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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by prisonermonkeys, Oct 19, 2010.
+ 1 to albteman015
Its already been well discussed, and will continue to be - but my stance on team orders is the same as before, it should never have been "banned" in the first place as it is unenforcable and it tricks people into thinking there are no team orders when there always will be. The rule effectively created its own controversy where there had been a lot less before.
Its like banning swimming and everyone pretends they don't swim. Then one person is found out and its a big shock to those who believed the ban actually worked.
There are many examples in the past of drivers succeeding through team orders and "team orders" or "team preferences" can affect any number of things in a team down to who gets which parts and who goes out on track first. In a ideal world, we would have no team orders, but as long as there are teams fielding two drivers, its always going to be advantageous in some respects to help one over the other. And there is little the FIA can do to prove that there are team orders (for the purposes of regulating it) as its such a vague and broadly-defined term.
Not that people have to like Alonso or should enjoy seeing him win, people are entitled to prefer teams such as McLaren which attempt to operate a balanced driver policy (though even McLaren have felt the need to use team orders). But I think referring to Alonso winning as "disgusting" or anything stronger is in my opinion over-the-top. Its not going to be the last time we see team orders and it certainly isn't the first, if you feel so strongly about such actions, I suggest you watch another sport as its unlikely to ever change.
Yea , you are right but some people can't get that through their thick skulls. I had an argument in another forum about it an the guy threatened to hack my account and my email because my view conflicted with his. I just can't believe some people man.
Woah woah woah slow down cowboy.
I'm Australian and my favourite drivers in the current 'ship are Schumi and Alonso.
As for 'MarkWebber', I would say he's incredibly naive and started watching F1 around the time Hamilton showed up. The only reason traction control was in F1 was because no one could prove Benetton wasn't using (cheating) it...
It's funny, I made a point of my nationality earlier in the thread to show I wasn't biased and someone pulls apart my post and has a dig at me for doing it. *Sigh*
'MarkWebber' is also showing a bad Australian trait of tall poppy syndrome too.
Personally I find it adds a whole new dimension to the sport and makes it more interesting, it adds a bit of extra psychology and politics. It also helps develop certain characters.
Some say the action should just be on the track but I don't see it as one or the other. Its not a choice between robots driving overtaking-fests or political soap operas driving snooze-fests, particularly this year which has had plenty of overtaking and politics (though nothing like last year's!).
I agree, I also have always liked some politics in f1. We are talking about the largest form of racing no? I always liked that when something goes wrong it is always blown out of proportion by the media. Then whoever was at fault has to do a million interviews about it. It makes the teams feel human. Think about it we are talking about guys who work in arguably the most ruthless and competitive field of motorsport. We as fans would like to think of them as humans, who even at this stage make some mistakes. We want to think of them as normal rather then some god status which some people chose to make some drivers and teams. Plus no team orders means that we get to see which of the teams two drivers has the testicals to take on the championship responsibilities of the team.
I'm going to say this again, and for the last time. The team orders rule is bonkers, and was only put up to hinder Schumacher's domination of the entire sport, including his teammate, and you don't see that kind of domination anymore. In a desperate cahmpionship like this, where a single retirement or poor result will cost you, you will need all the points you can get. Especially with Turkey imprinted in our minds, Red Bull ruining each others race, and McLaren almost doing it.
Your last few posts are disgusting to look at. I hope, just for the lulz, that Webber's engine fails next race.
I absolutely loathe team orders. But there's no way to prevent team-mates pulling aside for each other if the other guy has a better chance of winning. There is no "I" in team... although if you mix the letters up, you get "me" and "at".
Fernando fully deserved the success he got this weekend and the lead in the points race. He's put his head down, raced hard in an inferior car, and has fought his team-mate and his team for the right to be top dog. He's whiny, overly-dramatic, tempermental and ruthless. But he gets the job done. He's given blood, sweat and tears for every single one of those points on the board.
While Mark has a cheeky way of "oopsing" into other drivers, it doesn't really make sense to take out Nico... because Nico is scoring points that would otherwise go to McLaren. Heck... if both Nico and Schumacher had finished, they could have sandwiched Hamilton before he got on top of his tires and wrestled him out of another position.
Granted... some drivers are not above pettiness. Hamilton and Mclaren took a jab at a Toyota driver in "Lie-gate"... but at this point in the game, the midfielders are your allies, taking away points from your enemies.
O, hai, I is laughing because Lewis' gearbox blew up last race. I'm such an unsportsmanlike person... really. I is also laughing because I is going to crash somebody out of the race, okee?
Niky, Shouldn't the second half of your post be on this thread - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=126386&page=316 -
I wonder who at Ferrari realized that it's best to stay calm. They must have run out of gasoline for the fire.
Alonso is seriously low on engines too. Wouldn't be surprised if he blows one.
Isn't more or less everyone of the top teams on their last engine? Alonso can also re-use his first engine from Bahrain in Abu Dhabi.
Edit: RBR doesn't seem to happy about the engine situation either http://tinyurl.com/2878nky
I believe FA's Bahrain engine had already been discarded quite early in the year. The plan is to use the Monza engine for both Brazil and Abu Dhabi from what I hear - and then the Spa engine (and possibly one of the pre-updated engines) for practices. On paper he should be ok, but of course you never know. Each engine is scheduled to last at least 3 races, but Monza is a pretty hard circuit on the engine of course, which is something to consider. One good thing to consider for Ferrari is that Sauber (from what I hear) has gotten 5 races out of one of the updated Ferrari motors, so I don't think they are in too bad of a situation, unless something out of the norm happens (like with Vettel's engine @ Korea)
And yea, Vettel isn't in a very ideal situation with his engines either. All of his remaining engines most likely have as much mileage as his #8 engine which failed in Korea. Webber on the other hand is sitting pretty in that regard (engine #8 only has a few laps on it from Korea).
I started watching Formula1 one the first race Mark Webber competed in, with Minardi, back in 2002. Essentially speaking, whenever Webber fails usually within a second I switch it off.
Oh so you like it when for no apparent reason the leading car slows to allow the trailing car to overtake, the rule was introduced in F1 to SAVE the sport mate, and Ferrari went back to it's old habits, and did it again this year, what a pack of pansies.
Please please stop talking already. You in the last few pages have made an absolute fool out of yourself. You are fully entitled to be a fan of Webber but your comments have gone too far, are unfounded, lack knowledge most of the time and are simply immature.
At this rate I'm expecting you to somehow blame Ferrari for tampering with Webber's engine if god forbid he has an engine failure in the next two races.
For a 25 year old you really have a lot to learn.
Please stop saying stop talking to me, I have a right to say whatever I please as long as it's within the rules, I made a tragic slip up yesterday when I wished Alonso would crash, a pretty bad mistake and I paid the price as I received an infraction. Your last comment, the blaming Ferrari for tampering with Webber's gearbox, is just a complete waste of text, it serves no purpose here because obviously that situation will not occur in this universe. I don't give a vaulting gymnast what you think of me and my posts, I will continue to post when I feel as If something needs to be said. If you don't like what I say, feel free to comment on them, but please have something intelligent to say next time, regarding the current situation, no body wants to read about someone insulting or ridiculing another member.
This is why I called you naive. You need a deeper understanding of motorsport and teammates if you think what Ferrari did earlier in the year was rare. How many times did Heiki move out of Hamilton's way over the course of a season? What Ferrari did happens almost every week in F1 (just not as obvious) and it certainly happens every week worldwide in motorsport.
What Ferrari did was not rare, especially by their standards, and they were dully punished, it does not happen every week in the fashion in which they displayed. I hope of reasonably accurate understanding of motorsport.
Wow, now Gerhard Berger says Webber didn't brake after hitting the wall to involve Alonso or Hamilton...
Sorry, I'm a bit late...
I think he is right. If I was in webber's position, I would have done the same thing.
Michael, is that you?
Sure it does, its just not as publicised in other motorsports because its not "banned" in other motorsports (and Formula 1 has always been the most popular form in the media).
I regularly watch Touring Cars, GT and Le Mans series and they all usually display some form of obvious team orders at one stage or other.
And if you watch WRC, its actually even worse than F1.
If you understood motorsport, you would understand its not practical to ban team orders. Ferrari are not alone in displaying it in an obvious fashion either, or are we just going to use selective memory on incidents such as Coulthard and Hakkinen?
Webber's crash did look a bit odd. I did have a hunch that he tried something. He didn't look like he was braking at all, and the car swerved right back onto the racing line, almost as if he steered it back on to take someone out with him. The onboard says otherwise, but there seems to be a brief moment, where his hands are on the wheel, after colliding with the wall. Maybe Berger wasn't completely wrong.
I am just wondering. If any of you were in weber's shoes, what would you have done?
Not crashed, first of all
Well, i'd feel the car gonig off, but i'd keep my hands on the wheel a bit longer to see if I can keep some sort of control. I'd be all on the brakes, of course. And i'd try and nurse the car to the pits, if it wasn't too damaged.
No, I mean after the crash. If you had the crash the ability to stop the car but you knew that if you didn't, you have the chance of taking out one of your rivals. Would you take that chance.
You can't expect to get anything other than the socially correct answer from most/if not all people around here With that said, I don't think most people can REALLY put themselves in Webber's shoes and understand exactly what is on the line for him either and the amount of internal pressure he has on himself to achieve what is considered to be the pinnacle achievement in the sport.
We will never know Webber's intentions after he hit the wall - only him and possibly a select few people within the team have any idea. I will say that to compete at this high of a level in motorsports or sports in general, you must be pretty ruthless and selfish at times - so nothing would surprise me. I'm not one naive enough to completely discount the fact that he could have possibly had bad intentions, but nor am I at all claiming that he unquestionably did, going around spewing off like Mr. Berger did.
To be honest, that you are willing to consider it a possibility is just as bad as what Berger is saying IMO. Call Webber a 2nd rate driver all you want, but how about giving him the benefit of the doubt?