2009 Grand Prix de Monaco

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However, if I were sitting at a table where red had come up 50 times in a row, I'd be betting heavily on Red, because it would be more likely that you are sitting at a biased (or rigged) table, than that the string of 50 occurred naturally! ;)

If you sit there long enough, a string of 50 in a row will occur eventually - it's no less or more likely than any other combination of 50 results.

Button is really bugging me now. It seems like every time a British driver wins a race then the press go mental over them and dub them the new 'British hero'. It's always 'nationality first' here. Some of the papers are already comparing him to Schumacher, which I think is far too extreme. I really don't think he has the talent of Schumacher, he just happens to have a very good car and has kept himself out of trouble most of time. If he really was a good as Schumacher I'm sure he would have got a contract with a team like Ferrari several seasons ago, although he did moderately well with BAR.

Well, yes, it is nationality first here. British should support the British, and that's why in British newspapers, if a Briton wins they are likely to be happy as it's their hero, racing for their country.

I liked Button for the first two races, until people starting finding it strange when I said that Vettel was my favourite, as according to them; 'you must only support British drivers,'. And it annoyed me how loads of people I know immediately switched their allegiance from Hamilton to Button, it's so shallow and thickle.

Plus, I want Vettel to win the Championship, not Button.

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for your ignorance. Schumy can only be compared to 2 maybe 3 other drivers in GP racing history, and Button is most definitely not one of them. Not even close.

I should first of all stick some cards on the table - I've been a fan of Button since he first arrived. Though his first season wasn't stellar in a similarly less-than-awesome car, he did manage some good finishes (amongst some dodgy errors) - 6 points finishes compared to 8 from a far more experienced teammate.

The move to Benetton hurt him - the car which was a world beater a few seasons earlier was an absolute stinker. Again he was outscored by a more experienced teammate. In 2002 he came on leaps and bounds, taking a stinker of a car to 7th place in the WDC and outscoring his teammate and, in the awful 2003 BAR, he took just about 3 times as many points as his WDC champion teammate. The 2004 car was good enough to net Takuma Sato 34 points and Button still nearly outscored him 3 to 1 on his way to 3rd place - and he still netted 37 points next season from a stinker of a car (and 3 races the team was excluded from).

Then in 2006 was the win he'd been deserving of for some time - again outscoring a more experienced teammate and the combined total of the second McLaren still with only 7 non-points finishes - and he beat his teammate again in 2007. 2008 was, of course, a return to the bad old days but, as we all know, development on the car was abandoned very early on in the season and it was always going to run at the back and just pick up points through luck and crashes.


Personally, I consider Button's driving style to be the best in F1 and always have - he takes one bite at a corner, and releases the lock once for the straight. He's been stuck, by some really dodgy career choices (and the lawsuit), at the ass end of the grid, reliant on a bit of fortune to grub points, for quite some time and only now is getting to show just how good he is. Is the Brawn the best car? Yep - the two drivers are 1-2 in the WDC and the team is #1 in the WCC. But you still have to be a good driver to win in a good car - no-one wins a race by accident and, like it or not, Button has won in an average car and performed above the expected level in a woeful car. Button is doing everything Schumacher used to do when he had the best car - and I don't doubt for a second that Button and Barrichello's input through 2008 for the 2009 car has contributed to the speed of the Brawn car (not least for two drivers with different styles - Barrichello is more a nose-heavy driver).

And yes, it probably helps that he's a Brit - but I do like seeing Vettel doing well because I quite enjoy watching him too. :D
 
I should first of all stick some cards on the table - I've been a fan of Button since he first arrived. Though his first season wasn't stellar in a similarly less-than-awesome car, he did manage some good finishes (amongst some dodgy errors) - 6 points finishes compared to 8 from a far more experienced teammate.

The move to Benetton hurt him - the car which was a world beater a few seasons earlier was an absolute stinker. Again he was outscored by a more experienced teammate. In 2002 he came on leaps and bounds, taking a stinker of a car to 7th place in the WDC and outscoring his teammate and, in the awful 2003 BAR, he took just about 3 times as many points as his WDC champion teammate. The 2004 car was good enough to net Takuma Sato 34 points and Button still nearly outscored him 3 to 1 on his way to 3rd place - and he still netted 37 points next season from a stinker of a car (and 3 races the team was excluded from).

Then in 2006 was the win he'd been deserving of for some time - again outscoring a more experienced teammate and the combined total of the second McLaren still with only 7 non-points finishes - and he beat his teammate again in 2007. 2008 was, of course, a return to the bad old days but, as we all know, development on the car was abandoned very early on in the season and it was always going to run at the back and just pick up points through luck and crashes.


Personally, I consider Button's driving style to be the best in F1 and always have - he takes one bite at a corner, and releases the lock once for the straight. He's been stuck, by some really dodgy career choices (and the lawsuit), at the ass end of the grid, reliant on a bit of fortune to grub points, for quite some time and only now is getting to show just how good he is. Is the Brawn the best car? Yep - the two drivers are 1-2 in the WDC and the team is #1 in the WCC. But you still have to be a good driver to win in a good car - no-one wins a race by accident and, like it or not, Button has won in an average car and performed above the expected level in a woeful car. Button is doing everything Schumacher used to do when he had the best car - and I don't doubt for a second that Button and Barrichello's input through 2008 for the 2009 car has contributed to the speed of the Brawn car (not least for two drivers with different styles - Barrichello is more a nose-heavy driver).

And yes, it probably helps that he's a Brit - but I do like seeing Vettel doing well because I quite enjoy watching him too. :D
Why is it that everyone else is so much more articualte than I am? This is what I've been saying about Button for ages, but I've never been able to put it so succinctly.
 
Yes, but Shumacher came second stuck in a gear. I just think that was luck, not skill.

And take a look at this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8068069.stm

Those saying Button has no skill- think again and don't go crazy calling me ignorant for saying that he's a good driver!:sly:

I wouldn't call getting stuck in a gear luck.

It's difficult to compare Button to Schumacher after just 6 race victories compared to 91. And beating Rubens in the same car doesn't make him Schumacher, it just means that he's better adapted to the car than Rubens is, and that he's kept himself out of trouble. Barrichello has been making errors and Vettel has been having reliability issues. He's not Schumacher yet, he's just very fortunate.
 
Didn't Damon Hill win that race?

Yeah, but Schumacher finished the race stuck in 4th gear, having to nurse the car around even through pit stops stuck in it. He used his skill from endurance driving to do this and it is hugely impressive, in my opinion this was the greatest display of his skill despite him not winning. (in the same way that Hungary 1997 was a great display of Hill's skills despite not winning).

Yes, but Shumacher came second stuck in a gear. I just think that was luck, not skill.

And take a look at this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8068069.stm

Those saying Button has no skill- think again and don't go crazy calling me ignorant for saying that he's a good driver!:sly:

Luck? LUCK!!!!!?!!!?

Deary deary me.

No one was disputing that Button has skill, we are, however, disputing that Schumacher has no skill.
I'm so tempted to explode with this post but I'm too happy at the moment to do that. But deary me.
 
Button is really bugging me now. It seems like every time a British driver wins a race then the press go mental over them and dub them the new 'British hero'. It's always 'nationality first' here. Some of the papers are already comparing him to Schumacher, which I think is far too extreme. I really don't think he has the talent of Schumacher, he just happens to have a very good car and has kept himself out of trouble most of time. If he really was a good as Schumacher I'm sure he would have got a contract with a team like Ferrari several seasons ago, although he did moderately well with BAR.

I liked Button for the first two races, until people starting finding it strange when I said that Vettel was my favourite, as according to them; 'you must only support British drivers,'. And it annoyed me how loads of people I know immediately switched their allegiance from Hamilton to Button, it's so shallow and thickle.

Plus, I want Vettel to win the Championship, not Button.

I totally agree with you, there is far too much 'glory support' here by people who don't really care less about the sport and only started watching when Hamilton came and he was hyped to the hilt. It seems its all about 'king and country' with some people, that you have to support a UK participant.

Personally I feel that a guy who wears a Senna helmet is being seriously arrogant anyway, bet he feels kinda stupid now, I never liked him. The press can't get enough of slating him and his support has all jumped ship to Button and as you said its really shallow.

Some people are truely horrified when you say you support anyone other than Button or Hamilton. Yeah they have talent and they have dominated but the whole point of the sport is long term support. You don't dub people the next Shumacher after like 5 races!

I was catching the end of a race in the supermarket a while back (as you do!) and there was a crowd gathered round to see the last few laps of the race... the minute the positions came on screen and Hamilton wasnt in the top 3 people walked away mumbling stuff like 'who cares then'. That really said it all!

Now its the same with Button, the minute he stops winning races people wont care a toss anymore and thats tragic. And whats worse is that the press here have a tendancy to kick you the minute you fall from grace.

Robin.
 
Its bad, yada yada, but thats life. Thats the usual dumb public and the usual 5-second press. Its nothing new and it will never change. Doesn't make Button's winning any less great or make him particularly over-rated or under-rated in my opinion. These people are not in the position to rate how good drivers are doing when they only care for the wins and the results.
I'm enjoying the moment while it lasts at least though, its nice to hear people praising Button so much after the past few seasons even if its mostly false praise.

Also, the "rediculous Schumacher comparisons" actually come from Ross Brawn himself...not some dumb tabloid paper....
 
I do agree its nice that Button is having some limelight after being 'forgotten' for so long but as you said much of it is just false support. He drives very well but I feel the car is the biggest reason for his success.

Oh well enjoy the gravy train while you can! ;)

Robin
 
It's exactly the the same the world over, no matter what the sport. The general public, who only have a mild interest in a particular sport, will always follow the highest placed 'sports person' from their particular country. F1 was a nothing sport to most Spaniards before Alonso came on the scene (it was the same in Germany before Schumacher), now he has a massive following of 'F1' fans - except most of them probably know very little about the sport, they just want to see 'their' national hero doing well on the world scene.
 
I'm gonna feel so sorry for whoever beats Button or Hamilton to victory at the British GP (if any)! They'll be hated for ages by us, just like Vettel was after Brazil.
 
Yeah, but Schumacher finished the race stuck in 4th gear, having to nurse the car around even through pit stops stuck in it. He used his skill from endurance driving to do this and it is hugely impressive, in my opinion this was the greatest display of his skill despite him not winning. (in the same way that Hungary 1997 was a great display of Hill's skills despite not winning).

5th gear. ;)

Even harder.
 
I'm gonna feel so sorry for whoever beats Button or Hamilton to victory at the British GP (if any)! They'll be hated for ages by us, just like Vettel was after Brazil.

Vettel hated? I never caught a sniff of that overhere, is that your silly friends again? :p
At least we (well, not me, but I do like him for other reasons) love Glock :sly:
 
Vettel hated? I never caught a sniff of that overhere, is that your silly friends again? :p
At least we (well, not me, but I do like him for other reasons) love Glock :sly:

Yes it is. And what 'other' reasons? :odd:
 
Personally I feel that a guy who wears a Senna helmet is being seriously arrogant anyway, bet he feels kinda stupid now, I never liked him.

I'm sure he does feel really stupid taking a car which is essentially made of cheese and being in the top 10 in the drivers championship ;)

Not all his fans have jumped ship - I personally still don't like Button.
 
Yes it is. And what 'other' reasons? :odd:

He's a decent driver, he impressed me at the end of last season, he had a very amatuerish first half but the latter end he was good, matching Trulli and usually beating him.
This year is no different actually, no one seems to have noticed he came 10th in Monaco despite starting from the pitlane and the Toyota being a complete mess. In fact, this is the 3rd time I recall him charging from the back to a decent position come end of the race this year.
He finished 4th (was 5th) in Australia starting from the pitlane and he finished 7th in China after starting 19th (thanks to a gearbox change dropping him 5 places).

Clearly, someone at Toyota is getting their strategy calls right on and Glock seems to be really good at putting in the laps needed to jump people in the pits. Which is strange considering the rather silly strategy calls at Bahrain, but I suppose we'll have to put that down to them having little experience of true front-running.
 
He drives very well but I feel the car is the biggest reason for his success.

Take that out of context and apply it to any F1 champion ever and it fits. I've said it before, but only twice in 52 seasons of F1 has a driver won the championship in a car that wasn't in the top 2 of the Constructors championship - the exceptions being '82 (Rosberg in the 4th placed Williams, when there was 11 winners in 16 races) and '83 (Piquet in the 3rd placed Brabham). From '50-'57 obviously there was no championship for constructors. The car has always made the man. Sure, sometimes a driver can place a car higher than it deserves to be - sometimes, in the right circumstances, they can even win a race, such as Vettel showed last year - but those are almost always one-offs, and they can never maintain the results season long.
 
Back to this Monaco GP, I found Kimi's review (found it in F1 technical) very interesting. Good overall attitude! 👍

Kimi Raikkonen
"I wasn't too happy with the third place at the Monaco GP. For sure it was the best result in the last time, but that was nothing new to me and we knew that we could arrive on a place on the top. When the leaders in the Championship are so far ahead in the classification, in the end it's only a victory that counts. Being back on the podium is a nice reward for the whole Team. The hard work of the last weeks finally bears some fruit, which is really positive for all of us. We know that we're on the right way now: there are still some minor things to be done but sooner or later we will win. We'll show up with further improvements of the F60 in the upcoming races and we hope we can then challenge the leaders even more, in the qualifying and in the race.

"The Monaco qualifying is so much more important than on other tracks and we've almost done a perfect job: we missed the pole by 25 thousandsth of a second. Not starting from the first position means that it's very likely you won't win. Furthermore the second position on the grid doesn't help on this track. You start from the dirty side of the track and whenever I found myself in this position I always lost at least one position in the field, because the tyres spin a lot at the start. In fact Rubens overtook me, which was really a shame. If I had manaaged to stay beind Button I think I could have easily opened a gap.

"In the end it was difficult to fight for second position and then there was this story at the last pit stop, where we lost a couple of seconds, due to a problem with the right rear wheel. When I took up the race again I was further behind the Brazilian than before.

"We brought home both cars and gained some important points. There were many things at Monaco we can be satisfied with.

"I'll race in a rally in Italy next Saturday, in the Marca Trevigiana, and I want to thank the Scuderia that they gave me the possibility to take part in such a competition. I really enjoy myself and it will be my first experience on the tarmac after some tests on snow last winter. As I'm coeing from the race track it will be intersting to see what I will be able to do behind the wheel of the Fiat Grande Punto S2000 on the roads close to Treviso."
 
Not all his fans have jumped ship - I personally still don't like Button.
Ha! Most of Hamilton's British fans were Buttoneers to begin with. Then Lewis showed up and everyone jumped ship at the first sign of trouble. I find it rather ironic that now Lewis is floundering at best and Button is having a rather easier time of it, they're all crawling back to him.

At least some of us stuck with supporting Button, even when he went through two exceptionally difficult seasons at Honda.
 
I'm not bashing Button. I think he is a very deserving WDC, but comparing him to Schumacher is just laughable. As it would be just as laughable to compare any of the drivers on the grid to Schumacher, including Kimi and Felipe. In terms of natural skill and ability Schumacher is one of, if not the best ever. If Button had been penalized for some reason at Monaco, and been sent to the back of the grid do you honestly believe he could've climbed his way up to 5th place like Schumacher did in 2006. Or how about Schumacher's last race. Do you honestly think Button is capable of a performance like that? I could go on on, but the point is all Button is, is a great driver with the best car on the grid, of course he should be winning. And being able to put in quick laps when you have to is nothing special. Felipe, Kimi, Lewis, and Alonso have all done it. Are we to say they are equal with Schumacher?

Also that win in 2006 by Button was a result of both Alonso and Schumacher failing to finish the race. He's never won flat out on pure pace alone with a sub-par car. Or even won in a dominant fashion in the rain. Schumacher has done both, on many occasions.
 
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The only comparison I've heard between Button and Schumacher is the one about how only two drivers - Schumacher being one, Nigel Mansell the other - have had a better start to a season than he has. In 1992, Mansell took fifty-six points from a possible sixty in the first five races (five wins, one second), while Schumacher did the same thing two years later; this year, Button has taken fifty-one from fifty-five (five wins, one third). He needs to win in Turkey and Britain to beat Schumacher's record as the German won the seventh round of the 1994 season before being disqualified from the British Grand Prix.
 
I'm not bashing Button. I think he is a very deserving WDC, but comparing him to Schumacher is just laughable.

Tell that to Ross Brawn - who was doing the comparison.

In terms of natural skill and ability Schumacher is one of, if not the best ever.

Famine
Personally, I consider Button's driving style to be the best in F1 and always have

Crikey. If only there was room in the universe for two differing opinions.

If Button had been penalized for some reason at Monaco, and been sent to the back of the grid do you honestly believe he could've climbed his way up to 5th place like Schumacher did in 2006.

At this year's race? Yes, I do.

Button is, is a great driver with the best car on the grid, of course he should be winning. And being able to put in quick laps when you have to is nothing special. Felipe, Kimi, Lewis, and Alonso have all done it. Are we to say they are equal with Schumacher?

Now who said anything about "equal"? Is this why you're getting all bent out of shape?

Also that win in 2006 by Button was a result of both Alonso and Schumacher failing to finish the race.

Wait... two renowned expert wet drivers failed to finish a wet race (Schumacher's car failed 3 laps from the end, but he was classified 8th and got a point), and Button in the 4th best car (of 10) that year managed to beat both finishing drivers in the 3nd best car, the finishing driver in the 2nd best car and his own teammate to win and that was in some way unremarkable?

Lest we forget, Schumacher never challenged Button's lead in that race even before he "failed to finish the race".
 
The only comparison I've heard between Button and Schumacher is the one about how only two drivers - Schumacher being one, Nigel Mansell the other - have had a better start to a season than he has. In 1992, Mansell took fifty-six points from a possible sixty in the first five races (five wins, one second), while Schumacher did the same thing two years later; this year, Button has taken fifty-one from fifty-five (five wins, one third). He needs to win in Turkey and Britain to beat Schumacher's record as the German won the seventh round of the 1994 season before being disqualified from the British Grand Prix.

Button will find it harder to seal the championship, since the gap in the record-breaking 2002 year to 2nd-placed Barrichello was 42 points, and is only 16 points this year.

And yet, as a way to gauge the Brawn dominance: Schumacher, in both of his perfect dominance seasons, 2004 and 2002, had Barrichello at his side. This allows us to fetch some slightly accurate statistics:

Rubens in the first 6 races of 2004: 2nd at Australia, 4th at Malaysia, 2nd at Bahrain, 6th at San Marino, 2nd at Spain, 3rd at Monaco. Schumacher won every single one of those races, except a retirement at Monaco. Total points comparison: 35 for Rubens, 50 to Schumacher.
Rubens in the first 6 races of 2002: 3 retirements in a row, a 2nd at San Marino, another retirement at Spain, and 2nd at Austria. Schumacher won all of those races, except for a 3rd-placed finish at Malaysia. Total points comparison: 12 to Rubens, 54 for Schumacher.
Rubens in the first 6 races of 2004: 2nd at Australia, Spain and Monaco, 4th in China, 5th at Bahrain and Malaysia. Button, just like Schumacher in 2002, won every one of those, and finished 3rd at the 3rd round. Total points comparison: Button has 51 points (56 if Malaysia wasn't rain-shortened), Rubens 35 (37).

So while Button scored essentially the same as Schumacher in 2002 (ignoring different scoring-systems and rain-shortened Malaysia), Rubens went from four DNFs and two podiums in 2002 to three podiums and points in all races of 2009.
Reliability-wise, the 2002 car of Rubens retired 4 times in the first 6 rounds, 3 of which mechanical: One, even, was a gearbox failure before the start itself. One of these retirements came on the season-old F2001.

In short, the 2009 BrawnGP package equals the Ferrari's F2004 in terms of dominance over the field, and is more reliable (so far) than their dream 2002 campaign. There's absolutely no reason to be surprised, and Button's nearly-perfect start has been matched by a greatly-improved drive from Barrichello: Perhaps it's time to admit that the BGP001, currently, is on the same level of dominance as the aforementioned Ferraris? Under the current regulations, with the smaller freedom in design, the overall gap between backmarkers such as Force India and the frontrunners is smaller than ever before - and yet, there's still an advantage to the Brawns, both in qualifying and, most importantly, their dominant, superior race-pace.
 
Yes indeed, the BGP001 is almost the perfect F1 car, I think it really reminds me of the Williams FW14B rather than any of the Ferrari's because of its reliability.

But it still takes a decent driver to win with it, bad drivers in good cars are noticable, and Jenson has made very few mistakes so far which is the real demonstration of his skills.

I think Brawn have quite simply the best everything, :lol:
Perhaps not the best drivers on the grid though, but they are certainly getting the job done. 👍

I would have thought we would have seen more problems with the team itself with their lack of pit stop practice, etc and reliability problems with their lack of spare parts. But they are doing everything perfect. The only area I'm not surprised in is their strategy calls.
 
Jenson has always been very smooth. I was brought up, where nearly every weekend I'd be taken to watch karting. A kart is the best place to see someones driving style, as you can see their entire posture and steering movements are of course, very visible.

A drivers style, is just one of many variables that all need to work in harmony to be successful. Sometimes that particular style, didn't suit a compound of tyre, or a circuit under damp conditions etc...where other, more aggressive styles could. There is not a single driving style, that will give you an advantage. A smooth Button, or a leary Hamilton - the important bit in my opinion, is the ability to adapt driving styles.

On a different topic however, it always tickles me when people claim that Lewis has "amazing car control" and "the best car control out of anyone on the F1 grid today"...when, to me he has always over-driven. Because of his loose rear end style, people assume that by watching him catch over-steer that means he has excellent "car control". Am I the only one who would consider someone like Button, who you rarely see making errors in the first place to HAVE to catch oversteer, to have much better car control...simply, because he IS in control? Lewis' error in qualy, was because he was over-driving IMO. A driver with excellent car control in my eyes, wouldn't of braked late in the first place.

As for comparing drivers to other drivers, even if they're in the same team it's ultimately impossible to decipher entirely, who is the greater driver. Driver preferences in the team, can have a massive effect on the development of a car...even from scratch!

It's good fun for everyone to have their opinions, but sometimes when there are so many variables, a simple answer just can't be given.
 
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On a different topic however, it always tickles me when people claim that Lewis has "amazing car control" and "the best car control out of anyone on the F1 grid today"...when, to me he has always over-driven. Because of his loose rear end style, people assume that by watching him catch over-steer that means he has excellent "car control". Am I the only one who would consider someone like Button, who you rarely see making errors in the first place to HAVE to catch oversteer, to have much better car control...simply, because he IS in control? Lewis' error in qualy, was because he was over-driving IMO. A driver with excellent car control in my eyes, wouldn't of braked late in the first place.

But, in Button's case, he clearly has an easier car to drive. For a fair assesement, you have to compare their performances in different cars and Jenson's style really doesn't suit any car that is twitchy in the rear end, whereas someone like Alonso's (to avoid the Hamilton-bias comparisons) can easily adapt to different cars.

But it doesn't matter in the end, because most of the drivers in F1 are not "bad" at all and nearly all of them can win given the chance. There are just some who stand out and I think this year Jenson is standing out for how few mistakes he has made so far.
 
I could go on on, but the point is all Button is, is a great driver with the best car on the grid, of course he should be winning.

That's a very good point. Now, let's see what Schumacher drove and how he did with them.

1992 - Benetton inferior to Williams, Mansell took the trophy.
1993 - Benetton inferior to Williams, Prost took the trophy.
1994 - Benetton the fastest car out there, Schumacher took the trophy.
1995 - As in 1994.
1996 - Ferrari inferior to Williams, Hill took the trophy.
1997 - Ferrari approximately on a par with Williams, Villeneuve took the trophy.
1998 - Ferrari approximately on a par with McLaren, Häkkinen took the trophy.
1999 - As in 1998.
2000 - Ferrari superior to McLaren, Schumacher took the trophy.
2001 - Ferrari superior to anything by quite a margin, Schumacher took the trophy.
2002 - As in 2001.
2003 - Ferrari superior to McLaren, Schumacher took the trophy.
2004 - As in 2001 and 2002.
2005 - Ferrari inferior to Renault, Alonso took the trophy.
2006 - Ferrari slightly inferior to Renault, Alonso took the trophy.

The quick survey shows that every single year when Schumacher was crowned the champion he had the best car out there. Surprise surprise. Was he all that good after all? Undoubtedly one of the best ever, that can't be denied, but not the end-of-all driver when it comes to pure skill. There have been better ones, there are better ones and there will be better ones.
 
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