's Hamilton in the Mclaren 👍

See, here's where you and me differ in many views, you seem to have a clear single choice on who is good. Whereas I believe almost all drivers and teams are good.

Brawn have a chance to win, yes, Hamilton has better chances, but its not impossible for Brawn to win.
As Murray would say "Anything can happen, and in F1 it usually does!".

 

[The Outlaw]

Is that you just shooting your theory in the foot?

Or are you admitting that Alonso "simply don't have as much talent"

C.

How is being able to work with any type of balance "simply no having as much talent? The key word is that he PREFERS an understeer-neutral balance...

 

[Bram Turismo]

Honestly I think this one's Hamilton's. Or Button takes a really good start so that he's in a position to keep the gap to Hamilton on a minimum. But as I see it now, with Hamilton's form throughout the weekend, and such a large gap with only 5 kilos of fuel less, all my money is on Hamilton.

 

[The Outlaw]

See, here's where you and me differ in many views, you seem to have a clear single choice on who is good. Whereas I believe almost all drivers and teams are good.

Brawn have a chance to win, yes, Hamilton has better chances, but its not impossible for Brawn to win.
As Murray would say "Anything can happen, and in F1 it usually does!".

I shouldn't even waste my time responding to your garbage...I mean really?

BGP has next to no chance of winning unless Hamilton has major issues...that's just being realistic, not being biased or being a fanboy as you are, thinking Brawn will pull off the win lol. Both Brawn cars have less fuel than the 3 cars in front...are slower than the P1 car by nearly a full second per lap, and don't have KERS to help them at the start or to overtake. Your logic makes great sense and is very reasonable 👍

Kobyashi for the win! "Anything can happen, and in F1 it usually does" Blah Blah Blah!!!

 

[Ian Poole]

Kobyashi for the win! "Anything can happen, and in F1 it usually does" Blah Blah Blah!!!

Someone call him the white coats