2010 F1 German Grand Prix

[Earth]

Masa

 

[Only_in_f1]

OK so now we're all clam.

Picture the situation;


Its the 14th of November and after a fantastic race in Brazil we hit Abu Dhabi with 3 drivers in contention for the championship.

With Webber and Button hitting some mid/late season bad luck the are effectively out of the title race and their misfortune has been the result of Alonso picking up a series of Wins and Podiums to get him in with a shout of the championship.

Its between the 3 drivers of Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso.

A porblem in Qualifying leave Webber at the back and out of contention meaning he is unable to help his teammate win the title.

The race starts Massa streaks into a lead and is well in tune with the track. He is followed by Hamilton, Vettel, Button, Kubica and Alonso. As it stands Hamilton will be world champion but with Button struggling for grip he isn't able to put pressure on Vettel. Button back Kubica into Alonso and this alows him to gain a place before another mistake by Button allows Alonso to gain more. We're after the first and only round of pitstops and and as it stands Massa has a substantial lead from Hamilton and Vettel, who hold a very minor margin to Alonso.

Lap 22 and Vettel his engine trouble and his race is run, and Hamilton also seems to be struggling with the car and Alonso closes the gap to 3 seconds. lap 30 and Alonso is past and Hamilton has a puncture, After a pitstop Hamilton rejoins 6th and all Alonso needs to do is win the race to win the title. Within laps, and the odd radio message, the once 16 second game from 1st to 2nd become a mere 2 second game before lap 40, with 15 laps to go the lead changes. Alonso wins the title and Massa settles for 2nd place.

Is this any less cheating or diabolical as we saw today? Or do we 'understand' more why it happened and that leads us to think its more 'fair'? Are we all so fickle? Say the situation above did arise, or a similar one and Alonso was to win the championship by 1 or 7 points, does that make today right?

One thing is for sure, if the situation above did happen, we wouldn't have the media/fan outcry we did today.

But we'd accept the situation above as it was 'right for the team' so does that make today right as today was 'for the team'?

Thoughts please.

 

[Prince.M5]

Just fined 100k? That's it? At least ripped off their points from the race... They are, again ruining the image of F1 and that's the only penalty the had? Come on...

I arrived at school this morning and my friend, who is a Massa supporter didn't even smile for the rest of the school session. I am not blaming Alonso completely for this but Stefano Domenicali is clearly responsible for this. During the race, obviously Massa and Alonso were really fast. They were trading fastest lap and sometimes they were catching and running away from themselves so why can't they entertain us with that instead of just playing team orders that will result in your name being the destroyer of F1? I have to say, for a big team like that 100k is just nothing. They can put out those money anytime that they want.

"We are professional drivers and we try to work as a team'' is what Alonso said after the race... In my opinion, professional drivers work themselves on track not by team-orders or moaning over problems. In the end, he says it's all for the good of the team which I think doesn't make much of a difference if Massa win the race unless he wants to win the Championship in which I think is already too late if McLarens bounce back up ahead.

Obviously we cannot stop team-orders as it will happen anyway (maybe less obvious). Ferrari had a chance to bounce back yesterday but that incident made them shallow again IMO. Shame on you Ferrari...

 

[Alltidxx]

Maybe they should look into text messaging.

Lol. that would be great: *bep bep* "hold on I've got an sms" (and then starting to fumble after the phone in the inside breastpocket of the racingsuit meanwhile trying to run the car and the up and downshifts with one hand

 

[Scaff]

But we'd accept the situation above as it was 'right for the team' so does that make today right as today was 'for the team'?

Thoughts please.

No, you would accept the situation, but its quite clear that a large number of us here would not accept it at all.

I want drivers fighting down to the wire for a championship, and in the above situation if Alonso could not get past his team-mate through ability then he would not deserve the championship. You can replace Alonso's name with any other driver and my opine would remain the same.


Team orders murder competitive motorsport (recent silliness in the WRC has re-enforced this), and yes the teams will do all they can to get around them, but to allow it to happen blatantly ruin races and ultimately runs the chance of ruining championships.


Scaff

 

[prisonermonkeys]

My only problem in all of this is that the rules state the fine for team orders is capped at $100,000. Last time someone fixed a race outcome, he was banned for life. Granted, that was in completely different circumstances, but think about it - if Ferrari spend $40 million developing their car, they'll gladly pay $100,000 for a race victory. At the very least, they should be stripped of their points and banned from the next race. If it's enough for Renault to be banned for one race for an unsafe pit release or for BAR to be banned for three for using fuel as ballast, a one-race ban for team orders should be the minimum they receive. Because right now, some teams would be willing to overlook the current penalty if it meant a more-desirable result.

 

[Silver Fox]

There seems to be a glaring ommission here! Although team orders has been around for a very long time, it now appears that Ferrari can blantantly cheat and get away with it. For the most senior F1 team to act so poorly and to disgrace the sport of F1, they should be banned for a least 4-6 races and give them time to reflect on what racing is really about. We all know that there is cheating in sport and more particularly in F1, but this has gone too far too often. Let the fastest car/driver combination win...at any cost!

 

[Seismica]

Smedley is probably the most recognisable race engineer ever alongside Jock Clear. Being a Yorkshireman helps .

I cringe every time he is described as a Yorkshireman. He is from Middlesbrough, which up until a few years ago was part of Cleveland. Cleveland as a county was dissolved, and the whole Tees Valley area is on the border between North Yorkshire and Durham. Sure technically, the majority of Middlesbrough is on the south side of the river Tees, so it is technically part of North Yorkshire.

However, we still put Cleveland on our address, or just a town and a postcode. If you put North Yorkshire on a letter addressed to Middlesbrough (Or a lesser known town nearby) and forget to put a postcode on it, it will never reach it's destination, because such a place does not exist. Same as if you put 'Durham' on a letter addressed to Stockton, it will not get there either, despite the fact it is on the North part of the river and in the extended County Durham area.

/rant over

Oh, and according to Mike Gascoyne 100k is the biggest fine they can give.

I thought so. That means the Stewards have made exactly the right decision. The WMSC/FIA can still DQ Ferrari or strip them of points I think. They will almost certainly increase the fine, not to do so would be stupid, Ferrari stand to gain a lot more from their race result.

 

[ExigeEvan]

After watching some catch-up television last night I've decided that during an economic downturn financial punishment is not appropriate punishment for teams.

Instead people should be punished by appearing on Argentinian-based gameshows such as "101 ways to leave a gameshow" and "Total Wipeout".

I know the guy that lost...

 

[Stotty]

The FIA should stop interfering... F1 is as much a team sport as it is for the individual drivers. The teams should be able to do exactly as they please with their own cars and drivers if they are within the technical regs and aren't putting other drivers in physical danger.

I will still PMSL laughing if Alonso and Ferrari lose the points from Sunday

 

[Hun200kmh]

The FIA should stop interfering... F1 is as much a team sport as it is for the individual drivers. The teams should be able to do exactly as they please with their own cars and drivers if they are within the technical regs and aren't putting other drivers in physical danger.

You know, technically I agree with this. F1 is indeed a team sport, so I think the rule about team orders is stupid. That this is true is proven by the fact that all teams have them (team orders) in one way or another. You just can't avoid them.

However, I always hated seeing such orders being given in a way that made a F1 driver lose a GP win. And I always respected the drivers that didn't obey to such orders. Like Arnoux at the '82 French GP and, before that, Carlos Reutemann at the '81 Brazilian GP. I refer to these very old events because they still stay very clear to me as the first two times I witnessed team orders that could affect the race winner, and watched them being disregarded by the drivers that would become - and forever remain - those GP winners.

 

[Famine]

One driver per team. Job jobbed.

 

[ExigeEvan]

One driver per team. Job jobbed.

Or just get rid of radios and only use standardised pit-boards...

 

[Stotty]

Not sure radios make any difference... team orders have always been a part of motorsport, long before radios were around. It's always going to be part of the sport, whether it's obvious or not.

It really should ahve nothing to do with the FIA.

If the drivers don't like it they can always sign for another team. If the sponsors don't like it they can withdraw their funding. But at the end of the day, the teams proivide the cars and they pay the drivers salaries, the decision should be theirs.

I'm sure the millions of dollars Ferrari pay Massa every year will make him feel better about it.

 

[niky]

The FIA should stop interfering... F1 is as much a team sport as it is for the individual drivers. The teams should be able to do exactly as they please with their own cars and drivers if they are within the technical regs and aren't putting other drivers in physical danger.

I will still PMSL laughing if Alonso and Ferrari lose the points from Sunday

While I agree, technically... and we've seen some instances where Team Orders were attempted or successfully carried out (I seem to remember one occassion between Kimi and Felipe in the past... someone help?), this is the problem:

to allow it to happen blatantly ruin races and ultimately runs the chance of ruining championships.

Such clumsy position swaps ruin the spectacle. Which turns away fans. Which does not please sponsors. Which are, ultimately, what power the F1 machine.

Or just get rid of radios and only use standardised pit-boards...

FELIPE BABY

ALO ON UR 6

COPY?

 

[Alex.]

^

I'm sure we could think up plenty of those.

 

[Scaff]

It really should ahve nothing to do with the FIA.

?

Given that the FIA are the governing body of international motorsport, and (crucial for this discussion) the organizing body behind F1, I would say they have rather a lot to do with it.

The FIA Sporting regulations (which are just as important as the technical regulations) are something that the teams involved in F1 agree to follow.

Its a bit like saying that whether members follow the AUP here has nothing to do with the staff.

If the drivers don't like it they can always sign for another team. If the sponsors don't like it they can withdraw their funding.

And the day that happens F1 is dead.

Given that sponsors like what brings in the fans, I would hazard a guess that they are not going to go all out for race wins being 'picked' by the team.

But at the end of the day, the teams provide the cars and they pay the drivers salaries, the decision should be theirs.

They are only able to do both of those things with the money the sponsors bring in (and in a few cases the money the drivers own sponsors bring in).

That aside does not however mean that they get to pick and chose which rules to follow, nor does it follow that they should be able to change the rules based upon that.

To continue my GTP analogy, it would be like premium members not having to follow the AUP.

Teams that don't like the FIA's regulations (and don't forget they do help shape the rules and regs) are free to start a new series, just as members here who do not like the AUP are free to go off and set-up a GT site.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Stotty]

While I agree, technically... and we've seen some instances where Team Orders were attempted or successfully carried out (I seem to remember one occassion between Kimi and Felipe in the past... someone help?), this is the problem:

Scaff
to allow it to happen blatantly ruin races and ultimately runs the chance of ruining championships.

It's going to happen anyway, no matter what rules are in place. IMO, better for it to be legal and obvious than how it is currently... the press just jump on anything that they see as even slightly controversial and create a huge story out of it which in turn damages the sport.

Does anyone really think that if Team X driver A had to win the final race to win the drivers championship and Team X driver B was ahead of him (with no interest in the Championship himself) it would be wrong for team driver B to give up the position? And if it's OK in that siuation how can it be wrong in any other?

Anyone who thinks you can have the same level of open racing between team mates as you can between drivers in rival teams is just being naive. The teams have far too much money invested in the sport to risk their drivers taking one or both of their cars out in some ill judged over taking move.

EDIT....

?

Given that the FIA are the governing body of international motorsport, and (crucial for this discussion) the organizing body behind F1, I would say they have rather a lot to do with it.

The FIA Sporting regulations (which are just as important as the technical regulations) are something that the teams involved in F1 agree to follow.

Its a bit like saying that whether members follow the AUP here has nothing to do with the staff.

Err... I said it SHOULD have nothing to do with the FIA, not it DIDN'T have anything to do with them under the current regs.

Also, I didn't say teams should be able to pick and choose which rules to follow... I said I thought the rule forbidding team orders was a rule that shouldn't exist as IMO what the teams do in this regard should be nothing to do with the FIA.

And finally, do you really think the sponsors care which of a team's drivers wins as long as their logo's feature loud on the TV coverage?

 

[Scaff]

It's going to happen anyway, no matter what rules are in place. IMO, better for it to be legal and obvious than how it is currently... the press just jump on anything that they see as even slightly controversial and create a huge story out of it which in turn damages the sport.

So because we know teams will try and cheat/stretch the rules whenever they can then that regulation should be ignored?

That exact same logic could be applied to just about every part of the technical and sporting regulations, just because a team breaks the regulations is not reason alone to throw out the regulations.

Team orders, particularly when as blatant as this, do nothing but ruin races and that turns away spectators and that turns away sponsorship. Ultimately that could kill the sport.

Does anyone really think that if Team X driver A had to win the final race to win the drivers championship and Team X driver B was ahead of him (with no interest in the Championship himself) it would be wrong for team driver B to give up the position? And if it's OK in that situation how can it be wrong in any other?

I've already answered this in a reply to another member......

No, you would accept the situation, but its quite clear that a large number of us here would not accept it at all.

I want drivers fighting down to the wire for a championship, and in the above situation if Alonso could not get past his team-mate through ability then he would not deserve the championship. You can replace Alonso's name with any other driver and my opine would remain the same.

....so to be 100% clear on this, yes I do believe it would be wrong for a team to order a driver to pull over and let his team mate win, no matter at what point in the season or how it would affect the seasons results.

Anyone who thinks you can have the same level of open racing between team mates as you can between drivers in rival teams is just being naive. The teams have far too much money invested in the sport to risk their drivers taking one or both of their cars out in some ill judged over taking move.

That's strange because the history of F1 is littered with teams who let drivers race against each other and/or drivers who did it regardless of what the teams stated should happen.

That aside a huge difference exists between not taking each other out in a daft overtake and pulling over so your team mate can take a win.

Err... I said it SHOULD have nothing to do with the FIA, not it DIDN'T under the current regs.

I know exactly what you said and I my reply still stands 100%, it should have everything to do with the FIA.

They regulate the sport, with the input of the teams, but ultimately they are the final say in regard to the regulations.

And finally, do you really think the sponsors care which of a team's drivers wins as long as their logo's feature loud on the TV coverage?

If that team/drivers win is seen by the viewing public as being fixed and it drives those viewers away, then catagorically yes they will care.

And fans do seem to care...

Source - http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/


To quote Nick Fry....

Formula 1 teams should put the good of the sport above their own personal ambitions, and realise how damaging the use of 'team orders' can be to the image of grand prix racing.

That is the view of Mercedes GP CEO Nick Fry, who reckons that F1 faces such big challenges from other sporting and entertainment sectors that it cannot afford accusations that it is not a proper sport.

Source - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85574




Scaff

 

[Synwraith]

So because we know teams will try and cheat/stretch the rules whenever they can then that regulation should be ignored?

That exact same logic could be applied to just about every part of the technical and sporting regulations, just because a team breaks the regulations is not reason alone to throw out the regulations.
Scaff

Unfortunately I think that's exactly what happened with traction control wasn't it? They couldn't enforce or police the use of it where some teams were incorporating it and some weren't, so they just allowed it. Of course, as we all know it's been banned again.

I'm sure the wording of the regulation change was more complicated than that, but that was how the changes in regulation on TC felt.

All the best
Maz

 

[Stotty]

Entire Post...

You're being either naive or far too idealistic if you think anyone involved in F1 really cares about the fans.

F1 isn't run for the fans, it's run for the money.

F1 has been pants for years from a spectator perspective... processional 'racing', no overtaking, cars nailed to the track with too much grip, tracks allowed to stay on the calendar even when they are rubbish venues just because they pay huge amounts of cash etc etc etc... all the FIA/Bernie/the Teams really care about is the money.

 

[niky]

It's going to happen anyway, no matter what rules are in place. IMO, better for it to be legal and obvious than how it is currently... the press just jump on anything that they see as even slightly controversial and create a huge story out of it which in turn damages the sport.

Does anyone really think that if Team X driver A had to win the final race to win the drivers championship and Team X driver B was ahead of him (with no interest in the Championship himself) it would be wrong for team driver B to give up the position? And if it's OK in that siuation how can it be wrong in any other?

On one level, yes. The teams should have the right. But on another level, it just makes for bad racing.

Anyone who thinks you can have the same level of open racing between team mates as you can between drivers in rival teams is just being naive. The teams have far too much money invested in the sport to risk their drivers taking one or both of their cars out in some ill judged over taking move.

They can order drivers not to take each other out... but any attempt to order one to give way on track (as RBR tried with Webber in Turkey) is illegal. There are many ways to do it so that it doesn't ruin the spectacle of the sport. And F1 is all about the spectacle.

F1 isn't run for the fans, it's run for the money.

And where does the money come from?

Sponsors.

And why do the sponsors pay ridiculous sums of money to the teams?

Advertising.

And who views the advertising, thus validating its worth in monetary terms?

Fans.

And who will stop watching a team, and thus stop looking at sponsor logos, thus invalidating the value of those ads, if they are disappointed with a team?

Exactly.

Sponsors have and do pull out of a team when things like this happen. Ferrari may have enough of a name that it won't happen to them, but other teams are not so lucky.

 

[Alex.]

This one happened BECAUSE of Sponsors. Fernando bought a giant to the team with Santander and I'm sure they'd be very unhappy if Felipe was allowed to win.

 

[Scaff]

You're being either naive or far too idealistic if you think anyone involved in F1 really cares about the fans.

F1 isn't run for the fans, it's run for the money.

F1 has been pants for years from a spectator perspective... processional 'racing', no overtaking, cars nailed to the track with too much grip, tracks allowed to stay on the calendar even when they are rubbish venues just because they pay huge amounts of cash etc etc etc... all the FIA/Bernie/the Teams really care about is the money.

And the money comes from where?


That's right the sponsors.


If they feel the actions of a team they are sponsoring is turning viewers away from the sport, or even worse providing a negative reaction to the brand then they will pull back from the sport.


You accuse me of being naive and quite frankly as a WRC fan I find that laughable. Take a look at what has happened over the last five years in the WRC, the way the sport was presented to the viewing public changed, viewer numbers dropped, sponsors pulled funding, teams went under and manufacturers pulled out. What we are now left with is basically a two horse race in the WRC, with the very sport itself fighting to regain lost ground.

Not a situation that I would want F1 to be in, but one that is quite possible if the sport were to lose viewers, because without they sponsorship doesn't exists.

My posts are not from naivety, rather from experience watching a sport self-destruct over a period of less than a decade.


Scaff

 

[Only_in_f1]

No, you would accept the situation, but its quite clear that a large number of us here would not accept it at all.

I want drivers fighting down to the wire for a championship, and in the above situation if Alonso could not get past his team-mate through ability then he would not deserve the championship. You can replace Alonso's name with any other driver and my opine would remain the same.


Team orders murder competitive motorsport (recent silliness in the WRC has re-enforced this), and yes the teams will do all they can to get around them, but to allow it to happen blatantly ruin races and ultimately runs the chance of ruining championships.


Scaff

But where was this outcry in Brazil 2008 when Kimi was leading and they swithced Massa and Kimi for Massa's chance to win the title?

Or 2007 when Massa was moved aside time and time again after Monza for Kimi to take the championship?

Where was the out cry then? From looking back at the thread it was very much 'Yeh they had to do it to win the title', so they'll accpet it if the same happens this year.


Edit: By the word YOU I guess your aiming it directly at me. I think you missed the point of my post I was saying I wouldn't accept it, but if it did happen there wouldn't be such a media out cry.

I'm as angry as you are about this. I'm no Ferrari fan, but yesterdays race was a sham, it wasnt a race at all.

 

[Radracing]

Lol. that would be great: *bep bep* "hold on I've got an sms" (and then starting to fumble after the phone in the inside breastpocket of the racingsuit meanwhile trying to run the car and the up and downshifts with one hand

NO just a QWERTY keypad on the wheel. haha!

No, you would accept the situation, but its quite clear that a large number of us here would not accept it at all.

I want drivers fighting down to the wire for a championship, and in the above situation if Alonso could not get past his team-mate through ability then he would not deserve the championship. You can replace Alonso's name with any other driver and my opine would remain the same.


Team orders murder competitive motorsport (recent silliness in the WRC has re-enforced this), and yes the teams will do all they can to get around them, but to allow it to happen blatantly ruin races and ultimately runs the chance of ruining championships.


Scaff

That's a big question mark there. Could he have passed Massa? He has done so in the past but considering he is in the fight for the points and Massa was not plus they are teamates which I'm sure was dicussed in prerace with the drivers who has priority. Why would Alonso risk getting knockouted of the race by a teamate when he could simply call it in the radio. I know they should be racing each other but when a lot is at stake you have to decide which is better. Come to think of it maybe Seb V. was ordered to block Alonso and let Massa ahead so that if RB could not win the race at least it will give less points to Alonso and maybe take each other out or slow Alonso down. 💡 Now theres a conspiracy theory to think about!

 

[Clark]

But where was this outcry in Brazil 2008 when Kimi was leading and they swithced Massa and Kimi for Massa's chance to win the title?

Kimi was never leading the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix, Massa dominated from start to finish.

 

[livemusic]

 

[Stotty]

F1? About the racing?

It might be about the performance of the cars, or the skill of a driver during the set up time or the qualifying periods, but it's not really about racing. The drivers aren't fighting it out on the track... the real fighting happens back in the design centres and the wind tunnels and on the race strategists laptop. How many times does one car overtake another of similar performance in F1 in the average race?

I understand what you're saying about the WRC, but F1 is not the same. F1 has always had strong viewing figures even when the racing was worse than it is now... and it's been pretty poor for at least the last 10 years. There's plenty of mugs who will watch the sport regardless of who wins and how they win and thus keep the sponsors money rolling in.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Kimi was never leading the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix, Massa dominated from start to finish.

my bad