2010 Italian Grand Prix

interludes
My issue isn't with Alonso. I'm actually pretty neutral on him. I don't particularly like him, but I don't particularly dislike him, either. No, my issue is with Ferrari - because they're not Ferrari anymore. They don't represent the things they used to. Ferrari, as a name, was the spirit of passion, of speed and excellence. They embodied everyting about the sport: exotic and competitive and passionate. Now, they're just soulless automatons who care more about winning at any cost than the actual racing. Between their little stunt in Germany, the way they lash out at the new teams simply for existing (bearing in mind that there was a time not so long ago when cars six second off the pace were commonplace - and there was a time when they were one of those teams) and their attempts to force their vision of the sport - one where they win and everyone owes something to them - as the only viable future for Formula 1 down everybody's throat and they've lost all meaning. They might be red and they might have the prancing stallion insignia, but they are not Ferrari. They deserve to spend a couple of seasons at the back of the grid, remembering who they are and where they came from. Because right now, they're just some dark parody of Ferrari - their passion and their excellence superseded by a desire to win at all costs that has undermined the sport for years. They said last year that Formula 1 would die without Ferrari. Well, Formula 1 doesn't currently have Ferrari on the grid and the sport is doing better than ever. That's why I hope Alonso's engine blows on the formation lap. I want the most important race of the season for "Ferrari" to come with the realisation that for all their dirty tactics - flexing parts, team orders - they haven't got a chance at winning the World Championship.
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Totally agree. 👍

Where is the respect and humility Ferrari? Not so much a prancing horse as a stubborn donkey right now.
 
You people have the shortest memories ever. Rascasse? Rubens in Austria? There are heaps of examples of Ferrari's .. enthusiasm that go back years and years but because why exactly have they now lost their 'pedigre spirit' recently? Unbelievable what I'm reading!!! It's like you all started watching F1 3 years ago..


Hamilton fans, the worst 👎
 
I can't stand Hamilton.

Or Alonso. In fact, Hamilton needs to join Alonso at Ferrari.
 
Famine
I can't stand Hamilton.

Or Alonso. In fact, Hamilton needs to join Alonso at Ferrari.
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I can't stand Hamilton either but I like Alonso. And what would happen to Massa if Hammilton joined Alonso at Ferrari?
 
Reims_
You people have the shortest memories ever. Rascasse? Rubens in Austria? There are heaps of examples of Ferrari's .. enthusiasm that go back years and years but because why exactly have they now lost their 'pedigre spirit' recently? Unbelievable what I'm reading!!! It's like you all started watching F1 3 years ago..
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I've been watching Formula 1 for years. Austria 2002 and Monaco 2006 were, by and large, isolated incidents. Yes, they were wrong, and it's questionable as to who was involved and to what extent, but this year has variously seen Ferrari:

a) attack newcomers for no reason other than being slower than Ferrari would like
b) attempt to push through regulation changes like three-car teams and customer chassis designed only to benefit Ferrari in the long term
c) attack the FIA for not ruling in their favour when handing out penalties (as they did in Valencia - mishandled as the Hamilton case was, there is surely a reasonable explanation as to why it took twenty minutes to review his case)
d) before attempting to penalise most of the field for a relatively-obscure rule when the safety car incident didn't go their way (I sense the hand of Ferrari in getting nine drivers penalised because they had the most to gain from it)
e) ignore steward instructions (Alonso's pass on Kubica at Silverstone; they were told three times to give the place back) and then make themselves out to be martyrs when the penalty was given
f) use team orders to manipulate a race outcome
g) and then threaten legal action against anyone who tried to punish them for the use of team orders

My point here is that 2010 has been a low point for them, and betrays an ongoing culture of this win-at-all-costs attitude. Ferrari look out for Ferrari, and while you can certainly expect every team on the grid to protect their own interests, none go to the same extent as Ferrari do. Some of the above may clearly be described as bad sportsmanship. Austria 2002 and Monaco 2006 are forgiveable incidents that may have arisen as a result of circumstance, but 2010 has proven that Ferrari perpetuate this kind of thought. And that's not cool.
 
cobraagent90
I can't stand Hamilton either but I like Alonso. And what would happen to Massa if Hammilton joined Alonso at Ferrari?
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Honestly, I never like both Hamilton and Alonso all because of each of their own attitudes. And honestly, I was a fan of Alonso in 2005 when he showed strong performances until in 2007 where he really blown it all. Since then, I never really like them.

My prediction, if Hamilton joins Alonso in Ferrari, I guess it's the ultimate chaos in F1 :lol: Well I am not sure what would happen to Massa but he should have a 2008 chance again someday.
 
Interludes, I know that when people die we tend to forget all the bad and remember only all the good about them, but what you are sying about Ferrari makes me smile because obvioulsy it means you don't know how Enzo Ferrari, the most ruthless of team owners, was.

Anyway, I am not a fan of Ferrari (or any other team for that matter) but, being a fan of Formula 1 for the past 40 years, I can peacefully say that I know a thing or two about Ferrari. And I can tel you this, to Ferrari (the team) as it was to Ferrari (Enzo), it always has been about winning. Nothing else matters, nothing else is relevant. Alonso is nothing but a driver, in a long line of them. He will one day leave, and Ferrari will remain (at least that's how they see it). From Farina, Ascari, Nuvolari and Fangio to Alonso/Massa .... all the same, they were the driving pieces in a team much larger then them.

About Luca di Montezemolo, you can also say what you want, but Ferrari (F1) will always thank him for the most difficult time, the early 1970's, when they finally gave up the dream of having F1 AND Le Mans (Ferraris in F1 where average, in Le Mans Ford got the best of them, then Porsche followed). The decision to focus ONLY ion F1, still regreted today by many, had Luca has a central piece. The result: Ferrari top-contender in 1974, Lauda champion in 1975, almost in 1976 and champion again in 1977 (Scheckter would follow in 1979).

Now, Luca is very different form Enzo. Enzo was a self-made man, hard as iron but low profile. Luca is from the blue-blood upper italian class, one roman patrician that looks to anything outside of the italian/roman heritage as coming from lower forms of culture (I know snobbery is an english word, but even the most uptight brits looking down at the european continent don't match the feeling of inner-superiority of guys like Luca). Anyway, I'm digressing: even Luca, although much more important to Ferrari than a guy like - let's say - Michael Schumacher (he worked for them a few years), is but a piece of what Ferrari is all about.

Just my two cents, don't be so angry on Ferrari and don't say they are not acting like they used to. Like it or dislike it, nothing has changed and I doubt it ever will
 
Reims_
Interesting that most british hate Alonso. The word 'fanboy' comes to mind tbch.
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I don't hate Alonso and I don't love Hamilton much. I'm definitely a Button fan but its nothing to do with nationality.

I don't think many people here hate Alonso really either, though he certainly doesn't have a lot of fans. At a guess, its mostly because he seems to be involved in a lot of controversies.

interludes
My issue isn't with Alonso. I'm actually pretty neutral on him. I don't particularly like him, but I don't particularly dislike him, either. No, my issue is with Ferrari - because they're not Ferrari anymore. They don't represent the things they used to. Ferrari, as a name, was the spirit of passion, of speed and excellence. They embodied everyting about the sport: exotic and competitive and passionate. Now, they're just soulless automatons who care more about winning at any cost than the actual racing. Between their little stunt in Germany, the way they lash out at the new teams simply for existing (bearing in mind that there was a time not so long ago when cars six second off the pace were commonplace - and there was a time when they were one of those teams) and their attempts to force their vision of the sport - one where they win and everyone owes something to them - as the only viable future for Formula 1 down everybody's throat and they've lost all meaning. They might be red and they might have the prancing stallion insignia, but they are not Ferrari. They deserve to spend a couple of seasons at the back of the grid, remembering who they are and where they came from. Because right now, they're just some dark parody of Ferrari - their passion and their excellence superseded by a desire to win at all costs that has undermined the sport for years. They said last year that Formula 1 would die without Ferrari. Well, Formula 1 doesn't currently have Ferrari on the grid and the sport is doing better than ever. That's why I hope Alonso's engine blows on the formation lap. I want the most important race of the season for "Ferrari" to come with the realisation that for all their dirty tactics - flexing parts, team orders - they haven't got a chance at winning the World Championship.
Click to expand...

interludes
I've been watching Formula 1 for years. Austria 2002 and Monaco 2006 were, by and large, isolated incidents. Yes, they were wrong, and it's questionable as to who was involved and to what extent, but this year has variously seen Ferrari:

a) attack newcomers for no reason other than being slower than Ferrari would like
b) attempt to push through regulation changes like three-car teams and customer chassis designed only to benefit Ferrari in the long term
c) attack the FIA for not ruling in their favour when handing out penalties (as they did in Valencia - mishandled as the Hamilton case was, there is surely a reasonable explanation as to why it took twenty minutes to review his case)
d) before attempting to penalise most of the field for a relatively-obscure rule when the safety car incident didn't go their way (I sense the hand of Ferrari in getting nine drivers penalised because they had the most to gain from it)
e) ignore steward instructions (Alonso's pass on Kubica at Silverstone; they were told three times to give the place back) and then make themselves out to be martyrs when the penalty was given
f) use team orders to manipulate a race outcome
g) and then threaten legal action against anyone who tried to punish them for the use of team orders

My point here is that 2010 has been a low point for them, and betrays an ongoing culture of this win-at-all-costs attitude. Ferrari look out for Ferrari, and while you can certainly expect every team on the grid to protect their own interests, none go to the same extent as Ferrari do. Some of the above may clearly be described as bad sportsmanship. Austria 2002 and Monaco 2006 are forgiveable incidents that may have arisen as a result of circumstance, but 2010 has proven that Ferrari perpetuate this kind of thought. And that's not cool.
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:lol:
Sorry ludes but this is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read you post. While you are perfectly right to not love Ferrari for those reasons, you're stating absolute rubbish as facts.

Just to pick a few lines:
They don't represent the things they used to. Ferrari, as a name, was the spirit of passion, of speed and excellence.
- And what do passion, speed and excellence manifest as? Victories perhaps?
Now, they're just soulless automatons who care more about winning at any cost than the actual racing.
- So wanting to win at all costs is not passionate? Its not striving for excellence? Its not displaying speed?
They deserve to spend a couple of seasons at the back of the grid, remembering who they are and where they came from.
- Ferrari started F1 at the front of the grid.

Ferrari have always had this Italian spirit of wanting to win at all costs. They had it worst in the early 1990s where it led to a very unstable team, as they constantly sacked drivers and designers when they didn't produce the goods.
Ferrari have never changed, they always have been political, they have always been passionate, they have always been somewhere near the front, they have always been involved in controversies.
 
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There's a difference between ruthless and spiteful. Enzo Ferrari might have tried to push his chassis and his engines onto other teams to try and increase his influence over the grid, but what happened in Valencia was just spiteful. We'll probably never know for sure, but I suspect Ferrari tried to penalise everyone simply because the Hamilton ruling didn't have the outcome they wanted. After all, IIRC, the stewards didn't look into those nine drivers breaking the delta time until after Hamilton's penalty had been served. And I'm pretty sure it didn't happen until after Ferrari told Alonso they were looking into what they could do about it. I can just see someone like Luca bent over the rulebook, trying to find the tiniest of infringements that they can hit the other drivers with so that they can get back up into position at the end of the race. The penalty given to those nine drivers was also very odd - almost as if the stewards knew someone (Ferrari, though I shouldn't have to say it) was trying to stack the finishing order to benefit them. In the end, Alonso only gained a place and two points, but to me thoe whole episode reeked of Ferrari saying "Okay, the safety car didn't go our way ... so how can we penalise the rest of the grid so that we're back to racing where we (think) we should be?"

I can't see Enzo Ferrari doing that.
 
Ardius
its mostly because he seems to be involved in a lot of controversies.
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Exactly why I like him :D He's passionate and reckless and he drives the car that way too. Button bores me, it's like watching James May in Formula 1.


The closest thing to James Hunt is Alonso imo.


Edit: I do like James May tho, particularly his sense of humour.
 
Reims_
Button bores me, it's like watching James May in Formula 1.
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I think Button is probably closer to Alain Prost. If you watch him, he's a very smooth, very fluid driver. He only ever turns the steering wheel as much as he needs to. Just watch his race in Turkey last year; the only error he made all weekend was when he missed one apex in the race. Ross Brawn said it was a perfect drive, and this is the man who worked with Michael Schumacher for so long.

I think Alonso is reckless and untamed, and that he wastes too much energy moving around. If he channeled himself and took a Button-like approach, he'd probably already have his third World Championship by now.
 
Alonso doesn't get involved in controversies because of his personality in the car. This is the problem, its all off-track stuff and more importantly, he's always involved but never implicated.
Brundle once referred to him as "Teflonso" :lol:.

Alonso is nothing like James Hunt, he's far too quiet out of the car (comparatively).
 
Wasn't Hunt a party boy? The guy smoking Marlbro's next to the fuel drums?


And I disagree about his personality impacting his driving - watch him attack esses when he's angry. Top stuff.
 
I've never liked Ferrari and I would very much prefer to see Alonso in a Red Bull or McLaren or even a Renault. It's not because I feel he is a wonderful person. On the contrary, it's quite obvious that he is ruthless and will do more or less anything to win the championship. The point is that more or less all of the F1 drivers, with the possible exception of Button, will do that. They are not guys you would want as friends, they are too full of themselves for that. The reason I like Alonso and Hamilton is because they are fantastic racing drivers. The reason I don't like Vettel is because he the attitude of those two but lacks the talent and skill and the reason I've always loathed MSC is because he goes so far as to even risk the lives of his fellow racers to win. Webber doesn't have the talent, same with Button. If all drivers were in identical cars Button and Webber would not be fighting for the driver's championship but Alonso and Hamilton would.
 
Reims_
Wasn't Hunt a party boy? The guy smoking Marlbro's next to the fuel drums?


And I disagree about his personality impacting his driving - watch him attack esses when he's angry. Top stuff.
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Indeed he was, which Alonso is not so much, at least visibly. If anyone is close to that, Raikkonen is/was.

I didn't say his personality impacted his driving. I was saying the controversies he was involved in are nothing to do with his driving. Spygate, crashgate, etc. These were nothing to do with his driving.

For the record, I preferred Montoya as an aggressive maniac driver, he carried far less political stuff with him to teams. Alonso is also surrounded by this constant "is he demanding Number 1 status?" at every team he goes to.
 
Anyway, the pre-show is on here.

TBC
 
The f1 2010 special is on.
 
Anyone else notice that they forgot about Roland Ratzenberger? "From 1990-1994 there were no deaths untill Senna at Imola."
Errm, The day before Ratzenberger died. How nice of BBC to completely forget about Ratzenbergers death..
 
Hamilton is out on lap one, taken out by Massa. Broken right suspension.
 
astrosdude91
Hamilton is out on lap one, taken out by Massa. Broken right suspension.
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He took himself out, really. He should've backed out of that one.
 
Ok, not totally taken out by Massa. Massa was involved, but it wasn't Massa's fault. Should have worded that better.
 
He took himself out quite badly.


And I love watching Schumi race!
 
Having a blast seeing Sutil battling his way back up the order 👍
 
Vettel's now reporting that he's suffering from an engine problem. The luck continues to avoid him.
 
Team orders at Red Bull? It's a little strange with seb don't you think?
 
It is a bit odd. Since my post he's been lapping back on race pace.
 
I loved Eddie Jordan trying to fuel the conspiracy, I must admit it does seem a little weird but Seb seriously sounded worried about his engine.
I'm loving Sutil climbing from the back. Anyone know why Kobayashi stopped? :(
 
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