2009 Brazilian Grand Prix

prisonermonkeys

prisonermonkeys

Be Fearless
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Hammerhead Garage
Tuesday's here, and with it, the thread on the race. We're in the final stages of the championship, and there's still fourteen points in it. Whatever happens on Sunday, Jenson Button will leave Brazil with a four point advantage over Barichello and six points on Vettel. As they obviously both can't have a win, Vettel and Barrchello will be fighting to see who is in the box seat to take the fight to Button in Abu Dhabi ... if the Briton doesn't seal it here. Fourth or fifth plae will be good enough to take the title depending on who wins the sixteenth round of the 2009 FIA Formula One World Championship,

XXXVIII Grande Prêmio do Brasil
from the Autódromo José Carlos Pace at Interlagos

Interlagos.jpg


Take a lap of Interlagos with Jarno Trulli

Lap Record - 1:11.472
(Juan Pablo Montoya, BMW Williams, 2004)

2008 Results
1st - Felipe Massa (Scuderia Ferrari)
2nd - Fernando Alonso (Reault)
3rd - Kimi Raikkonen (Scuderia Ferrari)

2009 Standings after fifteen rounds
Jenson Button (Brawn-Mercedes) - 85pts
Rubens Barrichello (Brawn-Mercedes) - 71pts
Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull-Renault) - 69pts

The title was decided at the final corner of 2008, and just as in 2007, the championship comes to Brazil with three people still in the hunt. A good points finish means Button will be unchallenged going into Abu Dhabi - or at lest very difficult to beat - but as history has shown us, it isn't over until everyone has crossed the line.​
 
I think you mean, whatever happens, Button will leave with AT LEAST a 4 point lead over RB and 6 over SV.
 
My guess for this race is: Brawn, McLaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, Toyota. Barrichello is the favourite for this race, but Button shouldn't finish too far behind, which could easily give him the championship.
 
vettle has been extremely lucky to still be lasting on the engines hes had. he should be fine this race with the engine only being used at monza. button im sure is going to be playing it safe but he needs to watch out how safe he plays it. i know anyone behind him will push him because they know he wont put up much of a fight looking at the bigger picture but if he lets people push him around to much it will be just as bad as if he did get wrecked out from fighting for position. hes got a thin line to walk this weekend.
 
I've heard Barrichello has a curse or whatever you might call it when it comes to Brazil. I just hope that's not the case come Sunday, hopefully he will either be on podium, or outright win. I have no problem really with Jensen winning the WDC, just after he slashed through the first half of the season, it's a little bit of a let down seeing as he's been so cautions lately. Though you need to keep all four wheels and bodywork on to win the championship, so I guess he's doing his part. Just not quite as spectacularly as he was in the first half of the season. That being said, I'd much rather Rubens win the title, having it be decided in the very last race at Abu Dhabi. Seeing as it was "wrapped up" back in Monaco as some said (not here) that would be kind of funny IMO. In any case, who ever does clinch the title this year, has never done so before. Yay for Friday practice!
 
Even if Ruebens wins both the final races, Jenson only needs a 5th and a 6th, from the last 2 races, to win the WDC. If Ruebens' car is good enough to win, Jenson's will be only a small margin away. They are harldy ever more than 2 places from each other.

On the other hand, Alonso, Kimi and Lewis are driving well enough to stick a spanner in the works, if BOTH Red Bull cars perform which highly likely on this track.
If Vettel can win the final 2 races, this will mean Jenson needs to score only a 6th and 7th in these last 2 races.

No matter what the outcome of this race is, the year has been a tale of 2 halves, ensuring the run to the end of the championship, has been exciting.
 
You know, a lot of people are saying Button is over-rated or undeserving of the title because he's underperforming or - more likely, IMHO - his car is no longer as dominant as it once was, but I think it's more exciting this way. It now becomes a race to see how long he can keep his grip on the title; if he were still as dominant as he had been, he would have won the title a few races ago and everyone would be rubbed the wrong way because he dominated it.

In short, people like complaining, and are happier when there is more to complain about.
 
Race between the future champions :)

This is going to be exciting!!! Now how about a wet race like last year??? I would love to see one instead of a dry race... But if it's wet, who do you guys think going to win???

I reckon Button would wrap up the title here... Sorry RBR and Vettel fans.... I also agree that Button is actually over-rated and undeserving the title to be honest...
 
i wouldnt say hes overrated i would say hes just been to conservative thinking about his championship position and finishing in the points instead of not finishing at all. but a wat race i would say it would go vettles way out of the 3 contending. though im sure hamilton and a few other wet weather guys would like to throw there hat into the ring for the win. though its hard to say who would win in the wet seeing as its questionable of if qualifying will be dry and how the order would be stacked. the wet races just throw everything out of whack
 
If Button wins it, he'll deserve it.

Nobody has ever won a "fair" championship. Someone is always going to have a "faster" car... or a "better" car. The one exception I can think of would probably be Fernando Alonso... who, through heroic qualifying performances and canny racecraft kept the faster McLarens and Ferraris at bay for two years to win his championships. Thus, even though I don't like his prima donna attitude, he gets my nod as a fantastic driver.

The championship is Button's to lose. If he manages to hold onto good results, despite the rediscovered speed of the Ferraris, McLarens and Toyotas... then he deserves it.
 
interludes
Because he's no longer in the best car?

The person who wins the championship is always the most deserving.
Click to expand...

Well it's not the case of he's in the best car or not... If he wins, techincally he deserve it but on my opinion, he doesn't because he won the championship and he take advantage while the rest of the field suffer earlier this season... But lucky enough to see McLaren and Ferrari also Red Bull try to fight back...

I just don't like someone to take advantage of the championship while the rest still suffer... I want to see real fight like what happen now... Now we can see who really deserves it... Vettel or Button... But I reckon it's Button by the way... The one who is truly deserve the championship title is the one who fights throughout the season like in 2005 with Fernando Alonso that rivaled Kimi Raikkonen for the title...

*Note that these are just my opinion...
 
KidrauhlM5
Well it's not the case of he's in the best car or not... If he wins, techincally he deserve it but on my opinion, he doesn't because he won the championship and he take advantage while the rest of the field suffer earlier this season... But lucky enough to see McLaren and Ferrari also Red Bull try to fight back...

I just don't like someone to take advantage of the championship while the rest still suffer... I want to see real fight like what happen now... Now we can see who really deserves it... Vettel or Button... But I reckon it's Button by the way... The one who is truly deserve the championship title is the one who fights throughout the season like in 2005 with Fernando Alonso that rivaled Kimi Raikkonen for the title...
Click to expand...
What was he supposed to do, drive around at 50km/h slower than he could simply because he had the best car? What kind of stupid logic is that? The winner of the championship is always the person who takes advantage of the situation. Michael Schumacher had the best car in 2004, and he did exactly that. Hamilton and Alonso were locked in a duel in 2007 and Kimi Raikkonen exploited it in Brazil. Every single World Champion has been the person who has made the most of his situation.

And Jenson Button has fought for position, ever since Turkey. He's had to scrape and haul the car home and pick up as many points as he can. He has scored in each and every race with the exception of Belgium when Grosjean took him out; and even then, he would have been on-track for points. The thing that has made 2009 different to every other season is that even when Button has a bad run of it, his rivals seem to as well. Red Bull keep making stupid mistakes in the pits. Barrichello can't seem to take advantage of a stronger qualifying positon. Button might not be fighting for race wins, but he's not in a race-winng car anymore. Everyone else has fought back and made stronger cars; the second half of 2009 has pretty much been Jenson Button vs. The World. He has endured their assaults by taking a point here and three points there. One by one, the championship contenders have fallen by the wayside; Raikkonen is out, Hamilton followed suit and now Webber has joined them. No, he hasn't done it with a devastating drive that has taken three out in one fell swoop. Given he opportunity, he would do that, but now that he's in a car that is about third or fourth best behind the McLarens, Red Bulls and maybe the Ferraris, be can't exactly do that. Fifth or sixth on the road is the best place he can hope for as his default (as Fisichella and Kovalainen are having a hell of a time). This championship isn't being fought out over race wins, but over points places. Hamilton will likely win again before the season is out; Raikkonen may threaten.

Who is there that is more deserving than Button? No-one has risen to the occasion. Vettel has more DNFs than race wins to his name this season. Barrichello has been all over the place with stupid mistakes and general frustration. Hamilton has been his own worst enemy, binning it on no less than four occasions - Australia, Monaco, Germany and Monza - when he had a shot at some real points. Webber has had too many mistakes in the pits. And Raikkonen needed a fire under his belly to inspire him to do something. The only other person who could have vaguely done something about it was Nico Rosberg, and he fell out of favour a long time ago. If they're suffering, it's from their own mistakes. Who wouldn't take advantage of that? Ever since Great Britain, Button has had to drive the wheels off just to pick up a handful of points. Do you honestly believe he's just not trying hard enough simply because he's not winning?

If you were in Button's position, you would have taken the advantage when it was offered. You've got the best car and everyone else is busy falling all over themselves. If you're not going to go for those race wins, you have no place in Formula One, and you'd probably be worthy of the inevniable title of World's Biggest Sucker. Let's put you in Button's shoes for a moment, at Suzuka. Heikki Kovalainen runs into Adrian Sutil and they spin. You're following behind: what do you do next, pull over and wait for them to sort themselves out before getting back to it? Or do you take advantage of that situation and coast through to a points place, one from which you could stage an attack on the other drivers in the championship battle? If you decided to do the former, I'm sorry, but you probably shouldn't be allowed out in public unsupervised. The argument that Button doesn't deserve his title because he played his hand right early in the season is one of the stupider ones that I've heard. If anybody is unworthy because they're not fighting for the title, it's Sebastian Vettel, Rubens Barrichello, Mark Webber, Kimi Raikkonen and Lewis Hamilton because they're the ones to blame for Button getting away. They had the opportunity to fight back, and none of them took it. And now look where they are: three of them are out of the running and even if the other two win in Brazil, they'll still be behind Button.
 
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[/rant] ;)

Although I agree with all you said.

I worked out the championship permutations for the race this weekend a few days ago, because I’m cool and get laid a lot:

  • If Jenson finishes on the podium, he wins regardless;
  • If Jenson finishes 4th or 5th, Barrichello has to win, Vettel is out;
  • If Jenson finishes 6th or 7th, Barrichello has to finish 1st or 2nd, Vettel has to win;
  • If Jenson finishes 8th, Barrichello has to finish 1st, 2nd or 3rd, Vettel has to finish 1st or 2nd;
  • If Jenson finishes 9th or lower, Barrichello has to finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th, Vettel has to finish 1st or 2nd.

Bear in mind if the points are tied, Jenson wins the championship based on the number of race wins.

Personally, my dream Brazilian GP result would look like this:

1. Barrichello
2. Hamilton
3. Button
4. Rosberg
5. Webber
6. Kubica
7. Nakajima
8. Fisichella

Won't happen, but I'd like to think it would.
 
niky
If Button wins it, he'll deserve it.

Nobody has ever won a "fair" championship. Someone is always going to have a "faster" car... or a "better" car. The one exception I can think of would probably be Fernando Alonso... who, through heroic qualifying performances and canny racecraft kept the faster McLarens and Ferraris at bay for two years to win his championships. Thus, even though I don't like his prima donna attitude, he gets my nod as a fantastic driver.

The championship is Button's to lose. If he manages to hold onto good results, despite the rediscovered speed of the Ferraris, McLarens and Toyotas... then he deserves it.
Click to expand...

Keke Rosberg. ;)
 
Roo
Personally, my dream Brazilian GP result would look like this:

1. Barrichello
2. Hamilton
3. Button
4. Rosberg
5. Webber
6. Kubica
7. Nakajima
8. Fisichella

Won't happen, but I'd like to think it would.
Click to expand...



Why couldn't it happen? Kaz and Fisico could have a very good car in the (wet)💡. And everyone else looks very plausible. You might not be that far off. Now we need to wait and see if Vettel's car would have a mechanical failure because he doesn't make much mistakes, well...not enough to boot him out of the points anyways.
 
I'll say it this way:

If Vettel manages to get the championship in Abu Dhabi, I'll cry. I'll cry tears of pure happiness.
 
interludes
Because he's no longer in the best car?

The person who wins the championship is always the most deserving.
Click to expand...

Weren't u the guy that said that Hamilton was undeserving of the title aswell and went on a rampage to just nittpick everything he said and does?
 
Appie
Weren't u the guy that said that Hamilton was undeserving of the title aswell and went on a rampage to just nittpick everything he said and does?
Click to expand...
What, a guy's opinions can't change?

I may not like Hamilton, but I like him more than I once did. I believe a poor car is the best indicator of a driver's ability and maturity, and while Australia was a low point for McLaren, their entire hopes and dreams for 2009 have fallen to Hamilton given Kovalainen's dour performances, and Hamilton has taken up the charge accordingly. Like I said, he still makes mistakes unbecoming of a World Champion, but no-one is perfect.
 
Sorry for the broken post earlier due to a problem with my internet connection...

I'm very sorry interludes... Agree with you and he deserve the title... Maybe I was a little bit stressed out with the fight of Nick Heidfeld... Nevermind...

Anyway, I still don't like it but who cares... I'm terribly sorry again.. :(
 
There's absolutely no point in arguing that Button isn't a deserving Champion, as that would be blind to almost all of the results of the past decade or more, regardless of luck, unfair advantage, etc ;) :lol:

For me, the only reason I think Button is overrated is because he is so damn picky with car set-up, to suit his rather "fixed" driver style which ONLY works well with a sharp/consistent front end and planted rear (lots of balance)...which is a hard set-up to find, especially when tracks conditions are constantly changing, and the new tires are quite temperature dependent with their small window of ideal operation temp.

Undoubtedly if the car works for him then he's just about as fast as anyone, as he has shown many flashes of brilliance earlier in the season when the car was working more consistently for him. But when it doesn't (which often times it doesn't) he is rather lack luster to say the least, as we've seen him get outpaced by his team mate in practice and qualy the majority of the latter part of this season...and I wouldn't consider Ruben's a top 5 driver either (nowadays), sorry to say.

It's also funny listening to his radio transmissions and comments from Ross Brawn during the practice and qualy session of late...just about all you hear is him (Button) moaning about a slight push or oversteer that causes him to barely scrap his way into Q1 by a hair :odd: Although I always get a giggle out of listening to his radio transmissions, as he's often barking like a rabid dog who is quite hard to comprehend :lol: But that's behind the point of course...:dunce:

IMO, a Champions "Champion" and the world class drivers just go out there and drive the crap out of the car regardless, and make the car work well enough for them to still be quite competitive...like Kimi in his F60 pig (out scoring everyone through most of the 2nd half of the season) or Lewis in the MP4-24 (which no way in hell should have been nearly as good at Suzuka as the Brawn). Of course it's hard to mention Alonso, as he is stuck in one of the worst cars on the grid, but still manages to put in extremely solid and CONSISTANT performances (qualifying after qualifying, race after race) considering what a peice he has to work with.

When I look at Button's performances this year, I can't say I'm overly impressed with the overall skill level he has shown :ill: If Schumacher or Alonso was driving the Brawn they would have wrapped title up 5 races ago...no question in my mind about that :lol: My 2 cents
 
I'm not going to say that Button doesn't deserve the title, but I am going to say that I hope he doesn't win it.

1. Barrichello
2. Vettel
3. Nico
4. Kimi
5. Hamilton
6. Button
7. Trulli
8. Buemi
 
interludes
You mean you went to Wikipedia.
Click to expand...

Nope. I actually worked it out, with actual maths.

Edit: Just checked Wikipedia, and yes, it's there too. Not too sure what I'd stand to gain from claiming a Wikipedia submitter's work as my own though :confused:
 
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niky
If Button wins it, he'll deserve it.

Nobody has ever won a "fair" championship. Someone is always going to have a "faster" car... or a "better" car. The one exception I can think of would probably be Fernando Alonso... who, through heroic qualifying performances and canny racecraft kept the faster McLarens and Ferraris at bay for two years to win his championships. Thus, even though I don't like his prima donna attitude, he gets my nod as a fantastic driver.

The championship is Button's to lose. If he manages to hold onto good results, despite the rediscovered speed of the Ferraris, McLarens and Toyotas... then he deserves it.
Click to expand...

I can remember Schumacher in 95, Senna in 91, Prost in 86, and Piquet in 83.

But on the Button discussion, there are a few things to consider. His oponents this year (Barrichello, Webber, and Vettel) are not the best drivers in the grid. Also if you think about the points he got in Spain and Germany over Barrichello (which many would consider to be deliberate by the team) the difference between the two would be 8 points only. But the difference between him and the other drivers is his consistance. As far as I remember he never had a bad strategy, a mechanical failure, or a driving error, while the opposition was plagued by them throughout the year.
 
Button has scored points in all but 1 race so far. In order to be world champion, you need to beat your rivals, in this season his rivals have had trouble finishing reliably and so he wins for his consistencey. Nothing wrong with that but at the same time he can be compared to other champions and perhaps ranked a tier lower. This does not mean he is an undeserving world champion.

timeattack07gt
For me, the only reason I think Button is overrated is because he is so damn picky with car set-up, to suit his rather "fixed" driver style which ONLY works well with a sharp/consistent front end and planted rear (lots of balance)...which is a hard set-up to find, especially when tracks conditions are constantly changing, and the new tires are quite temperature dependent with their small window of ideal operation temp.

Undoubtedly if the car works for him then he's just about as fast as anyone, as he has shown many flashes of brilliance earlier in the season when the car was working more consistently for him. But when it doesn't (which often times it doesn't) he is rather lack luster to say the least, as we've seen him get outpaced by his team mate in practice and qualy the majority of the latter part of this season...and I wouldn't consider Ruben's a top 5 driver either (nowadays), sorry to say.

It's also funny listening to his radio transmissions and comments from Ross Brawn during the practice and qualy session of late...just about all you hear is him (Button) moaning about a slight push or oversteer that causes him to barely scrap his way into Q1 by a hair :odd: Although I always get a giggle out of listening to his radio transmissions, as he's often barking like a rabid dog who is quite hard to comprehend :lol: But that's behind the point of course...:dunce:

IMO, a Champions "Champion" and the world class drivers just go out there and drive the crap out of the car regardless, and make the car work well enough for them to still be quite competitive...like Kimi in his F60 pig (out scoring everyone through most of the 2nd half of the season) or Lewis in the MP4-24 (which no way in hell should have been nearly as good at Suzuka as the Brawn). Of course it's hard to mention Alonso, as he is stuck in one of the worst cars on the grid, but still manages to put in extremely solid and CONSISTANT performances (qualifying after qualifying, race after race) considering what a peice he has to work with.

When I look at Button's performances this year, I can't say I'm overly impressed with the overall skill level he has shown :ill: If Schumacher or Alonso was driving the Brawn they would have wrapped title up 5 races ago...no question in my mind about that :lol: My 2 cents
Click to expand...

Hmm, well all the drivers have that ideal car setup they prefer, if you put Raikkonen in the Brawn he may not necessarily dominate - it may not suit his driving style. (this is also a rather big problem with rating drivers in spec-series, because naturally the cars are going to suit some drivers over others).

I agree to an extent that he doesn't drive out of his comfort zone, however, to mention Alonso and refer to his consistent and solid performances while criticsing the only driver who has scored in all but 1 race this season baffles me. Button is consistent, perhaps not in qualifying performances but then its the race that counts and I think some overlook the fact that this season has been extremely close with the performance gaps between the cars. The difference between Q3 and Q1 is so small nowadays that little niggly problems in setup do amplify into a difference of being on pole or 10th or lower.

Its easy to look at the statistics and say that Button isn't qualifying as well as at the start of the season, but this misses an important factor - at the start of the season Brawn were visibly ahead of the competition. Now that the other teams have caught up, people seem to think that Button isn't trying as hard or something. Why is it unbelievable to think Button is still performing as well but the car just isn't so dominating? Why is it beyond the imagination to think Button is putting in the 0.2s difference to make up for his car's lack of performance but its being outweighed by developments and improvements by other teams?

I think that people aren't happy because its not their favourite driver, or its more easy to criticse him. I personally believe almost all today's drivers in F1 are the best of the best and that there are so many factors which effect race-by-race (or even session-by-session) performance that its difficult to judge each driver in such simple terms as "he doesnt try hard enough". I also doubt putting Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher, Senna or whoever in the exact same Brawn car in the exact same season with the same circumstances would necessarily bring about better results. There is just too many things to take into account, in this current season and comparing older seasons.
 
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interludes
Because he's no longer in the best car?

The person who wins the championship is always the most deserving.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say he's put up a Champions performance in the last 10 races or so. Since Turkey Button has scored 26 points, Barrichello has scored 36 points, and Vettel has scored 40 points. Vettel has failed to score five times and he is STILL in the title hunt. Barrichello has failed twice, and Button once.

Buttons scored one podium finish since Turkey and Barrichello has won two races where he was genuinely the fastest, whereas with several of Buttons victories he capitalized on the misfortunes of others (e.g. Turkey and Bahrain).

If it rains, Vettel's got it in the bag.
 

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