2010 Italian Grand Prix

[daan]

The driver's can't see what we see in those camera positions.

But he should be able to see his own front wheel going sideyways.

I noticed the same thing and thought it was a bit tight, although DC or Brundle (can't remember who) commented briefly about Ratzenberger's death after the tape had finished.

I didn't see it but perhaps they said during a race on the taped bit.

If you noticed, when he entered the pits there was a lot of smoke from the tyres.

Yes, as he locked his wheels up. What's your point? I believe Vettel was consistently the fastest car on track right up to his stop.

 

[cobraagent90]

Yes, as he locked his wheels up. What's your point? I believe Vettel was consistently the fastest car on track right up to his stop.

I am just saying his tyres were in a very bad condition after 52 laps. Vettel had a bad start and a strange engine problem but nevertheless, he did pretty well
(got up 2 places)

 

[daan]

He set his fastest lap on lap 50. Clearly his tyres were fine.

 

[Terronium-12]

So I come in fresh after just having seen the replay (wasn't awake at 7:30 this morning, and wasn't trying to be awake at 7:30 this morning) but right off the bat: poor Hamilton; it could have been avoided had he gone off, but what's done is done. Despite him taking full blame for it I don't think it was anyone's fault from the way I saw it, however, as I said....it could have been avoided altogether. Also, Hulkenberg should be penalized, no two ways around it. He cut the chicane, swerved, and apparently wouldn't give up the position. Webber may have gotten the position back, but that's far beside the point.

Also, awesome (not too obvious) team orders from Red Bull. Now, had Sebastian been in the lead and that happened this would be an entirely different sentence coming from me, but considering the positions they were in...eh, I'll look the other way.

Congratulations to Alonso (how could I leave that out?) Button, and Massa. Seems Massa is finally back in (or coming back to) full form and is getting better and better each race.

 

[Antti-san]

Also, awesome (not too obvious) team orders from Red Bull. Now, had Sebastian been in the lead and that happened this would be an entirely different sentence coming from me, but considering the positions they were in...eh, I'll look the other way.

Red Bull claims it was a problem with the brakes, but who knows? If it was team orders at least RB handled it with much more finessé than Ferrari!

 

[Hun200kmh]

Say again (about RBR team orders) ??

 

[Dan360]

Ferrari had a great result today, and for once, Red Bull didn't finish in the podium! Hamilton was the only one to lose out, although he admitted to 'sticking his nose in the action'. I think he's still got his agressive, risk taking side.

 

[Terronium-12]

Say again (about RBR team orders) ??

I'm not saying they actually were "team orders" but it's just the way I perceived it. I can't remember what exactly happened as I have a bit on my mind at the moment, so please, anyone feel free to correct anything I'm about to say: Vettel complained that his engine was feeling a bit light, yet he was able to set his fastest lap (I think Webber passed at that time) and was basically able to go the entire race distance on the option tires without another "complaint" to be heard from him. Again, not saying that there were any team orders actually involved but it was all a bit too well put together, IMO.

 

[yeti]

Whilst Hamilton didn't finish - he's actually got away with it lightly - Webber only getting a 6th is good news for Lewis - he's only 5 points behind... and the person who was in 5th got first - and 4th got 2nd - so the furthest contenders got the most points... which is possibly the best result he could've hoped for after turn 4! (except for everyones cars stopping (of course))

It was a good race - I thought that Whitmarsh had his tactics wrong though - Jenson should've stayed out until Alonso came in - the 2nd car was always going to have the advantage - especially having the line into Turn 1 as well... Vettel proved that he could've stayed out all race too!!

Here's a question - what are the rules for if Vettel had've swapped tyres on the last lap?

C.

 

[The Outlaw]

So I come in fresh after just having seen the replay (wasn't awake at 7:30 this morning, and wasn't trying to be awake at 7:30 this morning) but right off the bat: poor Hamilton; it could have been avoided had he gone off, but what's done is done. Despite him taking full blame for it I don't think it was anyone's fault from the way I saw it, however, as I said....it could have been avoided altogether. Also, Hulkenberg should be penalized, no two ways around it. He cut the chicane, swerved, and apparently wouldn't give up the position. Webber may have gotten the position back, but that's far beside the point.

This is ridiculous This is the second race in A ROW in which Hulkenburg has gotten away with cutting a chicane and gaining a position without being penalized. Where the F are the stewards on this? Their incompetence is becoming laughable at this point...allthough I''m sure someone will come to their rescue and justify their unawareness

I haven't watched the race yet but will try and spot out that incident when I watch it later today.

 

[Tired Tyres]

He didn't gain a position by cutting the chicane. He avoided losing a position by cutting. Red Bull complained about it and Williams defended it by saying that he wasn't under attack at the time. The FIA agreed with Williams. They were wrong in my view but that is the way it goes.

 

[Seismica]

Ferrari had a great result today, and for once, Red Bull didn't finish in the podium! Hamilton was the only one to lose out, although he admitted to 'sticking his nose in the action'. I think he's still got his agressive, risk taking side.

He got a better run out of turn 2 because the Ferraris were in eachothers way which compromised both drivers' exit. Had there been only one car there he would have passed, but the road was blocked so he had to lift off. He did brake early but you could see he lost the back end a bit and had to countersteer which will have increased his braking distance. Not Massa's fault in the slightest, but it was hardly reckless on Hamilton's part, he braked very early for the corner but was still unable to avoid it. It wasn't nearly as bad as when he outbraked himself at turn 2 of Valencia. There he lost part of his front wing when he hit Vettel.

I can't help but think Massa could have got ahead of Alonso out of the first chicance. He did get a better run out of turns 1-2. But then again, Alonso did fight to maintain his position very aggressively, so it could just be my imagination, but I think Massa let him retake the position.

I also think Hulkenberg should have recieved a penalty. It wasn't just the first chicance, he cut the second chicane a few times aswell. In the main incident, he held Webber up on the exit, meaning had Hulkenberg not been in the way Webber would have got to the second chicane before him. That is a clear advantage because cutting the chicane allowed him to retain the position and worse still he positioned his car to block on the run down to the second chicane. The stewards said Webber wasn't sufficiently close enough, so why was he forced to lift off to avoid rear ending him? That's as close as you can get, I don't understand what they were thinking.

This is ridiculous This is the second race in A ROW in which Hulkenburg has gotten away with cutting a chicane and gaining a position without being penalized. Where the F are the stewards on this? Their incompetence is becoming laughable at this point...allthough I''m sure someone will come to their rescue and justify their unawareness

I haven't watched the race yet but will try and spot out that incident when I watch it later today.

He didn't gain a position, but Webber was close enough to have taken it had he not been blocked on the exit by the Williams returning to the track.

What resources do the stewards have? Or do they just watch the standard TV feed that is relayed to the TV stations in various countries? Because something like this would be easy to miss if it wasn't raised by one of the teams or drivers in question.

 

[The Outlaw]

He didn't gain a position by cutting the chicane. He avoided losing a position by cutting. Red Bull complained about it and Williams defended it by saying that he wasn't under attack at the time. The FIA agreed with Williams. They were wrong in my view but that is the way it goes.

I see...that explains it better. I thought it was more like the last incident at Spa where he purposely cut the bus stop and got around Sutil in doing so.

 

[Terronium-12]

This is ridiculous This is the second race in A ROW in which Hulkenburg has gotten away with cutting a chicane and gaining a position without being penalized. Where the F are the stewards on this? Their incompetence is becoming laughable at this point...allthough I''m sure someone will come to their rescue and justify their unawareness

I haven't watched the race yet but will try and spot out that incident when I watch it later today.

Can't remember which lap it was on, but right when Webber was about to pass Hulkenberg on the way after the chicane (Roggia) he kind of swerved to the right and Webber gestured at him as he was furious because it could have caused an accident. Whether or not he lost control I'd doubt as much because it was rather instant as he was on the rumble strip....most likely a maneuver to maintain his position...a stupid move at that. He later passed him through his own speed on either the Parabolica or the Grande curve, I can't remember which.

I wonder if they'll (the Stewards) let that slip by because Webber did complain about it....

EDIT: Was beaten to the punch apparently.

 

[Ardius]

I was quite impressed at Vettel running 52 laps on options and doing the tyre equivalent of a splash'n'dash. They did well to rescue 4th and 6th from what didn't look like a great weekend for them.

Even more impressive if you consider he also used them in qualifying.

 

[Seismica]

Even more impressive if you consider he also used them in qualifying.

I was also very impressed by Vettel, but not just because of his tyres. He didn't do so well in qualifying, and lost a couple of positions into turn 1 whilst stuck behind his teammate.

He managed to keep his cool and he kept going. Then he had that engine problem. Despite the hysterical note of his voice on the team radio, his lack of composure didn't appear to affect his driving like it has done in so many of the other races this season.

Maybe he's starting to mature a bit more after his terrible race at Spa. Or maybe, it's just because he had a relatively clear track rather than having to claw his way back up the field like in Silverstone.

 

[The Outlaw]

So with 5 races left on the calender, what are your guys Championship predictions for the 5 remaining contenders??? I'm asking for precitions only (not your personal favorites because you are a fan of them)

Here's mine:

1. Mark Webber WDC
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Sebastian Vettel
4. Lewis Hamilton
5. Jenson Button

 

[Ardius]

1. Hamilton
2. Webber
3. Alonso
4. Button
5. Vettel

Its close, but I think ultimately Hamilton and McLaren have more going for them than any other combination. Red Bull and Ferrari have been making far more mistakes over the season so far.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'd agree with Webber as probable Champion.

Hamilton, Button, Alonso and Vettel in 2nd 3rd 4th & 5th in no particular order.

 

[The Outlaw]

There are so many interesting variables for the 5 remaining races might I add. Alonso is on engine number 8 IIRC, meaning he will incur a 10 place grid penalty if he needs a new one...which will have a severe consequence on his Championship hopes. Then we have the fact that RBR will likely be a BIG favorite to win at the next two races (Singapore & Suzuka), yet nothing is guaranteed with them given the fact that they seem to have the most reliability issues and confilct between drivers. Then we also must take into account what technical developments/upgrades the teams make in this final sprint to the finish and how this will affect their relative performance/pace.

Things are shaping up to be immense and it's a sure bet the remaining races will add greatly to drama of one of/if not the best Formula 1 season EVER!

 

[Tornado]

I'm not saying they actually were "team orders" but it's just the way I perceived it. I can't remember what exactly happened as I have a bit on my mind at the moment, so please, anyone feel free to correct anything I'm about to say: Vettel complained that his engine was feeling a bit light, yet he was able to set his fastest lap (I think Webber passed at that time) and was basically able to go the entire race distance on the option tires without another "complaint" to be heard from him. Again, not saying that there were any team orders actually involved but it was all a bit too well put together, IMO.

The Speed broadcasters were basically throwing around the same idea as being a possibility.

 

[Ardius]

^People are making a big fuss out of nothing, seeing demons where there are none. Red Bull didn't employ team orders today.

There are so many interesting variables for the 5 remaining races might I add. Alonso is on engine number 8 IIRC, meaning he will incur a 10 place grid penalty if he needs a new one...which will have a severe consequence on his Championship hopes. Then we have the fact that RBR will likely be a BIG favorite to win at the next two races (Singapore & Suzuka), yet nothing is guaranteed with them given the fact that they seem to have the most reliability issues and confilct between drivers. Then we also must take into account what technical developments/upgrades the teams make in this final sprint to the finish and how this will affect their relative performance/pace.

Things are shaping up to be immense and it's a sure bet the remaining races will add greatly to drama of one of/if not the best Formula 1 season EVER!

McLaren have another upgrade coming at Singapore, so nothing is certain as far as pace for each team. It was noted today by Coulthard that really no team has been consistently dominant in races, there has really been very little predictability. Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren all have had fast cars all season but have tripped up at various points, I'd say McLaren making the least mistakes but having the slowest car while Red Bull have made the biggest major errors while easily having the fastest car.

I concur this is one of the best F1 seasons ever. 👍

Once again, Interlagos should be the most dramatic race.

 

[Terronium-12]

Mine would be the following..

Mark Webber
Lewis Hamilton
Fernando Alonso
Sebastien Vettel
Jensen Button

^People are making a big fuss out of nothing, seeing demons where there are none. Red Bull didn't employ team orders today

Again, I'm not saying there were any orders actually involved, but neither you or myself know that to be an absolute fact. Or, do you?

 

[Antti-san]

^People are making a big fuss out of nothing, seeing demons where there are none. Red Bull didn't employ team orders today.

I'm not saying they did either, just saying how conveniently Vettel's problem happened!

 

[Seismica]

^People are making a big fuss out of nothing, seeing demons where there are none. Red Bull didn't employ team orders today.

I agree with that, Hamilton was out on the first lap so Red Bull will have relaxed a little as damage limitation was no longer required. They had no reason to employ team orders, considering both of their drivers are close in the championship, their main competitor was out of the race and the next few races play to the strengths of their car.

McLaren have another upgrade coming at Singapore, so nothing is certain as far as pace for each team. It was noted today by Coulthard that really no team has been consistently dominant in races, there has really been very little predictability. Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren all have had fast cars all season but have tripped up at various points, I'd say McLaren making the least mistakes but having the slowest car while Red Bull have made the biggest major errors while easily having the fastest car.

If I had to make a prediction now, I would say Webber. But I think Hamilton has a very good chance if Mclaren's upgrade works well in Singapore, and Alonso will have a very good chance if the upgrades don't put Mclaren ahead of Ferrari on pace. I think whilst Button still has a chance, he's not going to outdo his teammate on the high downforce tracks if it's dry, and neither is Massa to be fair.

Korea should be an interesting race, tyre degradation could play a big part.

But I think i'll reserve judgement for now on who I think will win the title. It's too close to call at the moment. Again, if Vettel races like he raced today he could be in with a shot aswell, but we've seen him being dominated by his teammate at various races, so it's whether he can keep his form and composure. All of the top 5 guys are in with a shot. I think Massa could be aswell if the main contenders all get a bit of bad luck.

 

[tibiquera]

I can't remember when was the last time that 5 drivers were fighting for the championship. Really exciting stuff.

Great drive by Alonso, but Button had an outstanding race. Too bad he couldn't win.

It would also be a wonderful day for Hulkenberg who outdrove Rubens by a long shot, but he raced very dirty.

As always, very fun race at Monza.

 

[Ardius]

Again, I'm not saying there were any orders actually involved, but neither you or myself know that to be an absolute fact. Or, do you?

I know it to be basic logic. Either Red Bull engineered Vettel's brakes to seize up or Vettel is the best actor ever, considering nether are even slightly likely, I can say with some confidence there we no team orders.
I also find it amusing that despite the whole point of Red Bull team orders meant to be being to the benefit of Vettel, now people are suggesting Red Bull would employ team orders to favour Webber, the "Number 2 driver". Although I do think Red Bull aren't stupid enough to only favour Vettel even when clearly Webber is well ahead, that isn't the case right now.

 

[Terronium-12]

Anyone who watched the Pre-race show on Speed (I don't know if it's the same everywhere else) but there was this collection of short interviews revolving around Vettel and his race maturity, and one of the things that caught my ear was "You have to remember, he's still young and quite inexperienced." I think Newey said that, and the first thing I thought was of course Newey wouldn't look down on him because that really isn't proper team morale, but at the same time it's constructive driver's criticism. I didn't like that his age was being used as an excuse, yes, drivers of all experience levels make mistakes no one is claiming otherwise but he's clearly not in a good enough position that he can handle pressure. As we've all seen he buckles under pressure and can't seem to keep a clear head about himself.

Did Hamilton make these kinds of mistakes during his rookie year or anytime afterward (no need to inform me of the end of '08 and onwards as I've been watching consistently since then)?

I know it to be basic logic. Either Red Bull engineered Vettel's brakes to seize up or Vettel is the best actor ever, considering nether are even slightly likely, I can say with some confidence there we no team orders.
I also find it amusing that despite the whole point of Red Bull team orders meant to be being to the benefit of Vettel, now people are suggesting Red Bull would employ team orders to favour Webber, the "Number 2 driver". Although I do think Red Bull aren't stupid enough to only favour Vettel even when clearly Webber is well ahead, that isn't the case right now.

That last bit is an interesting point. Most of this is stemming from the fact that Newey (I think it was him, someone refresh my memory if I'm wrong) said, and I'm paraphrasing here that "Team orders were in play."

 

[Akmuq]

Wasn't the best of races considering what could of been but alonso and button and vettel got themselves back in the championship hunt again. This is one of the best seasons ever. The thing is though there is no fast corners at Singapore. I don't think it would be that high downforce. I think Ferrari will be better but that could change. I think it's red bulls race at Korea and suzuka.

 

[FishforRent]

I know it to be basic logic. Either Red Bull engineered Vettel's brakes to seize up or Vettel is the best actor ever, considering nether are even slightly likely, I can say with some confidence there we no team orders.

Especially since he finished ahead of Weber anyway.

Great race, regardless of no real battling on track. I think Whitmarsh blew it when he brought Button in ahead of Alonso. Button, of all the drivers, can keep his tyres in check. Even Button himself was questioning the decision.