2010 Formula 1 British Grand Prix

[Fastas]

I'm no Alonso or Ferrari fan, I think I've made that clear before...but, I strongly disagree with the divisive and negative attitude they have at the moment. As an example, when McLaren were fined $40m Euro's or what ever astronomical figure it was, they took it on the chin and carried on. What they didn't do was air a petty battle against 'formula 1'.

Ferrari haven't had things the way they like recently but, once a decision is made, no amount of feet stamping is going to change it. What ever their grievance with the FIA is, they should drop it and move on quickly because it is not going to help them or, and more importantly, the sport.

Everyone knows Alonso should have given the place back immediately. A two-time world champion and supposedly/potentially one of the best ambassadors of the current generation of drivers should know to give the place back. It doesn't matter what happened to Kubica after this event happened. What possible outcome were Ferrari chasing anyway and more importantly, what would have happened if Kubica hadn't retired?

The advantage Alonso gained was not just the place from Kubica but, it was the track position and the time advantage on the drivers ahead of him.

 

[Famine]

I didn't agree with Lewis's penalty - he gave the place back and fell foul of a rule written a week after the race - but I do agree with Alonso's. He gained advantage by driving outside the permitted track (the solid white lines) and didn't cede the advantage back.

And, for balance, Lewis's penalty at Valencia should have been a black flag.

 

[Scaff]

To not give a penalty? Who has he gained an advantage on without Kubica there? Arguably he gained something by being ahead of Robert with clean air but even so.
I agree that for the stewards it was a difficult situation. But I think the end result penalty was far harsher than it needed to be even without the safety car making it worse.

So you're saying that if you gain a track position illegally (which Alonso clearly did regardless of if he intended to or not) then its OK if the driver retires later in the race!

Quite amazing

That Kubica retired is 100% irrelevant to all of this. Alonso had three laps to give the place back, had he done so he would have had a great finishing position. He (and/or the team) thought it was better to not give back the place, that Kubica's car then failed is totally besides the point.


Scaff

 

[Ardius]

Eddie Jordan had it bang on the BBC F1 forum today when he said that Ferrari need to cool Alonso down and that Alonso is not doing his job of bringing Ferrari forward like this.
While we are all focusing on Alonso too, a word for Massa? He has had a rather silent season and pretty rubbish so far really. The car hasn't been there but Massa was 8 tenths off Alonso in qualifying for this race and he hasn't been much better earlier in the season. Ferrari have got to be thinking now whether it was a sound decision to keep Felipe on if his performances don't improve.

So you're saying that if you gain a track position illegally (which Alonso clearly did regardless of if he intended to or not) then its OK if the driver retires later in the race!

Quite amazing


Scaff

No absolutely not, but I am saying penalties should take into consideration changing situations rather than just slapped on regardless of circumstance. This is the crux of the issue with both penalties from Valencia and Silverstone - the penalties have had different effects because of when they were given. I think this needs to be looked at really, its not the drivers fault or the stewards fault of what happens to change the effect of the penalty but in a sense its not a consistent penalty and brings luck into it.
Quite simply, did Alonso deserve to be sent to the very back of the pack for what he did? No, he only deserved a drive through, which at most would lose him say 4 or 5 positions normally, not 10 or more. Same for Lewis, if he had the normal penalty, he wouldn't have kept 2nd place.
I was critical of Alonso and Ferrari last race for complaining about this, as it has always been. But I didn't feel Lewis' scenario even deserved a penalty, whereas in this circumstance it did but not so harsh.

I do not have a suggestion for how to improve this, but I think it should be looked at.

 

[Fastas]

So you're saying that if you gain a track position illegally (which Alonso clearly did regardless of if he intended to or not) then its OK if the driver retires later in the race!

Quite amazing


Scaff

We're heading towards a Ferrari based oval series here...

Eddie Jordan had it bang on the BBC F1 forum today when he said that Ferrari need to cool Alonso down and that Alonso is not doing his job of bringing Ferrari forward like this.
While we are all focusing on Alonso too, a word for Massa? He has had a rather silent season and pretty rubbish so far really. The car hasn't been there but Massa was 8 tenths off Alonso in qualifying for this race and he hasn't been much better earlier in the season. Ferrari have got to be thinking now whether it was a sound decision to keep Felipe on if his performances don't improve.

To be fair to Massa, I don't think he knows how to deal with Alonso. He was a much better driver with Raikkonen as a team mate.

 

[Scaff]

No absolutely not, but I am saying penalties should take into consideration changing situations rather than just slapped on regardless of circumstance. This is the crux of the issue with both penalties from Valencia and Silverstone - the penalties have had different effects because of when they were given. I think this needs to be looked at really, its not the drivers fault or the stewards fault of what happens to change the effect of the penalty but in a sense its not a consistent penalty and brings luck into it.
Quite simply, did Alonso deserve to be sent to the very back of the pack for what he did? No, he only deserved a drive through, which at most would lose him say 4 or 5 positions normally, not 10 or more. Same for Lewis, if he had the normal penalty, he wouldn't have kept 2nd place.
I was critical of Alonso and Ferrari last race for complaining about this, as it has always been. But I didn't feel Lewis' scenario even deserved a penalty, whereas in this circumstance it did but not so harsh.

I do not have a suggestion for how to improve this, but I think it should be looked at.

Luck is 100% part of racing and I totally disagree that your idea would make things more transparent and certainly would be almost unworkable.

How exactly would you bring a driver in or move them back 4 or 5 positions?


The rules are quite clear for this and the drivers / teams have two options, give back the place immediately and suffer no penalty at all (an option Alonso / Ferrari had and decided not to take) or take a drive-through penalty.

The drive through is fair in my opinion, that an element of luck enters into it (or one could argue tactics as well given that you have x laps in which to take it) is part of racing.

The stewards having to juggle a time out period or ask a driver to move back x places is both bizarre and potentially dangerous.

Also 5 places could be as little as a few seconds or could be an entire lap, how is that more fair that a drive through?

Sorry but I have to say while a drive through may be subject to luck to a degree, and as such not the perfect option, in certainly is better that what you seem to be proposing.


Scaff

 

[Ardius]

Like I said, I have no suggestion of how to improve it, but I think it should be looked at.
Luck in racing is one thing, luck with penalties is quite another. You want the penalty to achieve a desired effect yes? You want harsher penalties for more serious infringements and lighter ones for smaller infringements. Having luck in the effect of a penalty is not what it should be about - its effectively altering the severity of the rule.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I didn't enjoy this race very much, only a bit more than Bahrain.

The most exciting thing was Vettel passing through the field. It's too bad they didn't show Button's passes.

Another disappointing race by Alonso:tdown: I don't think him and Ferrari can make anything of this season. The other teams won't have enough problems. I'm throwing my support in for Webber to be world champion. He deserves it. 👍

 

[Sonzilla]

"its all the car, anyone could win".

You do know that's not my quote.. Making up things are we.. haaa

I'm of the belief that 90% of the drivers who reach Formula 1 level are great drivers. The car helps but it doesn't drive itself. Not only that but its not just driving the car around the track but conducting yourself on and off the track and keeping your cool through the season. To use your example, Alguesuari has not proven himself consistently fast enough to win a championship yet at F1 level as Buemi has generally had the better of him. Therefore, Jaime would not have been world champion in a Brawn and therefore the car does not win you the championship though it is an important part. I believe I pointed that out with the champions I mentioned.

!

So then you agree with me, lol exactly the car doesn't drive itself.
You fail to see the point that Brawn GP's car was already a fast car by design.
My example was to make a point that most of the drivers even the guys who haven't proved much during their drives have the talent. So most will have a high chance in winning the first 7 races of the 2009 season in that well designed Brawn given the circumstances that you yet again fail to see.

It's the rest of the season is where I'm making my point the most 8-17 this is 9 races during those races it's very clear as Button's flaws emerged as a driver. Go to the 2009 Season wiki and you will see exactly my point..Button is not a Top 5 driver respectably among the drivers.

Why don't you give me a top 10 from best to worst purely on skills as a F1 driver with drivers for 2010??
Where do you put Jenson?

 

[Scaff]

Like I said, I have no suggestion of how to improve it, but I think it should be looked at.
Luck in racing is one thing, luck with penalties is quite another. You want the penalty to achieve a desired effect yes? You want harsher penalties for more serious infringements and lighter ones for smaller infringements. Having luck in the effect of a penalty is not what it should be about - its effectively altering the severity of the rule.

That's the point at which we disagree.

The penalty, strictly speaking is the same, a drive-through at any given track takes the driver x number of seconds. That is the consistency of the penalty.

Now if a driver has through a combination of skill and luck during the race managed to build up enough of a buffer that they can come in for the penalty and not lose a place, then I have no issue at all with that.

The penalty is the same, the time in the pit lane (give or take a second) does not differ at all. The net affect that has on the race and the driver is subject to luck, skill and timing, the same as everything else in the race.

You are working under the impression that its a position penalty, and its not, its a time based one. The driver is taken out of 'competitive' racing for a (roughly) set period of time. Something that I see as both fair and consistent.


All of which however is ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that Alonso and Ferrari could have got away with no penalty at all, simply by giving the place back.


Scaff

 

[yeti]

What happened to Vettel after lap one? Did he give up? Until the SC came out - he wasn't doing anything special at all... that saved his race...

On the plus side - it absolutely ruined Alonso's race - which made me laugh - a lot...
Even more amusing - he would've had to use his radio to pit for new tyres after his puncture!! - Hahahahahhaaaaaa - Loser.
Then to not speak to the media cos he was in a strop - his ego is writing cheques that his skills can't cash.

Kobo is really starting to shine in the Sauber - great stuff.

Button did really well today to gain 10 places - and I'm not sure how the McLarens became quick overnight whilst in Parc Ferme!? - Amazing!!

Sutil had a good race - and was pretty roughly handled by Vettel in the dying stages - Vettel was getting pretty desperate going off track several times whilst trying to get past Sutil.

C.

 

[Famine]

What happened to Vettel after lap one?

He got a puncture on lap 1, turn 1 - caused by running into Hamilton's front wing - and barely made it back to the pits ahead of the medical car. That put him 90 seconds down on Webber, on a 98 second (at that time) lap.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Button did really well today to gain 10 places - and I'm not sure how the McLarens became quick overnight whilst in Parc Ferme!? - Amazing!!

C.

They were in Britain.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Are we really arguing Alonso's penalty?
As I said in other threads, I do like Alonso and I can see why he thinks that (desperate) move was ok, but that the team with an outside look thought it was ok and lose several positions instead of giving the place back to Kubica is beyond sane, I guess Ferrari on a power trip or something...

 

[yeti]

He got a puncture on lap 1, turn 1 - caused by running into Hamilton's front wing - and barely made it back to the pits ahead of the medical car. That put him 90 seconds down on Webber, on a 98 second (at that time) lap.

I meant more that his pace seemed pretty slow until the Safety Car...

C.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Strategically, it seems like Ferrari are getting worse year by year after Brawn left.

 

[Famine]

He was running hard tyres - when he pitted for his puncture, they changed all four from soft to hard to run him to the end of the race. Everyone else ran the softs as they'd planned.

 

[Ardius]

That's the point at which we disagree.

The penalty, strictly speaking is the same, a drive-through at any given track takes the driver x number of seconds. That is the consistency of the penalty.

Now if a driver has through a combination of skill and luck during the race managed to build up enough of a buffer that they can come in for the penalty and not lose a place, then I have no issue at all with that.

The penalty is the same, the time in the pit lane (give or take a second) does not differ at all. The net affect that has on the race and the driver is subject to luck, skill and timing, the same as everything else in the race.

You are working under the impression that its a position penalty, and its not, its a time based one. The driver is taken out of 'competitive' racing for a (roughly) set period of time. Something that I see as both fair and consistent.


All of which however is ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that Alonso and Ferrari could have got away with no penalty at all, simply by giving the place back.


Scaff

Indeed, I admitted Alonso could have avoided it, and that in fact gives further evidence for a more severe penalty than a drive through possibly.
But, with respect to penalties actually sending a message to drivers, letting them alter the severity or not considering circumstances that make it worse is sending different messages about what they should and shouldn't do.

Drivers aren't stupid, they know not to break these rules. But some drivers are more tempted to take things too far than others, such as Vettel's swerving in the China pitlane (outright stupid). You want to send a message with penalties but I'm not sure its quite right to be basically saying you shouldn't break such and such rule but its ok if you luck into a safety car that saves you. Just as much as with Alonso in that the penalty was more severe than it should have been.

What happened to Vettel after lap one? Did he give up? Until the SC came out - he wasn't doing anything special at all... that saved his race...

On the plus side - it absolutely ruined Alonso's race - which made me laugh - a lot...
Even more amusing - he would've had to use his radio to pit for new tyres after his puncture!! - Hahahahahhaaaaaa - Loser.
Then to not speak to the media cos he was in a strop - his ego is writing cheques that his skills can't cash.

Kobo is really starting to shine in the Sauber - great stuff.

Button did really well today to gain 10 places - and I'm not sure how the McLarens became quick overnight whilst in Parc Ferme!? - Amazing!!

Sutil had a good race - and was pretty roughly handled by Vettel in the dying stages - Vettel was getting pretty desperate going off track several times whilst trying to get past Sutil.

C.

4th on the grid for Hamilton proved the car was fast. They didn't really get much faster in the race, it seemed like they did in the sense of their finishing positions but you need to remember that Vettel went out early on, and the Ferrari's+everyone else were held up for a long time by Kubica which helped both Hamilton build a lead and Button to jump a lot of people.

Are we really arguing Alonso's penalty?
As I said in other threads, I do like Alonso and I can see why he thinks that (desperate) move was ok, but that the team with an outside look thought it was ok and lose several positions instead of giving the place back to Kubica is beyond sane, I guess Ferrari on a power trip or something...

Not really arguing that he should or shouldn't have had a penalty (he most definitely did deserve one), more just how harsh the penalty is.

 

[yeti]

He was running hard tyres - when he pitted for his puncture, they changed all four from soft to hard to run him to the end of the race. Everyone else ran the softs as they'd planned.

Indeed.

I think they probably turned the wick down - to save fuel for later in the race...

It seemed as if he'd given up though - but I'd have to see his timings to see if that was truly the case... (Is there a place where you can get all the timings for the GP?)

4th on the grid for Hamilton proved the car was fast. They didn't really get much faster in the race, it seemed like they did in the sense of their finishing positions but you need to remember that Vettel went out early on, and the Ferrari's+everyone else were held up for a long time by Kubica which helped both Hamilton build a lead and Button to jump a lot of people.

Yes and No - Hamilton did say that he'd put in the best lap of his life on Saturday to get that place though... But the McLarens do seem to have better Race Pace than Quali pace...

C.

 

[Ardius]

Indeed.

I think they probably turned the wick down - to save fuel for later in the race...

It seemed as if he'd given up though - but I'd have to see his timings to see if that was truly the case... (Is there a place where you can get all the timings for the GP?)

C.

If you register on formula1.com you can watch live timing.

 

[yeti]

If you register on formula1.com you can watch live timing.

Yeah - I've got the Android App for that - I keep forgetting to use it - I forgot about the car tracker as well until after the race too - Doh!!

Can you access the timings after the race?

C.

 

[Ardius]

No, I don't know if anyone bothers recording them (other than the FIA and the teams of course).

Edit: Just found the fastest laps from the autosport forum which puts the McLaren pace in perspective a little bit though you have to remember that drivers will have set these times in different conditions, we know Button was saving fuel near the end of the race and with worn tyres, he's not going to be setting fastest laps. Same for Webber, could have blitzed this but didn't because he was leading by a fair margin.

(1 8 Fernando Alonso on lap 52 - 1:30.874)
(2 7 Felipe Massa............. 52 - 1:31.646)
3 5 Sebastian Vettel........ 52 - 1:31.967
4 6 Mark Webber........... 45 - 1:32.364
(5 12 Vitaly Petrov............ 52 - 1:32.484)
6 2 Lewis Hamilton........ 43 - 1:32.758
7 4 Nico Rosberg........... 50 - 1:32.952
8 16 Sebastien Buemi...... 52 - 1:32.980
9 1 Jenson Button......... 52 - 1:33.003
10 23 Kamui Kobayashi..... 52 - 1:33.558
11 9 Rubens Barrichello... 50 - 1:33.615
12 17 Jaime Alguersuari..... 43 - 1:33.748
13 10 Nico Hulkenberg....... 48 - 1:33.989
14 15 Vitantonio Liuzzi...... 51 - 1:34.018
15 3 Michael Schumacher.. 47 - 1:34.171
16 14 Adrian Sutil.............. 42 - 1:34.337
17 22 Pedro de la Rosa...... 23 - 1:35.883
18 19 Heikki Kovalainen.... 48 - 1:36.251
19 24 Timo Glock ............ 49 - 1:36.415
20 18 Jarno Trulli ............ 44 - 1:36.519

So the McLaren's weren't that fast, though like I say, its difficult to read much into fastest laps.

 

[Seismica]

So then you agree with me, lol exactly the car doesn't drive itself.
You fail to see the point that Brawn GP's car was already a fast car by design.
My example was to make a point that most of the drivers even the guys who haven't proved much during their drives have the talent. So most will have a high chance in winning the first 7 races of the 2009 season in that well designed Brawn given the circumstances that you yet again fail to see.

It's the rest of the season is where I'm making my point the most 8-17 this is 9 races during those races it's very clear as Button's flaws emerged as a driver. Go to the 2009 Season wiki and you will see exactly my point..Button is not a Top 5 driver respectably among the drivers.

So the fact Red Bull and Mclaren overtook the Brawn car on pace in the second half of the season is irrelevant?

And the fact Button has won two races this season and is ahead of both Red Bull drivers despite being in a slower car is irrelevant also? Only Mark Webber has won more races, and he is in the fastest car. And despite his consistently poor qualifying performances, has been pretty much neck and neck with his younger, faster teammate in the Drivers Championship all season. He's not a poor driver, not in the slightest. He's one of the best out there.

Why don't you give me a top 10 from best to worst purely on skills as a F1 driver with drivers for 2010??
Where do you put Jenson?

'Skills'? Oh, you mean pure pace. Well Button has proved time and time again that raw pace is not the only skill you need in F1. Fernando Alonso this season, has proved time and time again that you need more than just pure pace in F1.

Better =/= Faster

 

[Alex.]

Guys you would not believe the day I had today. Pics coming soon.

Also, Going to Silverstone to support Vettel and Massa didn't go too well today.

 

[Pescara for GT5]

So the fact Red Bull and Mclaren overtook the Brawn car on pace in the second half of the season is irrelevant?

And the fact Button has won two races this season and is ahead of both Red Bull drivers despite being in a slower car is irrelevant also? Only Mark Webber has won more races, and he is in the fastest car. And despite his consistently poor qualifying performances, has been pretty much neck and neck with his younger, faster teammate in the Drivers Championship all season. He's not a poor driver, not in the slightest. He's one of the best out there.



'Skills'? Oh, you mean pure pace. Well Button has proved time and time again that raw pace is not the only skill you need in F1. Fernando Alonso this season, has proved time and time again that you need more than just pure pace in F1.

Better =/= Faster

I agree here, he may not be as fast as Hamilton, or the Red Bulls, but when things don't go according to plan, Button makes the best out of it, which is why he is second in the championship. Button may be the smartest driver in the field.

 

[Ardius]

Guys you would not believe the day I had today. Pics coming soon.

Also, Going to Silverstone to support Vettel and Massa didn't go too well today.

Surely Vettel's rise through the field was worthy of something?

 

[Sureboss]

Guys you would not believe the day I had today. Pics coming soon.

Also, Going to Silverstone to support Vettel and Massa didn't go too well today.

Hasn't gone too well with Massa all season. He's been the biggest disappointment of the year, quite frankly, unless he bucks up his ideas, his place must be under threat next year, that is if Alonso hasn't murdered the rest of the F1 paddock for conspriring against him, of course.

Webber is an Australian, if you rile up an Australian like RBR did with their moronic wing policy, then you can get what happened.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Webber out-pace Vettel all season and then bugger off next year. They have the best car on the grid, without a shadow of doubt, but they also find the best ways of screwing up their chances, they've learnt nothing from last year and have dropped points in a race that they should have dominated.

Awesome drives from Rosberg, Kobayashi and Barrichello today, from the "lesser" teams. McLaren will be delighted too.

Alonso got what he deserved, he unfairly gained a position and failed to give it back, which he could so easily have done.

Play with fire, you will get burnt.

Good race.

 

[Alex.]

I was talking to Adrian Newey after the race and I asked him about the radio message. He confirmed it and said Mark was a bit out of order or 'naughty' with it. He said the drivers are making something out of absolutely nothing but the mood in the team is not as bad as reported. But that still confirms the drivers have pretty much fallen out.

 

[Seismica]

Button and Kobayashi - My two favourite drivers, were the big winners today (Aside from that big Australian of course )

Button gained 10 places from his starting position and Kobayashi gained 6.

Shame about the Ferraris though, another poor/unlucky race for them. They need to sort it out soon, Red Bull and Mclaren are getting out of their reach in both the constructors and the drivers championship.

 

[Ardius]

Hasn't gone too well with Massa all season. He's been the biggest disappointment of the year, quite frankly, unless he bucks up his ideas, his place must be under threat next year, that is if Alonso hasn't murdered the rest of the F1 paddock for conspriring against him, of course.

Yup, I think Ferrari are wondering whether to pay out more money to force people not to drive for them again .
I would actually love it if Ferrari took a plunge, sacked/paid off Massa and hired Webber or Kobayashi for next season.
I would feel sorry for Massa, but his performances this year have been woeful. He really needs to be a lot closer to Alonso, he's lagging behind like Schumacher is to Rosberg, and he doesn't have the excuse of being an old man.

I was talking to Adrian Newey after the race and I asked him about the radio message. He confirmed it and said Mark was a bit out of order or 'naughty' with it. He said the drivers are making something out of absolutely nothing but the mood in the team is not as bad as reported. But that still confirms the drivers have pretty much fallen out.

I would have thought Adrian would know better than to say the drivers were being fussy. Perhaps fussy over a wing that is worth "1 tenth of a second" but not in the sense of the fact a new, better part was taken off Webber's car and put on Vettel's after the friday + saturday setup work and through no fault of Webbers. Vettel didn't break his wing on purpose, but why did Mark have to suffer? What happens next time with a part worth 5 tenths?

Its not so much the performance, like I've said in the relevant thread. Its the way Red Bull have handled it - they said it was done because of championship position yet they treat their drivers equally. These two things are mutually exclusive - you cannot be treating drivers equally if you are using a 12 point difference (i.e. not much difference at all) to justify such a rediculous alteration to the car.

I think that comment really says it all about Red Bull's management, they really don't understand the fuss the media (and the fans) are making. They don't seem to realise the significance of clearly putting better parts on one car over another and blaming one driver so fully in a famous incident.