2011 Formula 1 Grand Prix of Europe

[TenEightyOne]

And in turn, under the previous scoring scheme (10-6-4-3-2-1), Schumacher would be again ahead under countback (4pt each, Schumacher one 4th to none)...

As you say, it is what it is. I'm not saying that one system is better than the other although I like the fact that P2 now scores relatively badly compared to the old scheme.

I was just pointing out that under the previous scheme Schumacher would be a point behind Rosberg, as it is he's level with him and ahead on countback.

The previous system awarded 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 rather than the older 10-6-4-3-2-1 scheme that you referenced.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I was alluding to the fact that under the old scoring system Rosberg would be ahead of Schumacher.

History isn't going to look back on the 2011 season and say "Well, under the old points system, Nico Rosberg would have been ahead of Michael Schumacher" because the old points system is like the microphone at a Britney Spears concert - it just doesn't matter.

 

[TenEightyOne]

History isn't going to look back on the 2011 season and say "Well, under the old points system, Nico Rosberg would have been ahead of Michael Schumacher" because the old points system is like the microphone at a Britney Spears concert - it just doesn't matter.

Many people who love F1 love the statistical side of it, I think the sub-discussion is about that. History will look back on points systems and the way that outcomes may have been changed (or not changed) in the same way that it will look back on all statistics.

I know that you think I'm "utterly stupid" (I just saw yesterday's post from you in that regard) but in this case I simply think that your area of interest in F1 differs from mine.

The statistical fact is the statistical fact, it's important to some people but not to others. That doesn't mean that Rosberg or Schumacher are morally in the right or in the wrong - as Famine pointed out it is what it is. This is just a discussion.

 

[Famine]

As you say, it is what it is. I'm not saying that one system is better than the other although I like the fact that P2 now scores relatively badly compared to the old scheme.

I was just pointing out that under the previous scheme Schumacher would be a point behind Rosberg, as it is he's level with him and ahead on countback.

The previous system awarded 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 rather than the older 10-6-4-3-2-1 scheme that you referenced.

Hence "And in turn, under the previous system" - the system preceding the previous system you referenced. Just for clarity:

2010 -
25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1; all races
9 Schumacher - 26pt
10 Rosberg - 26pt; position determined by countback

2003 - 2009
10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1; all races
8 Heidfeld - 10pt
9 Rosberg - 10pt; position determined by countback
10 Schumacher - 9pt

1991 - 2002
10-6-4-2-1; all races
7 Heidfeld - 4pt
8 Schumacher - 4pt; position determined by countback
9 Rosberg - 4pt; position determined by countback
10 Massa - 4pt; position determined by countback
(also Hamilton up to 3rd by 1pt)

1981 - 1990
9-6-4-2-1; all races*
7 Heidfeld - 4pt
8 Schumacher - 4pt; position determined by countback
9 Rosberg - 4pt; position determined by countback
10 Massa - 4pt; position determined by countback
(also Hamilton up to 3rd on countback)

1980
9-6-4-2-1; best 5 results from first seven races**
7 Heidfeld - 4pt
8 Schumacher - 4pt; position determined by countback
9 Rosberg - 4pt; position determined by countback
10 Massa - 4pt; position determined by countback
(also Hamilton up to 3rd by 5pt)


In all points scoring systems except 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1, Schumacher is ahead of Rosberg - so it's not that Schumacher would benefit from the new system, but that Rosberg would benefit from the most recently obsolete one only.

Not that it's relevant, since they're measured by the present system under which Rosberg beat Schumacher last year.

*Best 11 races, 1985-1990, included as results would not change at present
**The season was 14 races long; Seasons were typically divided into near-enough halves, with "n" races from each half counting, so a present-day equivalent would be 8 races from 10; We've not had 8 races yet, so this part is even more fictional than the rest of it, but you get the gist of what happens when we ignore races like they used to...

 

[TenEightyOne]

Blimey, you've been busy

As you say; it's pretty much irrelevant in the current season, I just enjoy the statistical analysis... this is especially true when trying to compare driver performances from years gone by.

I enjoyed that

 

[Hollidog]

Im pretty excited for the return of GP2 and GP3 this weekend. Going to be interesting to see the developing rivalry between the I-Sport drivers.

 

[TenEightyOne]

No sign of the fog... looking per-forecast right now (picture by Jake Humphrey).

Forecast in OP now updated too, it's looking like a hot, dry race.

 

[dhandeh]

All these numbers! Reminds if a recent explosion at a pie factory, reports say that 3.14 people were hurt. (feel free to out do each in reciting pi to a million decimal places).

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Forecast in OP now updated too, it's looking like a hot, dry race.

If any race needs rain, it's this one.

 

[C-ZETA]

Reminds if a recent explosion at a pie factory, reports say that 3.14 people were hurt.

Good one

I expect Vettel to win as usual. Because that's all he does. At least we'll get good fighting behind him! Vettel should stay back all the time because he's always missing out on the fun

 

[Peter.]

Meanwhile, Mercedes are bringing a brand new diffuser and exhaust system to Valencia. Have a look:

 

[stig's helmet]

Don't let me down Shumy. I want a podium from you sonny!

 

[Peter.]

And that is looking quite possible. Some might argue that Schumi did what he did in Montreal from luck, but he was going very quickly. In an inferior car, fighting off Webber, Button, lost to both, but put up a fight and never faded off into the distance afterward. He ended the race less than a second behind Webber. Looks like Mercedes will see a turn around in their championship at last.

 

[Sureboss]

He'll be requiring one of the Top 5 to er, tuck it up. The Mercedes is improving, but on out and out pace, it's still the 4th best car on the grid.

 

[Terronium-12]

And that is looking quite possible. Some might argue that Schumi did what he did in Montreal from luck, but he was going very quickly. In an inferior car, fighting off Webber, Button, lost to both, but put up a fight and never faded off into the distance afterward. He ended the race less than a second behind Webber. Looks like Mercedes will see a turn around in their championship at last.

I've said this in the appropriate thread but I'll repeat it here as well: the only reason I feel Schumey couldn't hold on to 2nd or even 3rd place was because of a lame technicality - DRS. He had absolutely no chance of holding on to second as he wasn't getting anywhere near that 'within one second' of Vettel, which means of course he couldn't properly defend against Mark and the RB-Rocket Ship, and things just fell off even further from there.

Had DRS not been as much of drawback I have no reason to doubt he could have (perhaps) held off both Button and Webber and secured second if not definitely third.

He'll be requiring one of the Top 5 to er, tuck it up. The Mercedes is improving, but on out and out pace, it's still the 4th best car on the grid.

It does have one of, if not the strongest KERS systems on the grid, paired with DRS and whatever other improvements made in lieu of the blown diffuser being banned...we won't know until Saturday just how good it's pace is now. Likely hasn't become a force to be reckoned with but there's the slight possibility they're at least on par with Ferrari.

 

[Ardius]

It does have one of, if not the strongest KERS systems on the grid, paired with DRS and whatever other improvements made in lieu of the blown diffuser being banned...we won't know until Saturday just how good it's pace is now. Likely hasn't become a force to be reckoned with but there's the slight possibility they're at least on par with Ferrari.

The blown diffuser isn't banned. The throttle maps that allow the teams to blow hot gases when the driver isn't pressing the throttle pedal are going to be restricted from Silverstone (off-throttle engine maps).
This weekend, all that has changed is that the teams can't run different engine maps from qualifying to the race.

And both rule changes are going to affect Mercedes too.

 

[Alex p.]

I've said this in the appropriate thread but I'll repeat it here as well: the only reason I feel Schumey couldn't hold on to 2nd or even 3rd place was because of a lame technicality - DRS. He had absolutely no chance of holding on to second as he wasn't getting anywhere near that 'within one second' of Vettel, which means of course he couldn't properly defend against Mark and the RB-Rocket Ship, and things just fell off even further from there.

I agree man, I agree. DRS does make it more interesting, but it falsifies the results.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

And that is looking quite possible. Some might argue that Schumi did what he did in Montreal from luck, but he was going very quickly. In an inferior car, fighting off Webber, Button, lost to both, but put up a fight and never faded off into the distance afterward. He ended the race less than a second behind Webber. Looks like Mercedes will see a turn around in their championship at last.

I think Schumacher benefited in Montreal from his experience in the rain. Making a prediction based on a wet race seems a bit premature.

 

[Terronium-12]

The blown diffuser isn't banned. The throttle maps that allow the teams to blow hot gases when the driver isn't pressing the throttle pedal are going to be restricted from Silverstone (off-throttle engine maps).
This weekend, all that has changed is that the teams can't run different engine maps from qualifying to the race.

And both rule changes are going to affect Mercedes too.

Ah. I misread something then.

 

[Peter.]

It does have one of, if not the strongest KERS systems on the grid, paired with DRS and whatever other improvements made in lieu of the blown diffuser being banned...we won't know until Saturday just how good it's pace is now. Likely hasn't become a force to be reckoned with but there's the slight possibility they're at least on par with Ferrari.

Mercedes have the best DRS system on the grid. While other teams are gaining say 12-14kph from their DRS, Mercedes gains up to 20kph from theirs, which is a huge advantage. Shame he couldn't get close to Vettel, he'd have sailed past on the straight. About them beating Ferrari, we have the soft and medium tyres at this race, which should benefit Ferrari a bit, but it's possible in qualifying. Race however, the Ferrari always somehow finds itself some impressive pace that puts it up there with McLaren and Red Bull.

 

[MarkWebber]

I'm hoping for a Mark Webber miracle this race, he's had half a season to warm up to the new Pirelli tires, now it's time to make a move.

 

[The Outlaw]

It certainly would be nice to see Mark giving Seb a harder time (like he was last year), but atm it just seems like Seb is out of reach, given his superb form and Webber's general incompetence this year (I've found it quite amazing how dramatically things have changed since last year, where they were relatively quite even on raw pace. But IMO, that's where we have seen the separation between a good driver and a great one).

Mark still needs to to find a way to get the most out of the car and tires in qualifying, and without question needs to do something about the slug like starts he seems to have race after race. The new ECU regulations (regarding the reduction of off throttle exhaust flow) for Silverstone might play to Mark's favor (how much I don't know), as last year Mark was able to give Seb quite a hard time, up until RB started getting more aggressive with the EBD design and particularly the ECU mapping off throttle. (Mark was supposedly quite good at keeping the car balanced mid corner without all the fancy off throttle mappings). It should be interesting to see if the new reg. changes help Mark's case against Vettel 👍

 

[MercilessOne]

Fingers crossed for Schumi here. Bring back that magic.

 

[Terronium-12]

Mercedes have the best DRS system on the grid. While other teams are gaining say 12-14kph from their DRS, Mercedes gains up to 20kph from theirs, which is a huge advantage. Shame he couldn't get close to Vettel, he'd have sailed past on the straight. About them beating Ferrari, we have the soft and medium tyres at this race, which should benefit Ferrari a bit, but it's possible in qualifying. Race however, the Ferrari always somehow finds itself some impressive pace that puts it up there with McLaren and Red Bull.

I wonder, what would go through any of our minds had we been in the position Schumacher was in? Would I, we, feel cheated? I doubt he does as it's just the rules.

It certainly would be nice to see Mark giving Seb a harder time (like he was last year), but atm it just seems like Seb is out of reach, given his superb form and Webber's general incompetence this year (I've found it quite amazing how dramatically things have changed since last year, where they were relatively quite even on raw pace. But IMO, that's where we have seen the separation between a good driver and a great one).

Mark still needs to to find a way to get the most out of the car and tires in qualifying, and without question needs to do something about the slug like starts he seems to have race after race. The new ECU regulations (regarding the reduction of off throttle exhaust flow) for Silverstone might play to Mark's favor (how much I don't know), as last year Mark was able to give Seb quite a hard time, up until RB started getting more aggressive with the EBD design and particularly the ECU mapping off throttle. (Mark was supposedly quite good at keeping the car balanced mid corner without all the fancy off throttle mappings). It should be interesting to see if the new reg. changes help Mark's case against Vettel 👍

During an interview with BBC at Monaco, Mark said something to the effect of himself, Button, Hamilton, etc. are all performing as good if not better than they were last season, it's Vettel who's made such a colossal leap in performance. He still has it in him as displayed at Catalunya to outpace Vettel (even though Vettel's KERS wasn't functioning) but the precedent is still there. Going by his logic, being a WDC motivates you to dig deeper and just drive on edge all the time.

Perfect example: look at Button. Look how hard (yet smooth) he was driving in Canada. He was on the attack nonstop, and once Vettel faltered, he pounced and ran away with it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Vettel interestingly slow in practice using the race map, but he could just be doing race runs of course.

Force India are running Hulkenberg in Di Resta's car, and Hulkenberg's crashed it. Back snapped out, Hulkenberg corrected but ran out of space to recover the slide. Not hurt but the car looks a bit sad.

EDIT: Vettel claws up to 15th, I've just watched two laps and it looked like hard work, especially the back end sliding and smoking on the corner entrances. Again, I can't rule out that he's doing heavy fuel runs... but his car doesn't look like that in races (on the race map) so you have to think that something's very wrong in the setup. I'm sure it'll be fixed for FP2.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Glock catches kerb at chicane, half-spins and stalls on track. Only 2 mins to go so RC allow the session to end under yellow.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Anyone else hoping that the gap between Webber and Vettel is a result of running different engine maps?...

Webber made 0.5s in the last sector which has all of the fastest turns around Valencia. No problem with the Red Bull aero then! Does boost the confidence somewhat if Vettel's race runs looked sloppy!

 

[TenEightyOne]

Anyone else hoping that the gap between Webber and Vettel is a result of running different engine maps?...

Probably - but Webber's got the same restrictions in engine mapping (as have all the drivers).

It's hard to see that Vettel's performance would have dropped so far when relatively compared to the other drivers. I'd like to think that this is a sign of RB losing their dominance... but then you look at Webber's time and think that Vettel either had a problem in the car, a setup error or a brimmed tank.

There's also the RB showman option - maybe they've decided to run Vettel slow until quali when he'll take pole by 1.2s

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Probably - but Webber's got the same restrictions in engine mapping (as have all the drivers).

The current rules allow them to change the mapping still, but not between qualifying and race. I was hoping that Vettel wasn't tanked with fuel, but just running the race mapping compared to Webber on the qualifying mapping. Very far-fetched hope, I think its purely as Vettel was on longer race runs instead, possibly with a different engine map as well but not entirely responsible for the time delta.

Guess FP2 will reveal more, probably including Vettel's real pace.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The current rules allow them to change the mapping still, but not between qualifying and race.

I'll check that out; but Formula1.com (the sport's homepage) just published this;

Mark Webber struck a blow against the hopes of rivals that the revised engine mapping rules might hurt Red Bull this weekend by setting the fastest time in Friday morning's opening practice session by 0.824s.

EDIT: It seems that access to the ECU is banned in any Parc Ferme condition - so it's to be expected that the teams will be practising with their quali/race maps during the FP sessions. I wasn't implying that RB (or any other team) can't tweak their maps during FPs, it's just a fairly pointless exercise if you're running something radically different to your quali/race map when you're setting up for a particular event.