2010 Singapore Grand Prix

[Anghammarad]

I think it is foolish of Webber to think that:

1. He will be able to defend the position from where he is relative to Hamilton

2. That Hamilton would be aware that Webber had not conceded the position.

From the video it is clear to me that the pass was made (with about a meter or so) and the only outcome that Webber could count on in this situation is contact between the two cars

 

[Antti-san]

Watch between 0'22 and 0'24 (can't pin it down better than that). There is an instant where Hamilton's rear is clear, laterally, of Webber's front.

I watched that part, but when they are braking they are side-by-side going in to the corner, with Webber on the inside. I think that Hamilton should have anticipated that Webber wasn't going to give up and taken a more conservative line instead of risking collision. At least that's the way I see it. But like I said, I don't blame either of them.

 

[Famine]

Hamilton brakes normally for the corner. Webber brakes late - on old tyres - and gains about a half a car length.

Yes but because he's on the outside he can never be considered 'in front of Webber'.

The outside? Where the normal racing line for entry to that corner is?

Not only is he physically ahead of Webber, he has track position too. As I said to Dotini, had no pass occurred prior to that, we'd all now be talking about Webber steaming up the inside of a corner with no hope of stopping the car and taking another driver out. Again.

 

[Anes]

Hamilton was on the outside because Webber was defending the position on the inside. If Webber was on the inside, than where else could Hamilton be but the outside? The preffered racing line is irrelevant as they were side by side more or less in the braking zone. As Hamilton was performing the overtake and was on the outside, then the onus is on him to make sure he was sufficiently clear of Webber before he turned in - which he wasn't

 

[Famine]

Hamilton was on the outside because Webber was defending the position on the inside.

Hamilton was on the outside because he'd just passed Webber that side.

If Webber was on the inside, than where else could Hamilton be but the outside?

Wrong question. Hamilton was on the outside, so where else could Webber have been?

Bearing in mind he only brought himself back alongside Hamilton by trying to outbrake him, the answer is "anywhere".

The preffered racing line is irrelevant as they were side by side more or less in the braking zone.

They were side-by-side more or less in the braking zone, but Hamilton was ahead and clear before it.

As Hamilton was performing the overtake and was on the outside, then the onus is on him to make sure he was sufficiently clear of Webber before he turned in - which he wasn't

The overtake had already been performed. He was ahead and clear. Webber then tried to take the place back in the braking zone off line - the onus is on him to make sure he doesn't cause an avoidable accident by steaming up the inside trying to outbrake on old tyres.

Though it's still a racing incident.

 

[Anes]

I'm just going to agree to disagree





































Still Hammo's fault tho

 

[daan]

Wrong question. Hamilton was on the outside, so where else could Webber have been?

Bearing in mind he only brought himself back alongside Hamilton by trying to outbrake him, the answer is "anywhere".

If the positions had been reversed, Hamilton would have done exactly the same as what Webber did, by trying to slide back up the inside. Hamilton should therefore have expected Webber to be there and ran slightly wider into the corner, giving Webber racing room, and Hamilton would still have had the best line into the next corner.

But still racing incident, no one to blame.

 

[Sureboss]

Can we all just agree that the track is crap for racing and overtaking and use that as the excuse?

 

[Antti-san]

Can we all just agree that the track is crap for racing and overtaking and use that as the excuse?

You'll get no objections from me!

 

[Famine]

If the positions had been reversed, Hamilton would have done exactly the same as what Webber did, by trying to slide back up the inside. Hamilton should therefore have expected Webber to be there and ran slightly wider into the corner, giving Webber racing room, and Hamilton would still have had the best line into the next corner.

But still racing incident, no one to blame.

Indeed he would. In fact, to quote a rotund and slightly-pate-exposed acquaintance of mine:

He went for a hard move that may have worked against most drivers on track. If you want to play hardball, Webber, Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton & Alonso are probably the guys you want to avoid. If yours is one of those names, it will end in tears for someone.

 

[Pupik]

^ After the on-track Kobayashi/Schumacher incident, I'd put another driver into that category.

 

[Seismica]

Don't forget Kubica. Although Kubica actually drives aggressively without knocking other drivers off the track. (I'm not referring to Singapore here, just in general)

 

[livemusic]

 

[astrosdude91]

That should be Felipe with the pacifier, since he's a baby.

 

[The Outlaw]

The picture wouldn't make any sense in that case. Vettel is RB's baby anyway

It would have been cool if the artist put Alonso on a pranching horse though.

 

[Ranko_SD]

It's far from the first time that Webber does stupid things like this, remember Australian GP?

You're not a good driver when you need to punch someone out to gain a position.
RBR drivers did some ugly things this year, uglier than anyone else, and the bad side of that is that the other drivers suffer from that.

 

[astrosdude91]

^That was only because Webber was cut off by Hamilton who failed to get around Alonso. And this latest incident was only that, an incident. No one is at fault.

 

[Ardius]

It's far from the first time that Webber does stupid things like this, remember Australian GP?

You're not a good driver when you need to punch someone out to gain a position.
RBR drivers did some ugly things this year, uglier than anyone else, and the bad side of that is that the other drivers suffer from that.

Webber has a lot of incidents, he's an aggressive driver.

But in that second circumstance, he wasn't trying to overtake there, he simply didn't pay attention to what was going on in front of him and outbraked himself into Hamilton after Hamilton's failed attempt to pass Alonso (and hence Hamilton's slower corner speed).

Red Bull certainly seem to have the poorest drivers in terms of racecraft though, barring Schumacher of course .

 

[Anes]

I'd put Schumacher in the top group for racecraft in the last 20 years.





He's easily the best of the current field.

 

[niky]

Was the best. His current season leaves much to be desired (though he's doing okay for an old man coming back fom retirement).

 

[astrosdude91]

If this was Schumacher of 10 years ago, then maybe he would be the best. But not anymore. Although, that would be really cool to see how a 30 year old Schumacher would stack up against the current competition. One could only dream!

 

[Anes]

Was the best. His current season leaves much to be desired (though he's doing okay for an old man coming back fom retirement).

The car is a piece of crap and the series is much different to what he raced. Next year with a decent car I suspect Schumacher will be right there.

 

[niky]

The car is a piece of crap and the series is much different to what he raced. Next year with a decent car I suspect Schumacher will be right there.

It's an easy excuse to make... but the facts are... Nico Rosberg is outracing him. Both in qualifying and during the race. I'd felt somewhere mid-season that he'd finally gotten used to the formula and the new car... as he had a few qualifying sessions wherein he outpaced Rosberg (on some of the more familiar tracks), but he's not getting any better as the season goes along (Singapore, in particular, was horrible).

The Mercedes isn't a great car, but it's arguably the best of the rest, otherwise Rosberg wouldn't be sitting 7th in the points, just behind the top three teams.

I do believe it's unrealistic to expect Schumacher to shine this season... he's come back from a long lay-away and is competing against younger and fitter drivers... but even if he adapts next season, there's no reason to believe he'll be in the hunt for the championship then... not even if he is plunked down into the seat of next year's Ferrari.

 

[Peter]

People keep saying Schumacher is doing badly, all just because Rosberg is beating him. Rosberg is beating him, that's all I hear, constantly. It's not like he's having trouble driving the car, gets tired easily, erratic driving all the time, constant mistakes, or anything liek that. It's just "Rosberg is beating him".Reason for Schumacher being behind Rosberg is because of the car not suiting Schumi''s driving style, and it fitting Rosberg's style better. Why else would Michael want Mercedes to scrap this car's development and focus on next year, but Rosberg wanting them to hold on 2011 and keep working on the 2010 car? Rosberg likes it, and is good in it, Schumi ain't. I'm sure that next year, when Schumacher's got a better car for himself, he'll do better. Better than Rosberg? We'll see.

 

[Anes]

Just remember, it was Schumacher and Ross Brawn who took a team like the current Force India and completely transformed them into the modern Ferrari team who won 6 (?) WDC's. Before those two arrived, Ferrari was mid pack at best. I would be very surprised if Schumi and Ross weren't trying to do the same with Mercedes. So sit tight for next year

 

[niky]

There's no doubt that the 2010 formula doesn't suit Schumacher. But you must bear in mind... the 2010 car is worlds different from the 2009 car... add the no refueling rule and the different tire compounds, and everyone has had to do some adjusting.

If you want the most damning analysis possible of why Michael is underperforming:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9037790.stm

Splitting the season into the first seven races and the second eight, Schumacher qualified an average of 0.136secs adrift of Rosberg in the first 'half', 0.359secs in the latter 'half'.

^that just about sums up how he's improving as the season progresses. And he should... whether or not the car suits him. Because:

...in the past Schumacher has adapted brilliantly to understeering cars. He used to adapt his style corner by corner, lap by lap, to whatever was appropriate.

He was quite brilliant, for example, in how he could adopt a very aggressive style on his first lap out of the pits to get the tyres quickly up to temperature, then adopt a totally different style as the rubber came up to its correct working range.

There are several drivers who've had to adapt to new cars and new situations in the past few seasons and in this season. Alonso had trouble at first with the McLaren, then went on to match and nearly beat Hamilton. Now he's in Ferrari and he's driving the pants off of Massa. Button has had trouble getting to grips with the McLaren, but there are times when he is close in pace to Hamilton, and he's growing into the car.

Schumacher, on the other hand, got better with the long wheelbase car, then Nico adapted to it and started beating the pants off him, again. It's Schumacher's lack of adaptability and flexibility, also seen in how his pace deteriorates as the car's balance changes over race distance, that is the most troubling.

The driving style was a mere expression of a level of feel and balance - a miraculous combination of inner ear sensitivity to lateral accelerations and the co-ordination of that with his limbs - that was on a different level to anyone else's.

His 2010 performances have revealed that sensitivity is dulled now and that his adaptability is not what it was.

There's no argument that Schumacher is one of the all-time greats. But we're talking about Schumacher 2010, not Schumacher 1993, and whether he still has the ability to be a front-runner. The answer seems to be: No, he doesn't.

I suspect he might do better next year, but I don't expect him to be faster than Rosberg.

 

[Seismica]

It has to be said, these young whipper-snappers are putting Schumi in his place.

I think he'll do marginally better next year with a better car, but I can't see him challenging for a title again, even if he had a car like this year's Red Bull.

 

[The Outlaw]

I'm of the opinion that if MB can supply him with a car that he feels VERY comfortable driving and the new Pirreli's suit his driving style, then he can still compete at the highest level of the sport (or pretty damn close) - but this remains to be seen, and who knows how next years car/tires will work for him. Atm his biggest issue is consistency and being able to deliver when it counts (mainly due to the characteristics of the car and tires that are giving him such problems). I think he still has brutal speed in hand, but ONLY if the car is 100% cooperating with him (as he doesn't seem as adaptable as he used to be - or maybe the 2010 car and regulation just would have never worked for him period...who knows).

Here's a pretty interesting article that was posted on PlanetF1 a day or two ago:

Mercedes team principal Ross Brawn has confirmed that Michael Schumacher will race with the team next season.

After an under-whelming return to Formula One, there has been much speculation that Schumacher would retire once more at the conclusion of the current season, an assertion that Brawn has rubbished.

"It is definitely not true," Brawn told the official Formula One website.

"What sense would it make at that stage of his comeback to pack in his job? He's not going to do it - be sure of that!"

Schumacher has been consistently outshone by his team-mate, Nico Rosberg, and Brawn admits that if a driver without the reputation of Schumacher had delivered the same performances they may not have retained their seat.

"To be honest, probably not," said Brawn.

"But because we know Michael, we know that there is still a lot to come because Michael is in many fields more talented than others - in driving and in the cooperation with the team. The team are very happy with the way Michael is contributing.

"If he were a rookie we surely would have asked ourselves if he has the capacity to advance. With Michael we know that he has."

Brawn believes the gap between Rosberg - who has achieved three podium finishes to his team-mates zero - and Schumacher is largely due to the way in which the drivers have coped with the new tyre regulations.

"Michael's driving style depends on a strong front tyre that can withstand his hard braking and the steering manoeuvres that he prefers. Nico has simply understood better how to handle these front tyres," explained the Briton.

"I have to say that this year's front tyre is very uncommon. That stems from the fact that the FIA wanted to promote KERS and had asked Bridgestone to develop tyres that would fit a certain weight distribution and thus create a specific tyre characteristic."

Despite his less than ideal performances, Brawn does not believe that the seven-time World Champion has lost any of the skill that made him a great of the sport.

"If you take the telemetry data in fast corners or his reaction time when the car breaks away, I don't see any difference," said Brawn.

"There he's still the old Michael. But in the slow corners he cannot make full use of the tyres as Nico can. Nico has put the bar very high in this respect. But I guess that's okay for Michael as he clearly sees where he has to improve.

"I predict that in 2011 we will again see the true Michael - when we've delivered him a better car," added the 55-year-old.

 

[Anes]

I tend to rubbish whatever the BBC have to say. The patriotism and supreme bias with Hamilton makes me want to punch babies and I reckon they're still butthurt about Adelaide and Hill.

On the fail to adapt part, Schumacher was the best at in/out laps for pit stops by a long margin. If being the best at going from a light car with old tyres to a heavy car with new tyres isn't adaptability I don't know what is. Also the same guy who would change his diff settings multiple times in a lap to suit specific corners to get the best lap time when the track conditions changed mid race.

 

[niky]

I tend to rubbish whatever the BBC have to say. The patriotism and supreme bias with Hamilton makes me want to punch babies and I reckon they're still butthurt about Adelaide and Hill.

Mark Hughes isn't the BBC. He's one guy. One guy who knows a hell of a lot more about F1 than most people here. I suggest you actually read the entire article before screaming "bias" about it. Mark heaps no small amount of praise on Michael's incredible driving ability of yesteryear.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9037790.stm

In his Ferrari years, to see his first lap out of the pits through a corner such as Spa's Pouhon was to witness awe-inspiring genius that left you barely comprehending how what you had just seen could be possible.

He would commit totally to the blind exit, flat-in-top downhill entry corner, a down-change just after turning in and the car would be shuddering on the edge of adhesion, visibly faster than anything else - and Schumacher would make not a single further input because to do so would have sent the car off.

He would sit on this delicate knife-edge until the car was fully loaded up and pointed directly at the apex and then simply power his way out.

To be able to sit immediately on this incredibly narrow balancing point was a skill beyond the reach of his rivals.

If that was a "rubbish" article, then apparently, Schumacher's driving is, too...

On the fail to adapt part, Schumacher was the best at in/out laps for pit stops by a long margin. If being the best at going from a light car with old tyres to a heavy car with new tyres isn't adaptability I don't know what is. Also the same guy who would change his diff settings multiple times in a lap to suit specific corners to get the best lap time when the track conditions changed mid race.

Again... Schumacher of 1993 (okay... 1994) is obviously not the same driver as Schumacher of 2010. The big question is... will the Schumacher of 2011 be closer to Schumacher 1994 or Schumacher 2010?