2010 Singapore Grand Prix

[hornet_burnout]

Weber Hamilton incident was just that.

Weber was in a better position to avoid it by letting Hamilton go by easy. But he didn't and has a right to do so. He does not come from far behind to crash into Hamilton. He tried to hold the inside, but was too far inside for Hamilton to see him in the mirror (his own words) and leave room. He didn't because he didn't see him, and they touched.

There is simply no "blame" to any of them IMO.

If you see Kubica and his fabulous overtake on the outside on the same spot, you can see that a bit more space makes a whole lot of difference. If Hamilton had seen Webber, he would have allowed that more room, as that would not harm his overtake. Not in that corner.

Something strange was going on between the Saubers and Schumacher.

Great race /recovery from Kubica!

 

[albteman015]

Nico and Adrian handed 20 sec. penalties for cutting track on lap 1.

from F1.com
Williams’ Nico Hulkenberg has had 20s added to his Singapore race time for leaving the track and gaining an advantage on lap one. It follows an identical penalty for Force India’s Adrian Sutil.

After receiving Sutil’s penalty, which dropped him from eighth to tenth in the results, Force India protested, claiming that Hulkenberg had committed the same offence.

After hearing evidence from Hulkenberg and Force India’s Vitantonio Liuzzi, the stewards agreed and also penalised the German, dropping him to tenth place. He originally crossed the line in ninth.

Sutil now moves up to ninth, having originally fallen to tenth following his penalty. Ferrari's Felipe Massa, who was tenth at the flag, moves up to eighth.

 

[The Outlaw]

Nico and Adrian handed 20 sec. penalties for cutting track on lap 1.

from F1.com
Williams’ Nico Hulkenberg has had 20s added to his Singapore race time for leaving the track and gaining an advantage on lap one. It follows an identical penalty for Force India’s Adrian Sutil.

After receiving Sutil’s penalty, which dropped him from eighth to tenth in the results, Force India protested, claiming that Hulkenberg had committed the same offence.

After hearing evidence from Hulkenberg and Force India’s Vitantonio Liuzzi, the stewards agreed and also penalised the German, dropping him to tenth place. He originally crossed the line in ninth.

Sutil now moves up to ninth, having originally fallen to tenth following his penalty. Ferrari's Felipe Massa, who was tenth at the flag, moves up to eighth.

Good thing Force India protested and the Hulk got penalized, otherwise that would have been 3 races in a row where he had gotten away with either gaining a position (Spa), cutting the chicane to defend a position (Monza), and this latest incident at Singapore

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I guess Hamilton didn't watch BBC's interview with Webber.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Good thing Force India protested and the Hulk got penalized, otherwise that would have been 3 races in a row where he had gotten away with either gaining a position (Spa), cutting the chicane to defend a position (Monza), and this latest incident at Singapore

Yeah, I think Hulkenberg has been very disappointing. He might have the speed, but his brain seems to switch off from time to time. Like in Canada when he tried a move on Sutil (or Rosberg; it was never quite clear who) that everyone except Hulkenberg could see was not going to work and ended up destroying his front wing - and then getting a penalty for speeding in pit lane when he came in to replace it. He's spent most of the year finishing in a lower position than the one he started in, too.

 

[Terronium-12]

I guess Hamilton didn't watch BBC's interview with Webber.

?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

?

Webber: ...There's a massive difference between world champion and second.

Jake: And with the prize so great you're happy to be ruthless maybe a little bit selfish to make sure that it comes your way?

Webber: *pause* phhhhhhhhhhhhh...I'll say yes



Though he was talking about getting the team behind him and how getting their support can make the difference in the championship. I'm sure his attitude versus other teams is similar.

 

[Anes]

It is adventurous to overtake on the outside
It is silly to overtake on the outside in an open wheeler
It is crazy to overtake on the outside in an open wheeler on a 90 degree bend
It is ludicrous to overtake on the outside in an open wheeler on a 90 degree bend on a street course.


Hamilton's fault.

I feel I need to quote this. It seems we have a lot of armchair sports fans here - overtaking around the outside is generally a no no unless you want to get touched up. There is a reason why 99% of passes are down the inside..

 

[Radracing]

Webber: ...There's a massive difference between world champion and second.

Jake: And with the prize so great you're happy to be ruthless maybe a little bit selfish to make sure that it comes your way?

Webber: *pause* phhhhhhhhhhhhh...I'll say yes



Though he was talking about getting the team behind him and how getting their support can make the difference in the championship. I'm sure his attitude versus other teams is similar.

I think they were both being ruthless and Webber came out the winner. Hamilton might have tried pulling the move Massa did in Italy when Hamilton did exactly the same thing Webber did and Hamilton ended up breaking the right front steering of his car he figure maybe it would work with Webber but it turned out the other way around. Maybe Maclaren should start making their supension more robust if they want to play with the big boys that way.

There is a reason why 99% of passes are down the inside..

Hamilton tried that in the last race with Massa and didn't work so I guess he wanted to see if it would work on the outside. "Kidding" No, really thou that was where the opening was and he took it. But knowing Webber's agressive style I would have just moved as much to the right to give him all the space he needed and if he still hit him (Hamilton) that would be a good reason for the race stewards to give Webber the stop and go penalty.

 

[Ardius]

Firstly - Hamilton/Webber - racing incident. Webber was half-a-car-length alongside in the latter stages of the braking zone and turn in, so had the right to keep going. He could have backed out but didn't.
Hamilton had the right to close the inside but hadn't realised Webber was still there. He could have left more room but didn't.
I would tend to blame Hamilton more than Webber, but considering the low visibility mirrors and the great braking from Webber, I won't.

Great drive naturally for Alonso and Vettel, very intense battle indeed!

Another disaster race for Schumacher, deary me. What the hell was he doing ramming Heidfeld off the road? The Hamilton/Webber incident didn't deserve a penalty, but that one did! Schumacher effectively punted Heidfeld into the wall! I've said it many times, I say it again, what a waste of a decent seat.

Kubica doing what Kobayashi did at Valenica and proving you can overtake with the right tools at any track . Awesome stuff.

Also noteworthy mention to Glock for doing a nice job making his own train and keeping them behind for so long! And also to Kovalainen for being a great fire marshall!

Webber's comments about Kobayashi were amusing too.

Oh, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amazing luck Webber had to finish the race with that front right tyre almost off the rim!

I feel I need to quote this. It seems we have a lot of armchair sports fans here - overtaking around the outside is generally a no no unless you want to get touched up. There is a reason why 99% of passes are down the inside..

Overtaking on the outside is fine, its just more difficult. Hence its more impressive when someone (Kubica this time) pulls it off. I wouldn't say its a no no, just the hard way round.
Sometimes the outside line is better, such as in wet conditions or to gain the inside for following corner, if its a sequence.

Its difficult to really apply a generic rule when there are so many variables in racing.

 

[Antti-san]

Oh, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amazing luck Webber had to finish the race with that front right tyre almost off the rim!

Yeah, I just read about it!

I think they were both being ruthless and Webber came out the winner. Hamilton might have tried pulling the move Massa did in Italy when Hamilton did exactly the same thing Webber did and Hamilton ended up breaking the right front steering of his car he figure maybe it would work with Webber but it turned out the other way around. Maybe Maclaren should start making their supension more robust if they want to play with the big boys that way.

I don't think you can really compare those two situations. Neither Massa nor Webber plowed into Hamilton, Hamilton simply tried too hard in both cases IMO.

 

[The Outlaw]

Oh, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amazing luck Webber had to finish the race with that front right tyre almost off the rim!

Actually, I had already mentioned it:

Webber sure is a lucky dog to have made it home in 3rd with his tire basically hanging onto the rim somehow That bit of luck and good fortune could very well win him the Championship in the end.

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Overtaking on the outside is fine, its just more difficult. Hence its more impressive when someone (Kubica this time) pulls it off. I wouldn't say its a no no, just the hard way round.

It also leaves you vulnerable to being pushed off the track (unfairly IMO) like Kubica did to Alonso at Silverstone Kubica was well aware Alonso was there and could have adjusted his line, but instead tried to force the issue by squeezing Alonso off track so that Alonso would either lose his advantage into the next corner or would be forced to concede position after going off track. Of course Alonso chose neither option though

 

[Seismica]

Just watched it... the Webber-Hamilton collision stands out as nothing more than a racing incident. This is before i've seen any interviews. I've seen the onboards for both and I see no fault from either driver. Perhaps Hamilton could have went wider but from where he was sitting he had already made the pass.

It was not Webber's fault and i'm glad he wasn't given a penalty. Shame for Hamilton though, I would've liked it if he could have continued, he would have put up more of a fight with Webber than Button did until the end.

 

[Anes]

Button put me to sleep as usual last night.

 

[Ardius]

It also leaves you vulnerable to being pushed off the track (unfairly IMO) like Kubica did to Alonso at Silverstone Kubica was well aware Alonso was there and could have adjusted his line, but instead tried to force the issue by squeezing Alonso off track so that Alonso would either lose his advantage into the next corner or would be forced to concede position after going off track. Of course Alonso chose neither option though

Depends on the corner, if you took the wide line at a high speed corner, an accident is more likely with barging like that, so you aren't likely to be pushed wide onto the grass except by a maniac. Like for example turn 7 of the Hungaroring, where Alonso passed Schumacher around the outside in 2006. Schumacher would never have dared edging Alonso towards the grass there because it would have been the end of his race too and a nasty end to Alonso's.
Low speed stuff is the only time you can get away with closing the door to outside attacks, as the other driver has a chance to take the option of braking rather than running off the track. I don't think its that unfair.

Like I say, very circumstantial, sometimes the outside line possible, sometimes it isn't.

 

[Anes]

Depends on the corner, if you took the wide line at a high speed corner, an accident is more likely with barging like that, so you aren't likely to be pushed wide onto the grass except by a maniac. Like for example turn 7 of the Hungaroring, where Alonso passed Schumacher around the outside in 2006. Schumacher would never have dared edging Alonso towards the grass there because it would have been the end of his race too and a nasty end to Alonso's.
Low speed stuff is the only time you can get away with closing the door to outside attacks, as the other driver has a chance to take the option of braking rather than running off the track. I don't think its that unfair.

Like I say, very circumstantial, sometimes the outside line possible, sometimes it isn't.

Which is why I said passing on the outside on a 90 degree bend on a street track is ludicrous. As if Webber was going to let it happen. Anyway, those titanium sparks from Schumi's front wing looked amazing.

 

[Antti-san]

Regarding Silverstone, the way I see it Kubica was on the inside (like Webber), so he had every right to hold on to his position (like Webber). Alonso was looking for an overtaking opportunity that wasn't there.

 

[Ardius]

Which is why I said passing on the outside on a 90 degree bend on a street track is ludicrous. As if Webber was going to let it happen. Anyway, those titanium sparks from Schumi's front wing looked amazing.

It wasn't ludicrous though, as Kubica later proved.

And those sparks were probably the only amazing part of Schumacher's performance today.

 

[The Outlaw]

Which is why I said passing on the outside on a 90 degree bend on a street track is ludicrous. As if Webber was going to let it happen. Anyway, those titanium sparks from Schumi's front wing looked amazing.

Well, Kubica proved otherwise at the same exact corner with a very nicely exucted pass - albeit a relatively easy one considering he was on fresh rubber and in a superior car.

AFAIC, if there is an opening to overtake and the other driver is aware of your intentions (not diving down the inside from a mile back), a oppurtunity to overtake is an oppurtunity to overtake, regardless if you have the racing line or not.

 

[Anes]

Well, Kubica proved otherwise at the same exact corner with a very nicely exucted pass - albeit a relatively easy one considering he was on fresh rubber and in a superior car.

>Implying Sutil didn't brake early to concede the position.

 

[The Outlaw]

Regarding Silverstone, the way I see it Kubica was on the inside (like Webber), so he had every right to hold on to his position (like Webber). Alonso was looking for an overtaking opportunity that wasn't there..

Of course the oppurtunity isn't there when you drive like you own the entire racetrack (in Kubica's case @ Silverstone) and don't respect the cars space next to you (when you are fully aware they are right next to you). But this is Formula 1 and I completely accept a bit of ruthless/unfair driving like that. That incident would have looked completely different had there been a guardrail there and not a run off area though.

>Implying Sutil didn't brake early to concede the position.

They were side-by-side through the apex (Sutil even hopped the curb to hug the inside as much as possible)...I doubht Sutil decided to concede position that late in the sequence.

 

[Antti-san]

Of course the oppurtunity isn't there when you drive like you own the entire racetrack (in Kubica's case @ Silverstone). But this is Formula 1 and I completely accept a bit of ruthless/unfair driving like that. That incident would have looked completely different had there been a guardrail there and not a run off area though.

So you admit that Alonso had no realistic chance of overtaking Kubica at that turn? I don't see why Kubica should have yielded when he was obviously in the advantageous position.

At this rate we'll soon be debating the Prost/Senna incident of '89!

 

[Ardius]

Of course the oppurtunity isn't there when you drive like you own the entire racetrack (in Kubica's case @ Silverstone) and don't respect the cars space next to you (when you are fully aware they are right next to you). But this is Formula 1 and I completely accept a bit of ruthless/unfair driving like that. That incident would have looked completely different had there been a guardrail there and not a run off area though.

That kind of move is accepted in all forms of motorsport I've ever watched, in that situation, the driver on the inside can take the line he likes. You can watch Le Mans and they will do the same - the driver on the inside nearly always dictates the line within reason. At low speed, I think its acceptable to run people wide as they have plenty of opportunity to back out and attempt a different line and it isn't dangerous.
If there was a wall there, Alonso wouldn't have even attempted that move, he attempted it because he knew he could run wide if Kubica forced the issue.

I thought we settled this back in the Silverstone thread?

 

[Terronium-12]

At this rate we'll soon be debating the Prost/Senna incident of '89!

I was going to mention that earlier.

 

[The Outlaw]

So you admit that Alonso had no realistic chance of overtaking Kubica at that turn? .

Yes, no realistic chance when the other driver doesn't respect your space on the track. But as I said before, this is Formula 1 afterall, so such driving is to be expected unless you're racing someone who is far too respectful of their opponents space and shouldn't be racing in F1 to begin with (generosity and kindness don't get you far in F1 or in the top level of motorsports either ) Personally I don't have much of a problem with such driving to begin with, although we could possibly see a bit better/more fair wheel to wheel racing if it weren't for such situations like that. Personally I like a bit of ruthlessness/selfishness at the end of the day, as it makes things much more exciting/dramatic IMO, as we've seen many times this year (Schumacher & Barichello kamikaze squeeze, Webber & Vettel accident, Alonso snaking by Massa at the pit entry, etc.)

I don't see why Kubica should have yielded when he was obviously in the advantageous position.

Well IMO, you could argue that Alonso had already stolen that part (the exit) of the racing line/track before Kubica had even gotten there, so I'm of the opinion that you could argue the advantage either way. The way I saw it was that Alonso had the racing line prior corner entry and was slightly ahead (half car), and then Kubica stole the racing line from Alonso at the apex. Alonso then reclaimed the racing line from Kubica at the exit (as what happens with a lot of overtakes) as he (Alonso) managed to carry more speed through the corner despite taking the longer way around. Now if Alonso was even a half car back (as Kubica began to squeeze him over) it would have been stupid for him to stick his nose up the outside, but he wasn't a half car back, he was wheel to wheel with Kubica as Kubica began squeezing him off that portion of the racing line forcing him to take the run off area to avoid contact from a forceful Kubica. Because of this Kubica didn't have to yield position at the next corner where he knew he would have clearly been at a disadvantage. That's my 2 cents on the matter though - So I'll drop any further discussion to avoid getting popcorn thrown at us by the lurkers

That kind of move is accepted in all forms of motorsport I've ever watched, in that situation, the driver on the inside can take the line he likes. You can watch Le Mans and they will do the same - the driver on the inside nearly always dictates the line within reason. At low speed, I think its acceptable to run people wide as they have plenty of opportunity to back out and attempt a different line and it isn't dangerous.
If there was a wall there, Alonso wouldn't have even attempted that move, he attempted it because he knew he could run wide if Kubica forced the issue.

I thought we settled this back in the Silverstone thread?

Well I don't really know how one knows (unless he knows before hand that the driver next to him could give 2 chits to the fact that he is there) to back out of such a situation when he is on the racing line, slightly ahead of the other driving as they approach corner entry while being side by side through the ENTIRE corner. In my opinion it takes two to tango in nearly all fair overtaking situations...I personally don't think Kubica did much tango'ing in that case, more like pushing and shoving of his dance partner But hey, that's what it takes sometimes.

 

[Antti-san]

That's a lot of text, so forgive me if I don't quote you directly. Kubica had no reason to give up his position because he had the advantage; he was on the racing line and on the inside. Kubica didn't shove or push Alonso nor did he have any reason to because realistically Alonso was never in contention to make that overtake by being on the outside and running out of space on his own.

Oh, and I like popcorn!

 

[The Outlaw]

Well I think we've both repeated our side of the argument twice already, so at this point we can only agree to disagree before going any further without any purpose

 

[Antti-san]

Hehe, no hard feelings - I like a good debate once in a while!

 

[Anes]

I shouldn't generalise, but timeattack07gt, your opinion is what I'd expect from an American culture filled with NASCAR. Nowhere in circuit racing do you need to be fair to the guy on the outside. Who passed that Virgin and forced him wide? Hulkenberg? It's the same deal.

 

[The Outlaw]

Hehe, no hard feelings - I like a good debate once in a while!

Same here 👍

I shouldn't generalise, but timeattack07gt, your opinion is what I'd expect from an American culture filled with NASCAR. Nowhere in circuit racing do you need to be fair to the guy on the outside. Who passed that Virgin and forced him wide? Hulkenberg? It's the same deal.

And that comment was really neccesary wasn't it? Actually I hate NASCAR with a passion, but if you want to generalize me as being a NASCAR loving American who knows nothing about circuit racing (but would gladly take you up on a circuit race in real life or in virtual reality), so be it. Never did I say you HAVE to be fair to the guy on the outside. Going back, I simply stated that taking the outside leaves you vulnerable to being pushed off the track at the exit (it's legal, but unfair IMO - it's the easy, rather lame way for the driver on the inside to maintain position in front of you), particularly on tracks with run off areas.

Yeah, I think Hulkenberg has been very disappointing. He might have the speed, but his brain seems to switch off from time to time. Like in Canada when he tried a move on Sutil (or Rosberg; it was never quite clear who) that everyone except Hulkenberg could see was not going to work and ended up destroying his front wing - and then getting a penalty for speeding in pit lane when he came in to replace it. He's spent most of the year finishing in a lower position than the one he started in, too.

Yea, I've been seeing this to. It's probably just his nerves getting to him from time to time now that he is in the mix with the big boys.