2009 Brazilian Grand Prix

If it rains, Vettel's got it in the bag.

Whoa, time out!

Interlagos is a circuit, in my opinion and that dont count for 🤬, that favours the Force India cars and iuf it rains, throw Sutil into the mix
 
Whoa, time out!

Interlagos is a circuit, in my opinion and that dont count for 🤬, that favours the Force India cars and iuf it rains, throw Sutil into the mix

I agree with Peter, Vettel has it if it rains. 4th at this track last year, he's won a few races in the wet now and he's obviously in the 2nd best car. Why does he need to time out?
Sutil on the other hand hasn't won a race, is in the 4th or 5th best car based on this type of circuit performance and has had some decent performances in the wet. However, not all of them ended well.
 
Hmm, well all the drivers have that ideal car setup they prefer, if you put Raikkonen in the Brawn he may not necessarily dominate - it may not suit his driving style. (this is also a rather big problem with rating drivers in spec-series, because naturally the cars are going to suit some drivers over others).

I agree with you, BUT more so what I was trying to get across is that Button's driving style is one that lends itself to being especially finicky to chassis set-up and tire efficiency. It was obvious that the car (when set-up perfectly to his liking) works quite well for him (say 95%+ optimal setup) in Qualifying...but when he has issues with the set-up, he's clearly well off pace and often struggles to get into Q1. He isn't able to adapt to uncomfortable handling characteristics as well as say Hamilton, and especially Alonso (watch Alonso's driving style from his Championship days to now...there is a huge difference in his style to maximize the tires potential). And this is exactly why I would rate him a "tier" below the more elite drivers.

IMO, Button's comfort zone isn't nearly as large as some of the others. He's simply fixed in a smooth driving style which can hurt when the front end doesn't work perfectly (on turn in and throughout the corner) to his liking or when the back is overly loose and twitchy. Basically if the car isn't perfectly balanced and maximized in terms of traction, or 95% of the way there, he isn't very impressive in terms of raw pace. In no way does this discount a WDC if he does pull it off this year though 👍 Just pointing out that I personally thinks he's a bit overrated in that regard...nothing wrong with that IMO 💡


I agree to an extent that he doesn't drive out of his comfort zone, however, to mention Alonso and refer to his consistent and solid performances while criticsing the only driver who has scored in all but 1 race this season baffles me. Button is consistent, perhaps not in qualifying performances but then its the race that counts and I think some overlook the fact that this season has been extremely close with the performance gaps between the cars. The difference between Q3 and Q1 is so small nowadays that little niggly problems in setup do amplify into a difference of being on pole or 10th or lower.

DOMINATING the first half of the season, winning 5 races in a row to what he has achieved in the latter half of the season, thanks to lackluster qualifying results is not as consistent as you write it up to be...at least not comparable to Alonso's performances :odd: That should be pretty clear I would think :dopey: The Brawn has been one of the most reliable cars of the field, so it is expected for him to at least score a point in each race he finishes đź’ˇ..not much to write home about by scoring a point in each race, in a car that should EASILY still be in the top 3 strongest regardless of the circuit. The Brawn is also a very strong car when loaded with fuel and seems to do exceptionally well in terms of race pace (one of the strongest)...they just struggle with Qualifying set-up as I mentioned...so where's the consistency in that?

Its easy to look at the statistics and say that Button isn't qualifying as well as at the start of the season, but this misses an important factor - at the start of the season Brawn were visibly ahead of the competition. Now that the other teams have caught up, people seem to think that Button isn't trying as hard or something. Why is it unbelievable to think Button is still performing as well but the car just isn't so dominating? Why is it beyond the imagination to think Button is putting in the 0.2s difference to make up for his car's lack of performance but its being outweighed by developments and improvements by other teams?

Never did I question Buttons's motivation in the second half the of the season.. .as I don't see that being an issue, especially at this level of competition. That's all BS created by the media who has absolutely no clue the talent and motivation it takes to get to where all these men are. It's clear the Brawn is still one of the top 3 cars on average (possibly number two on tracks where KER's isn't a blatant advantage), so I don't see much reason for Button to be commonly out qualified by Barichello, while having a rough time making it into Q1...unless he's really not that good...or not as good as the top 3 drivers on the grid.

I think that people aren't happy because its not their favourite driver, or its more easy to criticse him. I personally believe almost all today's drivers in F1 are the best of the best and that there are so many factors which effect race-by-race (or even session-by-session) performance that its difficult to judge each driver in such simple terms as "he doesnt try hard enough". I also doubt putting Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher, Senna or whoever in the exact same Brawn car in the exact same season with the same circumstances would necessarily bring about better results. There is just too many things to take into account, in this current season and comparing older seasons.

I agree for the most part...but some things are quite clear, like Button's inconsistencies in qualifying :lol:

...
 
Well, I just don't find the fact Button's "incosistencey" appeared at the same time a significant Red Bull upgrade did (and subsequently many other team's in the following races) a coincidence. Perhaps you do.

I already pointed out qualifying performances are difficult already thanks to the small gap in performance between the teams nowadays, the fact Button makes it up in the race and has almost always finished in points is somehow not considered consistent? Not to mention the fact we have different fuel strategies in Q3 which affects the qualifying positions but doesn't necessarily mean he qualified badly.
Lets have a look at Alonso/Button qualy comparison anyway shall we?
Australia - 12th/1st
Malaysia - 10th/1st
China - 2nd/5th
Bahrain - 7th/4th
Spain - 8th/1st
Monaco - 9th/1st
Turkey - 8th/2nd
Britian - 10th/6th
Germany - 12th/3rd
Hungary -1st/8th
Europe - 8th/5th
Belgium - 13th/14th
Italy - 8th/6th
Singapore - 6th/12th
Japan - 12th/7th (before penalties)

Other than Belgium and Singapore, I'd say Button's qualifying performances have been quite consistent really seeing as that doesn't take into account fuel levels, where in some races he would have run heavier (not to mention all those races where Alonso ran extremely light). You can see after Britain that as the Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari all start to catch up, he starts to stuggle taking the front row spots.

I can't be bothered to collate all the fuel data as well and calculate who specifically was more consistent, but I imagine it would also show Button hasn't been that bad in qualy over the season.
 
In regards to the latter half of the season (wasn't talking about the first half to begin with), I hardly call that consistent (considering what the car is STILL capable of) performances from Button, despite taking into account the major upgrades from RBR and especially Mclaren (which is still quite an inferior package on the high DF circuits where KERS isn't as much of an advantage).

As far as Alonso is concerned, we clearly know he qualified quite high on a few occasion because the team would use an extremely aggressive strategy, as they had no hope in the championship regardless. Alonso's performances make much more sense and look more consistent when you take into consideration factors like KERS, DF traits, and engine power...Button's do not! Especially when we saw Ruben's out qualify him by a landslide in the past few races. Button's qualifying performance at Belgium and Singapore were horrid for a car that easily should have had the potential to make it into the top 5 with a flawless drive (right?)...sorry to say, but there is no excuse to why he shouldn't have made it out of Q2 driving the BGP. He's a consistent POINTS SCORER (in a car that probably has the 1st or 2nd best race pace)...but I can't say the same for his qualy performances.

Monaco - 9th/1st
Turkey - 8th/2nd
Britian - 10th/6th
Germany - 12th/3rd
Hungary -1st/8th
Europe - 8th/5th
Belgium - 13th/14th
Italy - 8th/6th
Singapore - 6th/12th
Japan - 12th/7th (even though there were other drivers who let off for the yellow and never got a final flier in)

I'm not exactly sure why I'm being dragged into this subject in particular, as all I was portraying in my prior post is that Button hasn't shown that he is the class of the field (top 3 driver) in the latter half of the season ,when the other teams were able to make ground. I think that's pretty clear with his performances of late...as he's now getting his geting whooped on by Barichello (far from being the best driver on the grid) for what reason??? :odd:
 
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You're being dragged into it because I think you're over-rating the ability of the car in comparison to its rivals in the 2nd half of the season (have we just completely forgotten Brawn's period where they stuggled with tyre temps?).
I wouldn't say Barrichello has flat beat Button in qualifying, he hasn't been that far off, not to the degree you're trying to suggest.
 
You're being dragged into it because I think you're over-rating the ability of the car in comparison to its rivals in the 2nd half of the season (have we just completely forgotten Brawn's period where they stuggled with tyre temps?).
I wouldn't say Barrichello has flat beat Button in qualifying, he hasn't been that far off, not to the degree you're trying to suggest.

I don't know why you keep falling on the argument that the BGP 001 isn't still a highly competitive, top tier package, that can't easily make Q1 and qualy in the top 4-5 at LEAST. Ruben's in the later part of the season has been showing that the car is still at least a top 3 car (on the whole) in qualifying...not sure why you think Ferrari (look at Fisi's performance in the F60 compared to the FI!) or any other team other than RBR or Mclaren have really made MASSIVE enough strides on Brawn to surpass them. Even if Macca is now able to split the two purely on having a car good enough on a proper layout (with a driver extracting full potential at ALL TIMES), that doesn't explain Button's under performance in the latter half of this season. I think you have to look at things a little deeper than you are.
 
Reanult to change to retro livery? Could be.
It was never going to happen. There was nothing a special liver would do for two races that the current one doesn't already do.
 
I never specifically mentioned Ferrari, I was actually referring to McLaren, Red Bull, Force India, Williams and Toyota (and Renault and Sauber to an extent).
All of those teams have made improvements or have made the most of tracks that have suited their car, whereas the Brawn has not really suited anywhere specifically, seemingly being the best all-rounder (and why its a championship-winning car).
But I will always contest that the Brawn could have gone any faster than it did.

The Ferrari (after double diffuser and other upgrades) seems to also be an all-rounder, though not as good as the Brawn as it wasn't designed to use the DDD and lugs around KERS.
 
I never specifically mentioned Ferrari, I was actually referring to McLaren, Red Bull, Force India, Williams and Toyota (and Renault and Sauber to an extent).
All of those teams have made improvements or have made the most of tracks that have suited their car, whereas the Brawn has not really suited anywhere specifically, seemingly being the best all-rounder (and why its a championship-winning car).
But I will always contest that the Brawn could have gone any faster than it did.

The Ferrari (after double diffuser and other upgrades) seems to also be an all-rounder, though not as good as the Brawn as it wasn't designed to use the DDD and lugs around KERS.


Not sure about that...in reality they only won the Championship thanks to their 7 race sprint to start off the season, where they were able to REALLY capitalize on the DDD advantage and strong chassis/engine package. Ferrari not having Felipe around also helped Brawn's WCC hopes, as he would have likely snagged a lot of points from Brawn as they started to fade out at the half way point in the season...which would have helped RBR massively toward the end of the season.

I agree that Brawn do have the best all around car for the requirements of each circuit, but they have failed to perform that well of recent...showing that their drivers aren't quite as special as say Hamilton, Kimi or Alonso. If anything Brawn and especially Button have been underachieving in the 2nd half of the season, while the guys mentioned above have been overachieving...I still think that's quite clear despite the fact that they (especially Macca) have made solid advancements in pace since Australia. The bottom line is that there is no reason why Button should have had to drag the Championship out this long, risking losing it with two races to go after such an absolute dominating start to the season.

Also, I'm not sure why you say Toyota has made any type of steps forward...if anything they've gone the other way around since the start of the season, with only two impressive finishes in the later part of the season. The rest of the 2nd half of the season was pretty abysmal for them, going by the results.
 
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I hope Button wins the title, he deserves it, I hope a Force India Car wins the race though, they have shown massive improvement and done well in below average equipment.
 
Interesting information regarding Barichello's surge in the 2nd half of the season, in comparison to Button.

"However it is not all about the Brawn’s lack of pace, as Barrichello has scored 36 points since Silverstone. At the beginning of the season he had a problem with the brakes on his car and the solution he found early on meant he wasn’t able to run the rear wheel covers on his car on some occasions, which made it slower.

Since he has found a fix for his braking issues, he has set the pace, outqualifying Button in six of the eight races from Silverstone onwards and finishing ahead of him in four, with one retirement for Button."
 
You know - I'd noticed that... I always wondered why Rubens didn't have the rear brake covers - and Button did... Thanks for that piece of info.

C.
 
I knew Button was rubbish. :dopey:
 
Interesting information regarding Barichello's surge in the 2nd half of the season, in comparison to Button.

"However it is not all about the BrawnÂ’s lack of pace, as Barrichello has scored 36 points since Silverstone. At the beginning of the season he had a problem with the brakes on his car and the solution he found early on meant he wasnÂ’t able to run the rear wheel covers on his car on some occasions, which made it slower.

Since he has found a fix for his braking issues, he has set the pace, outqualifying Button in six of the eight races from Silverstone onwards and finishing ahead of him in four, with one retirement for Button."

So Barrichello struggling with his brakes is different to Button struggling with tyre temps?
 
All this talk of whether Jenson's good enough or deserves it, is rather irrelevant. He is there, that's all that matters.

Back to topic. Sao Paulo is in the same character type of circuit as Suzuka, with emphasis on the driver being able to string a series of turns together(sector 2) to achieve a good lap time.

With this in mind Vettel in the Red Bull will be a likely choice as a pace setter.
Webber should be able to defend S.V. as a wingman, and hold off any challengers. But Mark seems to able to shoot himself in the foot somehow.
If indeed S.V. can win, he will apply more pressure to J.B. than any other point in the season. This will ensure what sort of a driver he really is.

A similar result to Suzuka would be my guess, so Button will have to wait until the end of the final race, to see if he is the champion, deserved or undeserved.
 
So Barrichello struggling with his brakes is different to Button struggling with tyre temps?

I never inferred that, simply posted INTERESTING facts from another website :) Take it for what it's worth...nothing more, nothing less ;)

Back to topic. Sao Paulo is in the same character type of circuit as Suzuka, with emphasis on the driver being able to string a series of turns together(sector 2) to achieve a good lap time.

With this in mind Vettel in the Red Bull will be a likely choice as a pace setter.
Webber should be able to defend S.V. as a wingman, and hold off any challengers. But Mark seems to able to shoot himself in the foot somehow.
If indeed S.V. can win, he will apply more pressure to J.B. than any other point in the season. This will ensure what sort of a driver he really is.

A similar result to Suzuka would be my guess, so Button will have to wait until the end of the final race, to see if he is the champion, deserved or undeserved.

I agree. I believe we will see similar results to Suzuka, but with Toyota likely falling off the map again in typical fashion...unless they really have sorted out their tire issues. Webber will most likely come back with an impressive performance which will only help Vettel's cause (I would hope :scared:) and hurt Brawn. I think Hamilton with the KER's will definitely be able to challenge for a podium again or possibly a win depending on what happens to turn 1. RBR tested a new wing on Webber's car during the race at Suzuka (set fastest race lap) so they obviously have some more tricks up their sleeve for this race to absolutely lay the smack down again. Raikkonen in the F60 with the KERS will likely be quite strong again, despite no updates to the package, so I'm sure he'll be looking to leapfrog Brawn in typical fashion...just too bad Massa's not there to help :( I believe this race is really going to bring about some exciting results, especially if Alonso and Kovi can capitalize on their KERS and get around the Brawn cars...it will definitely bring the Championship down to the wire at Abu Dhabi, which is stil quite the unknown...
 
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So it looks like its going to be a wet race, should make things interesting...

Thinking Vettel will do well, Button will beat Rubans and Hamilton will win the race.

Button will finish 7th or higher, so its double celebrations for Button & Brawn on their respective world titles.
 
Back to topic. Sao Paulo is in the same character type of circuit as Suzuka, with emphasis on the driver being able to string a series of turns together(sector 2) to achieve a good lap time.
I have to disagree. Interlagos has medium speed corners while Suzuka has fast speed corners. While Suzuka favours cars like Force India because of its turns and RBR because of the low track temperatures, Interlagos will have hot temperatures (unless it rains) which favours Brawn and medium speed corners and elevations which favours McLaren. The hope for RBR in this race is if it rains, otherwise it's gonna be on Brawn's hands.
 
I have to disagree. Interlagos has medium speed corners while Suzuka has fast speed corners. While Suzuka favours cars like Force India because of its turns and RBR because of the low track temperatures, Interlagos will have hot temperatures (unless it rains) which favours Brawn and medium speed corners and elevations which favours McLaren. The hope for RBR in this race is if it rains, otherwise it's gonna be on Brawn's hands.

I sure doubt anything will be in Brawn's "hands" even if the weather plays to their favor, which more than likely won't, as rain looks quite possible for the entire weekend. RBR has already made some rather large advancements on Brawn, especially since Singapore, and the updates will continue to come at this track to. Brawn isn't the strongest car on any circuit at this point...they're still in the top 3 as far as strongest cars overall, but they are not the strongest guaranteed, even on their most favorable circuit ANYMORE (key word being "anymore", as RBR's pace has dramatically increased from early to mid season, when they were still considered quite quick. While Brawn has probably had the least advancements of any team throughout the season, which I think is fairly obvious as we close in on the last race). I suspect the RBR would probably be about 3 tenths quicker than the Brawn in Q3 at Interlagos, even despite their power disadvantage.
 
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I'd agree that Interlagos is nothing like Suzuka.

I think Ferrari will be strong but my outside bet for the win is Trulli in the Toyota.
 
Well I can't say anything for now on who would win... But I think Brawn has got a chance here... Perhaps Trulli could throw out some surprises like last year.... Ferrari is a question mark here because they've stopped their development process but would it affect their performance this weekend???

EDIT : Interlagos is absolutely nothing like Suzuka... The track characteristic isn't the same at all...
 
The weather forecast predicts temperatures not greater than 25 throughout the weekend with a great chance of rain. So even if it doesn't rain, that should give some advantage to RBR.
 
I'd agree that Interlagos is nothing like Suzuka.

............. but my outside bet for the win is Trulli in the Toyota.

If Interlagos has no characteristics like Suzuka, then why would you say Trilli in a Toyota is a bet you would place.
The Toyota is a car very sensitive to track dynamics, and it performed well on the Suzuka layout.
Your choice is to pick a car that has a hit and miss ratio all year, and you call the Interlagos track nothing like the last curcuit yetsurely to pick this car the style should be similar to where it has done well before......I don't follow your reasoning.



EDIT : Interlagos is absolutely nothing like Suzuka... The track characteristic isn't the same at all...

It's all about using the throttle for a lengthy period of time is what I meant by character type.
Some of you must have driven the track in some games...yer?
If you are outside the right line from turn 6 onwards to turn 11 you lose the lap totally, as with Suzukas turn 1 to the top of the hill, if the throttle is to strong or lift off too early the lap is shot to bits.

Not too many other tracks string a non full throttle series of turns together that's all I meant. I thought some of you would have recognized this. I was just setting the scene for my next comment about Vettel.
 
It's all about using the throttle for a lengthy period of time is what I meant by character type.
Some of you must have driven the track in some games...yer?
If you are outside the right line from turn 6 onwards to turn 11 you lose the lap totally, as with Suzukas turn 1 to the top of the hill, if the throttle is to strong or lift off too early the lap is shot to bits.

I would disagree. If you miss the apex for turn 6, it'll only affect 7 and 8. And it won't completely ruin you lap like if you screw up at 3 in Suzuka. Furthermore, this is a matter of driving and is not related to the cars. For example, Force India did well at Suzuka, but you should expect them to be further down the field.

On a different note, considering the elevation at Interlagos and how it's a track that's relatively demanding on the engines, I wonder how Vettel is gonna suffer in terms of reliability.
 
On a different note, considering the elevation at Interlagos and how it's a track that's relatively demanding on the engines, I wonder how Vettel is gonna suffer in terms of reliability.

Well probably not too bad if it rains of course. The weather forecast looks quite unpredictable at the moment...but it sounds like rain on race day, moreso in the afternoon. But of course it's hard to predict that accurately :dunce: Should be one hell of a weekend :)
 
Brawn aren't just running Ipatavia decals for Brazil; they've picked up local energy drink TNT, while their front wings have Banco do Brasil and the engine cowling now reads Mapfe
 
If Interlagos has no characteristics like Suzuka, then why would you say Trilli in a Toyota is a bet you would place.
The Toyota is a car very sensitive to track dynamics, and it performed well on the Suzuka layout.
Your choice is to pick a car that has a hit and miss ratio all year, and you call the Interlagos track nothing like the last curcuit yetsurely to pick this car the style should be similar to where it has done well before......I don't follow your reasoning.

Look up the meaning of "Outside Bet" :)
 
i like outside bets they net me quite a bit of cash but sadly im going to lay it all on the line this race and put my money on vettle and hope for rain.
 
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