2010 F1 German Grand Prix

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Matti_Dude
One driver per team is NEVER going to happen. It's quite straightforward really because if one driver per team was the case, nobody would be able to gauge a driver's ability. It could be the car making them look good, or the driver making the car look good. Driver's always need something to be compared to, and the best way of comparing them is to their team-mate.
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Which is why i sated that it would take away from the spectacle. I meant it towards the issue that team orders are not going to disappear unless we get one driver teams or no drivers championship.
 
Stotty
Massa says he's not #2 at Ferrari...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8868309.stm

I think Filipe may be the only person in the World who doesn't realise he's already been made Alonso's bitch.
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It could possibly be that they (Alonso and Massa) have agreed to race each other by lap times instead of head to head to avoid taking each other out. As to the radio transmission when they (Ferarri) told Massa to get on with it and go as fast as he can to se what his lap times were going to be at the same time Alonso slowing down behind Massa to give some space and shows his fastest race lap times. This is when they concluded that Alonso was faster and wanted Massa to confirm. As to Massa responding with letting Alonso by. Maybe it goes both ways for both Drivers that if Massa was faster then Massa could race on or if Alonso was ahead and slowing Massa down that Alonso would let Massa through. I would feel the same for Massa if Ferrari would make me sign a contract saying that I would be a number two driver I would probably want to sign with another team.
 
I doubt Massa agreed to anything with Alonso. It's pretty clear he hates Alonso. He was pretty public with his comments about Singapore.
 
Hopefully the punishment will be enough to make sure it doesn't happen again. A one race ban might be a good solution. Or take all constructor points away. A complete ban sounds too much I believe.
 
I still find it odd that Ferrari chose to give the order in such an obvious way. Did they really think they would get away with that?

The anti-orders rules are in place for the enjoyment of the spectators, but the teams are free to get around this if they're surreptitious about it. Why did they not simply turn Massa's car onto fuel saving mode, Alonso's onto quali mode and let them have at it? No way could Massa have fended Alonso off in that situation. There's then at least reasonable arguments to be made that the fuel needed to be saved at some point and doing it in that way ensured that there wouldn't be an altercation between the drivers.

I must say, I am enjoying that every race seems to be bringing new drama at the moment. Can't wait for this weekend.
 
I doubt Ferrari will be banned... possibly a bigger fine... a deduction of constructor's points from the race... that's it.

Stotty
Massa says he's not #2 at Ferrari...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8868309.stm

I think Filipe may be the only person in the World who doesn't realise he's already been made Alonso's bitch.
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That's obviously not Massa. It's a dummy:

_48480300_f1_massa_av.jpg


If you look real hard, you can see the arm up his behind working his mouth...
 
Radracing
It could possibly be that they (Alonso and Massa) have agreed to race each other by lap times instead of head to head to avoid taking each other out. As to the radio transmission when they (Ferarri) told Massa to get on with it and go as fast as he can to se what his lap times were going to be at the same time Alonso slowing down behind Massa to give some space and shows his fastest race lap times. This is when they concluded that Alonso was faster and wanted Massa to confirm. As to Massa responding with letting Alonso by. Maybe it goes both ways for both Drivers that if Massa was faster then Massa could race on or if Alonso was ahead and slowing Massa down that Alonso would let Massa through. I would feel the same for Massa if Ferrari would make me sign a contract saying that I would be a number two driver I would probably want to sign with another team.
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Which would be a fair enough interpretation if they hadn't been running 1-2 at the time with little chance of losing that position.


Imari
I still find it odd that Ferrari chose to give the order in such an obvious way. Did they really think they would get away with that?

The anti-orders rules are in place for the enjoyment of the spectators, but the teams are free to get around this if they're surreptitious about it. Why did they not simply turn Massa's car onto fuel saving mode, Alonso's onto quali mode and let them have at it? No way could Massa have fended Alonso off in that situation. There's then at least reasonable arguments to be made that the fuel needed to be saved at some point and doing it in that way ensured that there wouldn't be an altercation between the drivers.

I must say, I am enjoying that every race seems to be bringing new drama at the moment. Can't wait for this weekend.
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I think the way Rob Smedley and Massa communicated was deliberately worded to make it obvious!

niky
If you look real hard, you can see the arm up his behind working his mouth...
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:lol:
 
A Swedish daily is saying that Massa ignored the agreed codewords for letting Alonso pass twice and that that was the reason for the "confirm that you understand that message" sentence
 
Anghammarad
A Swedish daily is saying that Massa ignored the agreed codewords for letting Alonso pass twice and that that was the reason for the "confirm that you understand that message" sentence
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Yes, I've read that in a local news website too.
 
But the radio quote was, "Alonso is faster than you, confirm you understand that message". Which clearly refers to confirming "Alonso is faster" and understanding it means "let Alonso past".
It makes sense and without the full radio transcripts, its speculation whether Massa was asked repeatedly or not. I think its pure speculation to be honest because it sounds too much like Rubens......
 
It would be interesting to see full radio transcripts. But I suppose it'll all come out in September... which is too damn far away.
 
niky
It would be interesting to see full radio transcripts. But I suppose it'll all come out in September... which is too damn far away.
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What happens in September? :confused:
 
Antti-san
What happens in September? :confused:
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The next WMSC meeting. They haven't decided whether to convene an emergency meeting to discuss the case, so it's possible they'll discuss it in the regular meeting in September.
 
I seem to recall reading that the WMSC would discuss Ferrari at a special sitting this August. The only reason why they haven't taken action ahead of Hungary this weekend is because it's only been a week since Germany.
 
It would be wise for any such hearing to review the Ferrari or, any other teams actions, to be held later rather than sooner. My reasoning being that it would allow closer scrutiny of forth coming results which, let's face it, are going to be more telling.

If Massa moves over for Alonso again then Ferrari are surely going to get turned-over and then inside-out by the powers that be because, they will be in breach of a rule. To argue the rule has no place is plainly dissent-full and another sorry chapter in the story of Ferrari's power struggle with the FIA.
 
Fastas
It would be wise for any such hearing to review the Ferrari or, any other teams actions, to be held later rather than sooner. My reasoning being that it would allow closer scrutiny of forth coming results which, let's face it, are going to be more telling.
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They are just deciding on what happened at the German GP not the whole season.
 
Mark Webber fastest in P3, and the only person to dip in the 1'19's.
 
Fastas
It would be wise for any such hearing to review the Ferrari or, any other teams actions, to be held later rather than sooner. My reasoning being that it would allow closer scrutiny of forth coming results which, let's face it, are going to be more telling..
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What do forth coming results have to do with the incident in Germany?

Fastas
If Massa moves over for Alonso again then Ferrari are surely going to get turned-over and then inside-out by the powers that be because, they will be in breach of a rule. To argue the rule has no place is plainly dissent-full and another sorry chapter in the story of Ferrari's power struggle with the FIA.
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And what a coincidence that Jean Todt (who is now the President of the FIA) was the one guilty of blatant team orders in 2002 with Ferrari, which shortly after caused the FIA to put the team order ruling into affect :lol: Team orders were introduced after the race in Austria (2002) as a typical knee jerk reaction to what happened, with no realization and acceptance that it is just one of the necessary evils (if you want to call it that) when having a two car team in what is labeled a team sport/business. Not to mention it is IMPOSSIBLE aspect of the sport/business to police...so why have such a lame rule that can't even be enforced to begin with? :lol:
 
timeattack07gt
What do forth coming results have to do with the incident in Germany?



And what a coincidence that Jean Todt (who is now the President of the FIA) was the one guilty of blatant team orders in 2002 with Ferrari, which shortly after caused the FIA to put the team order ruling into affect :lol: Team orders were introduced after the race in Austria (2002) as a typical knee jerk reaction to what happened, with no realization and acceptance that it is just one of the necessary evils (if you want to call it that) when having a two car team in what is labeled a team sport/business. Not to mention it is IMPOSSIBLE aspect of the sport/business to police...so why have such a lame rule that can't even be enforced to begin with? :lol:
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Almost impossible. And whether the rule is stupid or not, the teams agreed to follow F1 rules, and breaking them means punishment, so Ferrari are still liable for what happened.

Technically, I agree it's a stupid rule. But having it at least lets us keep the semblance of fair play in the sport, whether it really is there or not. Rules against game-fixing won't stop it in professional sports, but at least they keep most of the players clean and keep the fans happy. Harsh punishment of those found to break those rules will let fans know that the sport is "legit".
 
niky
Almost impossible. And whether the rule is stupid or not, the teams agreed to follow F1 rules, and breaking them means punishment, so Ferrari are still liable for what happened.
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True. I just think people are making too much of a fuss over what took place...but then again it's no surprise to me considering the amount of drama queens and soap opera lovers who follow Formula 1, and also how the media make a business out of blowing every little thing they can out of proportion :rolleyes: :lol:

True, well educated fans of the sport/business realize team orders are a necessary evil in a TEAM sport like this, where the team must maximize their results and probability for either Championship in each and every race. You can't expect a team like Ferrari (given their current points situation) to let their clear day in/day out faster driver (Alonso) this season to lose 5 points when they have an opportunity like they did at Hockenheim. Yea maybe Ferrari could have let both drivers scrap it out on the track, but as Alonso said, look where that has gotten Redbull in the past :lol: Not to mention how costly a DNF for Ferrari (particularly Alonso) would be at this stage in the Championship, had the two tangled.

When you get down to it, the goal of a Formula 1 team is to take take home the WDC and WCC at nearly whatever cost. To think a team like Ferrari is going to allow their lead driver THIS season (which he has earned in the first half of the season) lose 5 points which could potentially cost Alonso/Ferrari a WDC is absolute blasphemy considering what is at stake for the team. Knowing Ferrari, I doubt they mind a bit of tarnish on their record if it means winning the WDC by 1 point at the end of this year.

niky
Technically, I agree it's a stupid rule. But having it at least lets us keep the semblance of fair play in the sport, whether it really is there or not. Rules against game-fixing won't stop it in professional sports, but at least they keep most of the players clean and keep the fans happy. Harsh punishment of those found to break those rules will let fans know that the sport is "legit".
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Ii think we share the same opinion regarding the stupidity of the rule. If fans and the organizers of the sport find team orders to be such a crime, then IMO they need to do something else that is actually going to 100% prevent such "team orders" ....not some typical FIA knee-jerk reaction which does absolutely nothing to minimize team orders and only forces TEAMS to "cheat' (:lol:) under the radar...which is even worse IMO. To have some smoke and mirrors regulation in place in a pathetic attempt (if you can even call it that) to prevent team orders is an utter joke, especially when it's likely that almost every fan who follows/regularly watches F1 knows that team orders still exist regardless of the rules in place.
 
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I hope they get disqualified from Hockenheim, Vettel would gain 10 points! Or maybe a three race ban, but that'll just help McLaren as their won't be anyone keeping them from the Red Bull's.
 
They will just get a further fine at most. I doubt they will alter the race result now. Maybe take the points off but I really don't see it happening.
Honestly, I still think the same as before - banning or excluding is not justified, they are not the first team and certainly won't be the last team to break the rule since 2002. But they do deserve a telling off for being dumb enough to:
1. Force Massa's engineer to deliver the message - everyone knows they have a close relationship and there was going to be a conflict of interest. It was always going to be obvious.
2. Lie about what happened afterwards which is just trying to play us off as idiots.
Ferrari - don't play us for idiots and don't make it so fricking obvious! Next time, make Stefano tell Massa or someone who doesn't have a conflict of interest or otherwise have a random pit stop delay or whatever. Also perhaps make it clear to Massa before the race what may happen. Surely a driver agreement could have been written before the season to let each other past once they were clearly out of contention.
 
Ardius
2. Lie about what happened afterwards which is just trying to play us off as idiots.
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I didn't see it like it like that. They were screwed either way. The reason they lied is because the rule is there. If it wasn't they could just say we decided to let Alonso past Massa to have a better chance at the driver's championship without risking not finishing.
 
Ardius
Also perhaps make it clear to Massa before the race what may happen.
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They would have told him it was going to happen before the race or I doubt he would have understood the message he was given.

The no team orders rule is stupid anyway and needs to be scrapped.
 
IMO its there to promote racing and what ferrari did was avoid exciting racing which we want to see.
 
You want your position, you fight for it. Don't go crying to mama your brother doesn't want to let you win. Be a real driver and pass him FFS.

Besides, look at Vettel vs Webber or Hamilton vs Button. Some very good fights.
 
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