2010 new teams discussion

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Hun200kmh
Hispania F1 is as bad as US F1 ... I just hope this doesn't happen:

Tyrrell > BAR > Honda > Brawn > Mercedes > Germany Racing F1 Team :yuck:
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Yeah, the nationalism thing is getting a bit much now, it was nice before to have a little bit of pride, like Ligier, Ferrari and Lotus...but to name your team after the countries and starting to design the whole team around it is instantly a no-no.
Its unavoidable to stop companies hiring national blood, its only natural for marketing purposes. But when it starts to become a focus for the sport, its not good.

I think measured nationalism is ok to an extent, the group mentality thing. I mean without it, we wouldn't have Lotus returning (Malaysia's wish to build their motorsport identity) but at the same time it can lead to diluting the talent pool with drivers who are chosen for nationality rather than talent.
 
Hispania Racing sounds as stupid as it could reasonably sound (not reasonably, it would be something like Flamenco and Bulls F1 Team). Let's recap:

A Brazilian, an Indian(?) and an Argentinean drive a car with Italian-based chassis and English-based engines. The team owner is Spanish.
 
SUPER NUMBBER
Wholeheartedly agree. Said the same thing when Force India came about.
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At least though, Vijay hasn't been a nationalistic moron and has run a solid team.👍 Otherwise he would have hired Chandhok and Karthikeyan.

orimarc
Hispania Racing sounds as stupid as it could reasonably sound (not reasonably, it would be something like Flamenco and Bulls F1 Team). Let's recap:

A Brazilian, an Indian(?) and an Argentinean drive a car with Italian-based chassis and English-based engines. The team owner is Spanish.
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Indeed, not to mention a German team principal too and possibly soon an American investor. Ligier had more national pride in it despite less national influence on the team name.
Name it Kolles or Carabante.
 
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Peterram430
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=359089&FS=F1
Campos to change thier name to Hispania Racing F1 Team. The artical also predicts they'll sign Karun Chandhok as a driver, which seems a bit strange to me. Chandhok seems a nice guy, I follow him on Twitter, but his GP2 results havn't exactly been amazing and I can think of many better potential drivers.
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More importantly about this article - is that they might be about to launch the car on Thursday too...

C.
 
Ok, my bad, the name of the team will be HRT F1. Although I prefer real names over a few capital letters as the denomination of a team, I wish them the best of luck and - who knows - maybe one day HRT will have as much significance in F1 history as, say, BRM :)
 
How many people are going to be shocked with the following?

yahoo.com

The troubled USF1 team have asked to defer their Formula One debut for a year to 2011, team principal Ken Anderson has confirmed.
"We have applied to the FIA to hold our entry until 2011," he told the autosport.com website. "We are waiting for a reply from the FIA and are working with them.

"In the meantime, there is nothing for the employees to do, so we have told them to stop working on the current car until we have a decision."

The governing body, who sent F1 race director Charlie Whiting on a fact-finding visit to the team factory last week, is expected to announce a final entry list in the next day or two for the season starting in Bahrain next week.

USF1, based in Charlotte, North Carolina, are one of four new teams handed a slot on the starting grid for 2010 after checks by the governing body, but have struggled to raise finance and are in no position to race.

They had announced in January that Argentina's Jose Maria Lopez would drive for them in a deal backed by that country's government.

The Serbian-backed Stefan GP team, who have taken over the cars designed by Toyota before that Japanese manufacturer pulled out at the end of last year, have been lobbying hard to take USF1's place.

"SGP would like to re-confirm its desire and...its ability to compete in the whole of the FIA 2010 Formula One World Championship," the team said on their website at the weekend.

"It recognises that this can only happen with the consent of the FIA and the FOM (commercial rights holder), but has faith that the Formula One 'family' will make the correct decision in the end."

The FIA could, however, decide to limit the 2010 championship to 12 teams and open bids for next year.
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Hmmm

Also, anyone read the story of Lotus yesterday, six seconds slower in practice? Put that into context of a 70 pal race around brazil and they will be lapped....FIVE TIMES???????

And they signed Trulli and Kovalinen to take them to the top? Someone get my coat now!
 
People have truly been spoilt by the close times of todays F1 teams, why on earth are you surprised a brand new, from scratch team with only 5 months lead time can only get within 3/4+ seconds of the top teams?
This isn't a spec series, and these teams do not have unlimited money. You can't just come into the series and be competitive immediately - which is partly why we haven't had many new teams for a while.

What were you expecting? Lotus to beat Toro Rosso? To be challenging Force India or Williams?
We live in unique times, before in F1 it was very commonplace for most teams to be more than 2 seconds off the top runners - and some of those were established teams! Nowdays we had 10 teams who all had been in F1 for many years and had perfected their methods, to the point where last year it was close to only being 1 second between all 20 cars at times. This is not normal and its rediculous to expect the new teams to match that straight away out of the box in their first season.

I'm not surprised at all that the new teams are far off the pace, it was always going to happen because they are new - new meaning never run before.

I can't get my head around people critcising the new team's pace and not seeing the achievement that it is, so I can only assume such people have not been watching F1 very long or have never looked at an old qualifying session. 👎
 
Ardius is right on both accounts. First, I can only assume it is completely impossible to make a totally new entrance into F1 (new team, new structure, car developed from scratch, etc.) and not be a few seconds off the pace. Second, F1's heritage is one of "dare to build your own car and to race it against all others". So, many periods of its history were made with huge gaps between front runners and backmarkers. Teams like Osella, Minardi, Coloni, Hesketh, Toleman, Fittipaldi and so many others never truly successful were born mostly from their founders true passion and despite their relative lack of success they are an integral part of F1 history, a part F1 should be proud of.


Just as an example of how it was in the F1 of old, I picked the qualifying results of a GP that will never be forgotten. The French GP of 1979. Here:

http://ndtv.f1pulse.com/racecard/French_Grand_Prix_1979/3D3C3C/race_card_qualify.aspx
 
Ian Poole
And they signed Trulli and Kovalinen to take them to the top? Someone get my coat now!
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No, they didn't. They hired Kovy and Trulli to build a solid basis for the team to build upon in the upcoming year. The two best drivers up to this job, I might add.
 
I think this nationalist race team branding may have something to do with the failing/failed A1gp series.

As far as newer or slower teams; historically, they have always existed and have been constantly ridiculed. Over the last decade or so, these teams were pushed out partly because of costs and partly because of the bad press.

The whole qualifying routine, which has been constantly revised, was put in place originally to try and find a way of allowing the faster cars a clearer shot at pole. There used to be a 107% lap time rule for slower cars too.

The likes of Prost and Senna et al were always bemoaning the slower cars which allegedly held them up constantly during the qualifying and races. I think possibly this years biggest rumblings will revolve around the slower cars impeding or, as I like to think of it, spicing up the action. Saying that, last year I thought there would be a lot of front wing losses so, this is a bit tongue-in-cheek. :dopey:
 
Yes, there were some horrible teams in the past (a quick visit to F1 Rejects can prove that) but even what was considered good pace at the time in the 80s and 90s was nothing like today. Outfits like Sauber, Ligier and Jordan - all respectable race teams with decent budgets and good designers and engines were easily 2 seconds off the Williams, Benettons, Ferraris and McLarens.
I wasn't referring to the terrible teams back then - I was referring to the teams that eventually got somewhere and were respected.

Lets take an example:
1999 Australian Grand Prix Qualifying
1 1 Finland Mika Häkkinen McLaren-Mercedes 1:30.462
2 2 David Coulthard McLaren-Mercedes 1:30.946 +0.484
3 3 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:31.781 +1.319
4 16 Rubens Barrichello Stewart-Ford 1:32.148 +1.686
5 8 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Jordan-Mugen-Honda 1:32.276 +1.814
6 4 Eddie Irvine Ferrari 1:32.289 +1.827
7 9 Giancarlo Fisichella Benetton-Playlife 1:32.540 +2.078
8 6 Ralf Schumacher Williams-Supertec 1:32.691 +2.229
9 7 Damon Hill Jordan-Mugen-Honda 1:32.695 +2.233
10 10 Alexander Wurz Benetton-Playlife 1:32.789 +2.327
11 22 Jacques Villeneuve BAR-Supertec 1:32.888 +2.426
12 19 Jarno Trulli Prost-Peugeot 1:32.971 +2.509
13 17 Johnny Herbert Stewart-Ford 1:32.991 +2.529
14 12 Pedro Diniz Sauber-Petronas 1:33.374 +2.912
15 5 Alessandro Zanardi Williams-Supertec 1:33.549 +3.087
16 11 Jean Alesi Sauber-Petronas 1:33.910 +3.448
17 15 Toranosuke Takagi Arrows 1:34.182 +3.720
18 14 Pedro de la Rosa Arrows 1:34.244 +3.782
19 23 Ricardo Zonta BAR-Supertec 1:34.412 +3.950
20 18 Olivier Panis Prost-Peugeot 1:35.068 +4.606
21 20 Luca Badoer Minardi-Ford 1:35.316 +4.854
22 21 Marc Gené Minardi-Ford 1:37.013 +6.551
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That was back when everyone could do low fuel, proper qualification laps! Minardi were no newbies and were still 4-6 seconds off the pace. Compare this with the current teams that are considered "slowest" like Force India and Toro Rosso, its just amazing really.

As the rules have become tighter, its been easier for the teams to use common solutions and end up on a similar pace, but it doesn't mean a new team can jump in and instantly assume all that knowledge. Its not a "copy and paste" job like some people seem to believe.

I kind of want to agree that backmarkers do spice up the action too though, many of the "back in the day" classic races people usually refer to almost always feature a moment where the leading driver gets jumped by the chasing driver when they meet a backmarker - a classic move.
 
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It's interesting that you have picked this race as an example. It was the first race of that season which, is never particularly conclusive of performances generally. There were also a lot of incidents in the qualifying and I think Gene was technically a non-starter but successfully appealed to participate. This being the typical scenario of the old 1 hour/all cars on track qually sessions that usually lead to the complaints from the top drivers that I refer.

I definitely agree that the freezing of some rules, specifications and parameters will allow the slower/newer teams to bridge the gaps. This was a fundamental part of the FIA plans to encourage these independent teams back into the sport.
 
Ian Poole
How many people are going to be shocked with the following?



Hmmm

Also, anyone read the story of Lotus yesterday, six seconds slower in practice? Put that into context of a 70 pal race around brazil and they will be lapped....FIVE TIMES???????

And they signed Trulli and Kovalinen to take them to the top? Someone get my coat now!
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Except of course that the Interlagos lap is A LOT shorter, therefore giving less time difference
 
Fastas
It's interesting that you have picked this race as an example. It was the first race of that season which, is never particularly conclusive of performances generally. There were also a lot of incidents in the qualifying and I think Gene was technically a non-starter but successfully appealed to participate. This being the typical scenario of the old 1 hour/all cars on track qually sessions that usually lead to the complaints from the top drivers that I refer.

I definitely agree that the freezing of some rules, specifications and parameters will allow the slower/newer teams to bridge the gaps. This was a fundamental part of the FIA plans to encourage these independent teams back into the sport.
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I chose the first race, because its the same as Ian Poole deciding to analyse testing times, obviously at the end of the season the gap will be closer. Just as it will be this season.
The point is made though, the specific details are largely irrelevant when I'm only really arguing that a few seconds gap from a new team to establised teams is hardly "shocking" as Mr Poole put it.
 
Ardius
USF1 confirmed out of it now by the FIA:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/3/10484.html

And Stefan have not been given entry either.

All good in my opinion, hopefully Campos/HRT make it now, at least for Senna's sake.
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I was really excited about USF1. It would have given me a reason to actually pull for a single driver. F1 as a whole is interesting enough for me to watch without a real favorite driver, so I'll live.
 
I'd like to hear the story from other perspectives...seeing as people (such as supposed employees and Lopez's manager) have been blaming Anderson himself.
 
Ardius
Yeah, the nationalism thing is getting a bit much now, it was nice before to have a little bit of pride, like Ligier, Ferrari and Lotus...but to name your team after the countries and starting to design the whole team around it is instantly a no-no.
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Actually, I'm pretty sure Hispania is named after Jose Ramon Cabarante's company, Grupo Hispania. The company isn't actually named for the region, but rather for the people it represents - hispanic people. Grupo Hispania has interests in Spain and Portugal as well as Latin America, Mexico and South America.

Geography, but not geography. Clever, huh?
 
Well, it applies to his company too, he has every right to name the team what he wants. But its still unecessary to drag nationalism into it like that.
For now it will be pay drivers, but will it still be the same when the team has money to spend on drivers?
 
Ardius
Well, it applies to his company too, he has every right to name the team what he wants. But its still unecessary to drag nationalism into it like that.
For now it will be pay drivers, but will it still be the same when the team has money to spend on drivers?
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The suggestion has been that Kolles will use the team as a satellite of Volkswagen. It won't actually be a part of the VW Group, but Kolles and Cabarante will run it with the intention of getting experience and moving up the grid. Then, when new engine regulations come into effect in 2013, Volkswagen will buy the team and run it as a works outfit. It saves them the hassle of having to go through an entry selection process because it guarantees them a grid place. They'll be the first, last and only potential buyer after three years. However, I doubt VW will support them too much financially, but I've already heard talk that Kolles will use the old Opel DTM facility in the future. That's just speculation, of course.

I have no problem with nationalism in the sport when it comes to the teams (commentators are another matter entirely). If they want to name their team after their homeland because they're proud of their homeland, let them. And don't you agree that Hispania Racing F1 Team is better than Espana Racing F1 Team or even Iberia Racing F1 Team?
 
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And don't you agree that Hispania Racing F1 Team is better than Espana Racing F1 Team or even Iberia Racing F1 Team?
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I don't like any of them. I would find it ridiculous if any unlikely portuguese F1 Team in a distant future would call itself Lusitania Racing F1 Team (to use the roman word, as Carabante does with "Hispania"), Portugal Racing F1 Team or whatever else meaning the same (a country).
 
Hispania Racing Team has already uncovered their car in Murcia:

IMG_0590--647x350.jpg


IMG_0587--647x231.jpg


IMG_0586--647x231.jpg



I think it looks beautiful with that carbon-fiber-like color.
 
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I have no problem with nationalism in the sport when it comes to the teams (commentators are another matter entirely). If they want to name their team after their homeland because they're proud of their homeland, let them. And don't you agree that Hispania Racing F1 Team is better than Espana Racing F1 Team or even Iberia Racing F1 Team?
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No, none of them are good, like Hun said.
Its just appealing to the wrong side of supporting sports - why should people support particular teams or sportspersons by where they were born?

I think nationalism (or in this case, race or culture) is ok in the sense of having something to relate to, but it also has the side effect of encouraging favouritism based on something that has nothing to do with skill or personality.
I did say Carabante & Co were free to do as they wish (of course), but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I understand its come from his company and everything, but it doesn't make my point any less valid. If I named my F1 team "England F1" after my company "England", it doesn't negate the obvious effects of using such a name.

But anyway, nice car - seems the rumours about Senna losing his sponsors weren't completely true. Refreshing to have a grey car. Higher quality picture for you SN:
6st344.jpg


Supposedly this is the 3rd car, the main two cars are already on the way to Bahrain - no testing planned before hand. Senna and Chandhok confirmed, no test driver confirmed yet.
Dallara may have designed a fast car, but the reliability is certainly not going to be there at the first race.
 
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Excellent news that Campos - er menopause - er HRT have got a car out there - that is awesome news.

Glad that USF1 have finally called it a day instead of dragging it out - maybe seem them next year? - Shame Stefan didn't get in - but I think it's fair in the long run.

C.
 
Aww, just for me? :) I love you, man!

And you hit the nail in the head with the name thing.
 
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