2010 new teams discussion

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ardius
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:lol:

I just looked at their website and saw they had some job openings. I guess the HR department can't do product design?
 
Poor Zoran, he can't think of everything :p

Anyway, Massa really has changed:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81892

Is it just me, or does that sound a little elitist perhaps? Has he already forgotten his time with Sauber when he used to qualify almost 3 seconds off the fastest times?
Perhaps Button should complain about how the Ferrari's used to get in his way in qualifying last year? :p
What happened to the nice, measured Massa who didn't stick his nose in it?
 
Alonso as team mate, that's what happened.
 
As always, blame everything on Alonso :rolleyes: :lol:
 
He seems focused on the danger element of slower teams, rather than just being slowed down, and after what he went through last year, you can hardly blame him. He's probably a lot more conscious about danger than he ever previously was.

You can, however, question if he's thus fully psychologically recovered. I guess we'll get the answer when the season gets underway.
 
I think its a little over-reactive when we are only talking a few seconds here, as I pointed out, he should know all about being a few seconds off the pace. It doesn't make it "dangerous" at all!
However, seeing Virgin's front wing falling off like that is a worry and I would agree if he was referring to their reliability - naturally he doesn't want more parts flying about!
But he is referring to their pace and being in the way for his flying laps....which is a little elitist to say the least. Traffic has always been a problem, with or without new teams there, so he has every right to complain, drivers always complain. But its not a "safety" concern.

Give the new teams a chance to get going before we start attacking them!

Now, 10+ seconds difference, thats dangerous. The danger comes from closing speeds and overall differences in performance making it difficult to judge what the driver in front is going to do and where to brake. But 3-5 seconds difference? It wasn't a problem before, why should it be now?
The only thing dangerous at Bahrain will be the Hispania cars, which have never been tested.
 
Now, 10+ seconds difference, thats dangerous. The danger comes from closing speeds and overall differences in performance making it difficult to judge what the driver in front is going to do and where to brake. But 3-5 seconds difference? It wasn't a problem before, why should it be now?

I don't disagree with you at all, hence questioning his psychological recovery. I'm sure we can all understand that having had a major incident like last year will have him worried, irrational and obsessive even, about safety.

But if he's concerned about such an unlikely source of danger (slightly slower teams), how will he cope with battling on track? Maybe it's too soon to let him back, or maybe he'll regain his confidence after getting back into the flow.
 
To me, it sounds like Massa's "Toe-ing the company line" in regards to the new teams. Not that surprising really, as Ferrari have been the most critical of how the entry process was handled...
 
I think its a little over-reactive when we are only talking a few seconds here, as I pointed out, he should know all about being a few seconds off the pace. It doesn't make it "dangerous" at all!
However, seeing Virgin's front wing falling off like that is a worry and I would agree if he was referring to their reliability - naturally he doesn't want more parts flying about!
But he is referring to their pace and being in the way for his flying laps....which is a little elitist to say the least. Traffic has always been a problem, with or without new teams there, so he has every right to complain, drivers always complain. But its not a "safety" concern.

Give the new teams a chance to get going before we start attacking them!

Now, 10+ seconds difference, thats dangerous. The danger comes from closing speeds and overall differences in performance making it difficult to judge what the driver in front is going to do and where to brake. But 3-5 seconds difference? It wasn't a problem before, why should it be now?
The only thing dangerous at Bahrain will be the Hispania cars, which have never been tested.

Elitism in F1!? coming from Ferrari!? What a surprise! :lol: jk. Fortunately for Virgin, Lotus, and HRT (although we don't know their competitiveness), the statements in this article are only pre-season words of criticism coming from a driver competing against them in the Championship...which means they don't hold much merit when it comes to their future performances. Those words only ruffle the feathers of those who let them get underneath their skin...that's all.

As usual it should be noted that we don't know the validity of this article, nor if those were the exact words Massa had to share with the media to begin with.

To me, it sounds like Massa's "Toe-ing the company line" in regards to the new teams. Not that surprising really, as Ferrari have been the most critical of how the entry process was handled...

Definitely agree.
 
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To me, it sounds like Massa's "Toe-ing the company line" in regards to the new teams. Not that surprising really, as Ferrari have been the most critical of how the entry process was handled...

Elitism in F1!? coming from Ferrari!? What a surprise! :lol: jk. Fortunately for Virgin, Lotus, and HRT (although we don't know their competitiveness), the statements in this article are only pre-season words of criticism coming from a driver competing against them in the Championship...which means they don't hold much merit when it comes to their future performances. Those words only ruffle the feathers of those who let them get underneath their skin...that's all.

As usual it should be noted that we don't know the validity of this article, nor if those were the exact words Massa had to share with the media to begin with.

I know Ferrari are elitist, they always have been.
Massa however, has not. He was fairly respectful in times gone by, or at least I seem to remember him being. He doesn't need to follow the "company line", he doesn't need to say anything at all if he doesn't agree with Ferrari's comments. He could just say "I think they will struggle" when asked about them, thats not really being supportive of new entries but neither is it being arrogant like that other statement.
Maybe I had Massa all wrong, which is a shame, because he seemed a lot more likable. This just makes him sound no better than Hamilton - either he's letting his employers put words in his mouth or he's not the personality I thought.

And yes, naturally his words could have been minced. We shall see come Bahrain qualifying if backmarkers is one of his excuses ;) :p

I also realise it doesn't mean anything about the new team's true performance, I never said it did? :lol: I just find Massa's exaggerated comments a bit odd coming from him.
 
I think Massa's got it together, there is no way he'd be stepping into the car if he wasn't fit for it. These comments work in two ways; firstly they serve up an excuse just in case he doesn't have the pace or gets tucked up under one of these car's rear wing for too many corners. Secondly, it fires out a reminder to the rookies who may get carried away with their own moment and inadvertently spoil someone else's.
 
I don't think he has anything wrong with him health-wise, its just I think his personality has changed since the accident, he was pretty vocal about "Alonso stealing my title" and so on, now this too. Major crashes have been know to change people's personalities, I'm wondering if it has for Massa too.
 
I know Ferrari are elitist, they always have been.
Massa however, has not. He was fairly respectful in times gone by, or at least I seem to remember him being. He doesn't need to follow the "company line", he doesn't need to say anything at all if he doesn't agree with Ferrari's comments. He could just say "I think they will struggle" when asked about them, thats not really being supportive of new entries but neither is it being arrogant like that other statement.
Maybe I had Massa all wrong, which is a shame, because he seemed a lot more likable. This just makes him sound no better than Hamilton - either he's letting his employers put words in his mouth or he's not the personality I thought.

And yes, naturally his words could have been minced. We shall see come Bahrain qualifying if backmarkers is one of his excuses ;) :p

Well maybe Ferrari's elitism has rubbed off on Massa 💡

I'm not particularly surprised that Massa has developed a mouth and personality of his own as he has become more successful in F1, as well being on the receiving end of a very unfortunate situation in 2008.

Personally I rather have someone who speaks their mind (even if I don't agree), than one who speaks what is socially correct to gain acceptance, while fooling everyone else around them...like a few blokes in F1 👎

I also realise it doesn't mean anything about the new team's true performance, I never said it did? :lol: I just find Massa's exaggerated comments a bit odd coming from him.

I don't think anyone said you did.
 
Indeed, speaking their mind is good, but I'm not questioning or critcising that either :p
Either way, angry Massa is certainly increasing the chances of a bit of fire in the Ferrari camp! Wonder when he'll step the wrong side of Alonso.
 
Either way, angry Massa is certainly increasing the chances of a bit of fire in the Ferrari camp! Wonder when he'll step the wrong side of Alonso.

Eek...Ferrari already have enough fire in their camp with two drivers as competitive and hungry as those two :lol: Fighting for wins and the WDC will be like two tigers in a cage fighting over a piece of raw meat :p
 
Found the original source, surprise, surprise:
http://www.ferrari.com/English/News/Pages/100306_F1_Massa_fresh_start_winning_Felipinho.aspx

I guess pinch of salt should be a bag load here, I think now I know where its from, its safe to say its a load of company talk. It may as well be called "interview with Luca di Montezemolo" :lol: I laughed at the Schumacher-testing bit.
Its just missing:
"What would you improve with F1?"
Massa: "We need to have 3 cars in F1, omg can't believe FIA and the other teams laughed that idea out!"
 
It's certainly going to be a tough season for the guy. He's got a lot to deal with and maybe, just maybe, he is a bit nervous. He probably feels that the whole world is watching him and he maybe feeling the added pressures of the new season.

I hope for Massa's sake it doesn't turn into another Barachello/Schumi situtation.

On the Alonso situation, does anyone think that his relationship with Massa and comparatively, Hamilton's with Button will reveal more about the team dynamics of the respective drivers?
 
I actually think the Hamilton/Button relationship will get some friction fairly quickly, Hamilton is already appearing to defer to Jenson and defend him (note the McLaren launch). Lewis is clearly going out of his way to start a good relatioship with Jenson but I think this may count against him, it may inadvertently alienate Jenson a bit - especially if Jenson thinks its McLaren orders for Lewis.
It will be very interesting indeed to watch, I think Lewis genuinely wants to have a better teammate relationship than he did with Alonso but I think he may go OTT with it. Jenson on the other hand appears relaxed and composed, at least judging by his interviews.
I hope Jenson talks to Lewis and guide him a bit, at least stop Lewis giving all these double-faced statements, such as "I beat Alonso lol" to "I handled Alonso badly" and "I don't know, ask the team" to "The team work really hard".

I don't think the Massa/Alonso relationship will surprise me, I fully expect fireworks both on and off track.
 
Is it just me, or does that sound a little elitist perhaps? Has he already forgotten his time with Sauber when he used to qualify almost 3 seconds off the fastest times?
Yeah, I picked up on that. If Massa thinks he's going to have trouble getting past the backmarkers when he's out in front - especially since he thinks they'll be four seconds a lap slower when he only needs to be going one or two seconds faster to pass them - then he probably shouldn't be a racing driver.

Formula 1 features the best drivers racing in the best cars. It's the pinnacle of motorsport, the best racing series in the world. It stands to reason that it's not going to be easy.

I seem to be losing more and more respect for Ferrari with each passing day.
 
Yeah, I picked up on that. If Massa thinks he's going to have trouble getting past the backmarkers when he's out in front - especially since he thinks they'll be four seconds a lap slower when he only needs to be going one or two seconds faster to pass them - then he probably shouldn't be a racing driver.

First of all, where in the article was it mentioned that he would particularly have issues getting by backmarkers while he's out in front (in a racing situation)?

Secondly, Ardius noted that this article was originally sourced from Ferrari.com, meaning it probably doesn't reflect the exact views of Massa, as it was likely twisted to Luca's Di Montezemolo's liking...which I personally can't say I fully agree with.
 
I doubt Ferrari could get away with changing their drivers' words in an interview; and if Massa is allowing that to happen, what does that say about his character?
 
I doubt Ferrari could get away with changing their drivers' words in an interview; and if Massa is allowing that to happen, what does that say about his character?

Why? They have the rights to what is posted on THEIR website. Not Felipe.

Even if Massa allowed such a thing to slip by, he surely has bigger things to worry about anyway, with the first GP less than a week away.
 
No, you can't put words into people's mouths without their consent, not even as an employer. It just doesn't work; people can find this out quickly. Even if they tried, all it takes is for a journalist to bring up the interview; Massa will either have to admit he doesn't know about it, or admit he endorses it.
 
I think I'll make some assesements and predictions for the new teams ahead of Bahrain practice, seeing as now know the full driver line up and have a better understanding of where each stand.
I am rating them out of 5 relative to each new team, rather than relative to the current teams. So, 5 is the best possible for a new team, for example, Trulli and Kovy get 5 as a line-up not because they are Schumachers, but because for a new team they are as good as you can get.
Lotus F1 Racing
Lotus_f1_racing.jpg

Drivers: 5/5
Extremely experienced line-up here, both race winners and combined with the experienced technical staff should accelerate Lotus' development over the year while keeping the cars on the road and avoiding typical rookie mistakes (though Kovy is a worry sometimes). Both are good qualifiers, which makes it easier for the team to know what the car's potential is.
Technical team: 5/5
Gascoyne is a known quantity, he's taken many teams towards to the top but he is steady in his methods, which can be seen in the car. The rest of the staff are a mix of Toyota and Renault staff. So lots of experience here and clearly well organised if you consider their time to get ready.
Preparation: 4/5
With only 5 months to design and build the car, its clearly meant a very basic and possibly slow design has had to be used. They have used some unreliable parts for their hydraulics and gearbox (both Xtrac parts) which will possibly hamper them early on. Fortunately though, Virgin and HRT have a similar problem. Otherwise, the team has made 2 tests and gained a lot of mileage. The speed that they have put the team and car together is quite amazing really, but of course it was made a lot easier with all those experienced personnel around. Prepared but with a slow car.
Car design: 3/5
Lotus' weakest area, the signs are that it might be the slowest of the new teams. However, it appears to be highly reliable as Gascoyne has gone for a basic but solid base to start from. The only issues that came up in testing were a lack of hydraulic power and an inadequate gearbox, both of which are going to be solved through the year.
Overall: Should be a good learning year for Lotus, they are the best prepared of the new teams, they have the strongest team. Fernandes seems a fun guy and quite a rational team principal. I'd bet on them for points in the odd race where there is a small number of finishers.

Virgin Racing
Virginracing.png

Drivers: 4/5
A great line up really, its only missed out on 5 because the Lotus line up is there. Glock is an experienced and measured driver, he's experienced smaller teams before (Jordan) and he impressed me a lot over 2008. He seems to have a real skill for making long strategies work in a race, which is all that Virgin will be doing this season. Di Grassi is a little unknown, but again he is experienced as a test driver for Renault and is well-rated from his junior formulae. Rookie mistakes are expected but he's got a great driver to learn from with Glock.
Technical team: 4/5
Wirth has a fair bit experience in F1, though not much recently. His Acura LMP's are doing well so he isn't a complete idiot when it comes to design. The Simtek's were aerodynamically sound back in the day too. However, he does have a questionable history with the split-rear wing idea, etc. John Booth and Manor Motorsport are one of the best and most professional teams around in European open-wheel motorsport, so there is little doubt they should be competent in F1. I heard some Renault personnel also moved with Di Grassi, so experience is here too.
Preparation: 4/5
Almost the opposite of Lotus, they've had far more time to prepare and have made it. Their design appears to be well developed but the testing has raised a major issue with their hydraulic system as well as some new team mistakes like not attaching front wings properly! However, they should be able to overcome these problems now they know from testing, unlike HRT.
Car design: 3.5/5
I was going to give 4 based on their possible speed, but Barcelona raised more questions about reliability and whether they do have much advantage over Lotus in speed at all. Reliability is a big question going to Bahrain and the CFD-only approach may hurt them over the season.
Overall: If they have their troubles sorted for Bahrain, similar year for them as Lotus, though they may make a couple more mistakes with the relative lack of experience in the team. Might not make the points, but they should challenge Lotus a bit, maybe even beat them, who knows?

Hispanic Racing F1 Team
HRT_F1.PNG

Drivers: 2/5
The worst driver line up of the new teams. Let me just say that this is not a reflection on Senna or Chandhok's skills but purely a note on them both being rookies with little experience in F1. Senna has had some tests though. Senna was ok in GP2 but Chandhok was nothing special. Buemi and Kobayashi have proved you don't need to be brilliant in GP2 to shine in F1, but its still a worry. Rookie mistakes will be rife, especially with zero testing this season for either driver with this car.
Technical team: 3/5
Slightly better than drivers, thanks to the Dallara partnership. Kolles is experienced and knows what not to do. But they have their work cut out to sort the car out in Bahrain practice. Dallara is pretty much their saving grace and should provide a decent design at least.
Perparation: 1/5
Very poor preparation, no testing, barely even made it to the grid really. I expect a mass of reliability problems in the early races and big struggle for them to finish the season if they are still chasing sponsors. Neither driver is prepared, the team has been rushed together at the last minute (Kolles said Campos basically had a few people...so I guess they have had to mass-hire very quickly recently).
Car design: (4/5)
Ignoring the bad preparation I actually think Dallara may have designed the best car, at least for speed. However, I can only guess so hence the score in brakets. Its a complete unknown but judging the design of the car, it appears well developed.
Overall: The awful preparation and huge lack of experience in this team puts them at the back without a doubt. Their future is still very much in question and I wonder if they will finish the season. The car may have pace but this team is going to be stuggling from the start.

Bahrain Qualifcation prediction: (assuming no problems for all teams and all manage a fast lap).
Positions 1-18 - Current teams.
19th: Trulli
20th: Kovalainen
21st: Glock
22nd: Di Grassi
23rd: Senna
24th: Chandhok
 
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Anyone seen the new safety car yet?

safetycar-2010.jpg


I think it looks awesome!
 
Bahrain Qualifcation prediction: (assuming no problems for all teams and all manage a fast lap).
Positions 1-18 - Current teams.
19th: Trulli
20th: Kovalainen
21st: Glock
22nd: Di Grassi
23rd: Senna
24th: Chandhok

I'm not so sure. I don't think Dallara are fools. I have a feeling that car will spring a surprise this season.
 
I'm not so sure. I don't think Dallara are fools. I have a feeling that car will spring a surprise this season.

I believe Senna said that even though they haven't got a yard of practice in that car yet, he is sure that his car is a full second quicker than the other 2 newcomers.
 
I'm not so sure. I don't think Dallara are fools. I have a feeling that car will spring a surprise this season.

Yes, I mentioned that in my team previews - but that prediction is for Bahrain - do you really think a car with no testing and two rookies is going to be anywhere other than back of the grid, Dallara or not? I will be very surprised if they are ahead of Virgin and Lotus at first unless there are some mechanical troubles during Qualifying or Practice.
I don't think it will be Mastercard-Lola bad, but they have it all against them in Bahrain.

Also, although Dallara are experienced, they are not immune from designing a bad car either, but I agree its unlikely. Its all guess work though as none of us know how good that car is.
 
No, you can't put words into people's mouths without their consent, not even as an employer. It just doesn't work; people can find this out quickly. Even if they tried, all it takes is for a journalist to bring up the interview; Massa will either have to admit he doesn't know about it, or admit he endorses it.

That doesn't hold much merit really. It would be naive to think that there is some automatic validation process after every controversial statement a driver or team makes, which determines the truth behind a particular statement in a publication.

What makes you all of a sudden so sure they are unable to "put words into people's mouths without their consent", when your comment before this clearly showed that you were unsure if they could get away with such a thing?

I doubt Ferrari could get away with changing their drivers' words in an interview; and if Massa is allowing that to happen, what does that say about his character?
 
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That doesn't hold much merit really. It would be naive to think that there is some automatic validation process after every controversial statement a driver or team makes, which determines the truth behind a particular statement in a publication.

What makes you all of a sudden so sure they are unable to "put words into people's mouths without their consent", when your comment before this clearly showed that you were unsure if they could get away with such a thing?

Ok, let me tell you straight: It can't happen. Not Ferrari writing false quotes for Massa. I already said why this is impossible. Even if they tried. Eventually the truth will come out if they try to do this. I didn't say it would happen "automatically", but with time someone will know, especially with such a high profile driver who gets scrutinized by the media constantly.

No, you can't put words into people's mouths without their consent, not even as an employer. It just doesn't work; people can find this out quickly. Even if they tried, all it takes is for a journalist to bring up the interview; Massa will either have to admit he doesn't know about it, or admit he endorses it.
 
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