2011 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix

[hornet_burnout]

Hi HBurnout, I wouldn't be too critical on Seb over this, truth is that these guys do it almost every race, he learned with the older ones.

About Button I agree entirely he is in his prime, but maybe calling him "... one of the most complete, intelligent, consistent and overall excellent racing drivers ever ... " is a bit too much

The fact is, and this relates to what I say in both previous paragraphs ... none of these guys can compare to the older generations when ONE mistake (or ONE mechanical failure, if you drove a Lotus) could be your last. They all do too many mistakes, they all have too many offs, they all have too many contact with other cars.

Granted, I think Button and Alonso can compare to guys like Stewart, Lauda or Prost. Rarely a wheel in the wrong place during entire weekends, almost during a full season. With pace above and beyond what's expected.

But guys like Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel, 40 years ago, would either be banned from racing or killed in their rookie year.

PS - Of course, 40 years ago, they wouldn't drive like they do now. The question is ... would they be skilled enough to be champions AND survive?

Hi mate!

I didn't want to come down on Vettel's move since it was not that bad (mainly because Button backed off), but to point out he is going the wrong direction. He is not (yet) one of the bad guys, but he should be more mature, at least from now on. And "others do it too" and "they started it" are boyish excuses

Now seriously, most of these guys don't behave with the care and respect for each other they should. Maldonado's swipe on Hamilton should have seen him banned. Hamilton in the other hand, keeps getting into too much trouble. And gets penalties for almost everything, things others get away with. Which does not help the sport. Nor having drivers as Safety Marshals who crash an Audi at LeMans on a overly aggressive 2 car overtake at the beginning of the race, and 2 weeks (+/-) later in Monaco punish Hamilton (twice if I recall correctly) for being a lot less reckless. There's a lot of work to be done here...

As for Button, I really think he is now a complete racing driver, and his moves (albeit too discrete for some to notice - I mean the media, not you) are the gutsiest I've seen in the last years of F1. As is Alonso. They are the likes of Lauda and Stewart as you said, and that places them right there on the top. Right under the #1 spot. Which is the best thing any of the current F1 drivers can do, as they are not or will ever be "God-like".

They almost all think they're the next Senna and guess what? If they were, it would have shown by now.

The sooner they convince themselves of it, the better for them, and for the sport.

 

[FoxqiosGT]

Good race. At Suzuka is always interesting. Button showed an excellent race. Probably now Vettel will drive more aggressively and hard, it will be interesting to see the ending of the season
Thanks to Sebastian for the free Red Bull X1

 

[homeforsummer]

You should read what happened in the press conference!

They get a lot less diplomatic after the first few questions have been answered! "Bloody Germans!"

As for the comments about drivers like Vettel, Hamilton and Schumacher if they'd raced 40 years ago, I agree - each has got into enough incidents with other drivers that by the law of averages they'd have been killed back in the 60s or 70s, but then that's not the world we live in now and each can get away with driving a bit more aggressively. Not saying it's a good thing or even good to watch, but you can never really compare then and now. And each is undoubtedly a very, very good driver.

That said, it's also a reason I feel more comfortable supporting a genuinely clean driver like Button over Hamilton, Vettel or Schuey because however nail-biting it is to see an incredibly risky manoeuvre, I do find it preferable watching drivers who respect each other's space and safety and still racing cleanly side-by-side. There are faster drivers but I still don't think there's a better racer on the grid at the moment than Button.

With regards to the Japanese race I was on a plane so didn't catch it, but congrats to Vettel for the title and to Button for the race win on what most consider a Red Bull track.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

They almost all think they're the next Senna and guess what? If they were, it would have shown by now.

I think Vettel's already proved to be on a par with Senna, Alonso is a great too as is Button becoming now, those who thought he was a mediocre driver with Hamilton (who thinks he is the new Senna) great are having to eat their words now.

 

[homeforsummer]

I think Vettel's already proved to be on a par with Senna, Alonso is a great too as is Button becoming now, those who thought he was a mediocre driver with Hamilton (who thinks he is the new Senna) great are having to eat their words now.

I wouldn't say any of the above are "the new Senna" just yet, even Vettel. Two championships, dominant or not, does not a legend make.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I wouldn't say any of the above are "the new Senna" just yet, even Vettel. Two championships, dominant or not, does not a legend make.

I suppose a driver can only really be classed as a legend once their career is over and you can see their legacies to the sport, Vettel is well on his way though...

 

[Bigbazz]

Schumacher is a Legend, and his career is not over!

 

[RodrigoDLL]

I didn't want to come down on Vettel's move since it was not that bad (mainly because Button backed off), but to point out he is going the wrong direction. He is not (yet) one of the bad guys, but he should be more mature, at least from now on. And "others do it too" and "they started it" are boyish excuses

I can only imagine that if Button had not backed off, they would obviously have crashed, potentialy ending the race for both of them and the championship as well. It would not be a beautiful way for Vettel to close his title, as it would have shadowed his great campaign while bringing back memories of bad Schumacher and Senna/Prost moments. So this was all Vettels to lose, not title, but reputation wise.

 

[livemusic]

Schumacher is a Legend, and his career is not over!

Yeah it is.

 

[Hun200kmh]

... over?

 

[homeforsummer]

I suppose a driver can only really be classed as a legend once their career is over and you can see their legacies to the sport, Vettel is well on his way though...

Vettel absolutely has a chance of being up there with Schumacher, Senna et al but he needs to go a long way to demonstrate the depth of talent that people like Senna, Prost, Mansell and Schumacher, or even Gilles Villeneuve, Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark etc have displayed, amongst others.

I know the hardcore Vettel fans hate it when people say something like this, but he's still yet to prove to me that he can really, really race in that style we all yearn to watch - wheel to wheel for laps on end - something that Senna or Mansell was born for.

On outright pace - absolutely. In that car there's nobody out there who can really match him. But unless Red Bull makes an enormous balls-up of its car in the next few seasons, we're going to have a Schumacher in Ferrari scenario where Vettel clears off into the distance on every race. Which is bloody impressive, but a bit tedious.

I suppose at least this year there's been some great racing behind Vettel, which is more than could be said for the Schumacher years. Even if Vettel wins a bunch more championships, I'll be happy enough as long as people like Alonso/Button/Webber continue their fantastic wheel-to-wheel battling.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Great racing throughout the grid; well done Jenson 👍

 

[comu]

What is the music being played at the end of the bbc f1 forum interview with Vettel called?? does anyone know?

 

[GM]

Yeah it is.

I wouldn't be surprised if Schumacher beats Rosberg this season, only 3 points behind. Since Germany Schumacher has got 32 points compared to Rosberg's 23. At this point last season, Rosberg had 122 points and Schumacer just 54

 

[Akmuq]

What a brilliant race, between that and the last 20 laps of bathurst, made getting up at 6 so worth it.

Brilliant driver from Button and he deserved the win, Vettel with a solid drive, those are what make a champion, like Hungary this season, which I think was his best race even though he didn't win it and lost a couple of places.

Lotus had both their drivers on the lead lap come the end of the race, I'm pretty sure that's the first time they have even got one on to the lead lap. They could have a few points next year.

 

[hornet_burnout]

The best battles I've seen this year included Button, Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, but Vettel not.

He is probably the fastest as I've said, on raw speed. But "racing" one on one, not.

And I agree, if Button hadn't backed off he "could" have been champion the wrong way joining Shummy and Prost.

And no. No one is as supernatural as Senna was IMO. Not even "lightning fast on his own" Vettel.

 

[homeforsummer]

Brilliant driver from Button and he deserved the win, Vettel with a solid drive, those are what make a champion, like Hungary this season, which I think was his best race even though he didn't win it and lost a couple of places.

That's an unusual one to pick. I thought Vettel drove a very average race at Hungary, and made a good few mistakes too. Vettel's better races this season have been ones like Monza where he really had to work for it, and Valencia where he just outpaced everyone all weekend.

 

[Greycap]

And no. No one is as supernatural as Senna was IMO. Not even "lightning fast on his own" Vettel.

For this I have a very good quote from another thread.

Another thing is that people are so obsessed with history they can't accept that there could possibly be a 24 year old better than Senna.

That's about as close to the truth as it gets.

Everyone remembers Senna's brilliant Monaco race in the rain with the pretty much useless Toleman and uses it as a proof of his unrivalled skills but who considers the Monza race by Vettel in the Toro Rosso to be of similar calibre? Nobody, despite the cars being not that different in competitiveness when compared to the rest of the field. It's just not politically correct or fashionable to note that there's been someone with a similar achievement.

Senna was also known for doing just about anything to win, the now legendary crashes with Prost being good examples of this. For some reason it was apparently a great thing to see someone fight with such passion but when Vettel didn't give Button room in the start of this year's Suzuka he was being an idiot in the eyes of most people. The main difference between those situations is that Vettel didn't actually intentionally take both cars out of the race.

Vettel has a reputation of only winning his championships because of the great Red Bull cars. Yeah, because the McLaren driven by Senna in '88 was such a steaming pile of 🤬 that it was only good for 15 victories out of 16 and the '90 version was worse yet with a really miserable 11 victories out of 16.

 

[Hun200kmh]

What crashes are you talking about? I know about Suzuka 1990.

Oh, and there's no comparison possible between Senna at Monaco 84 and Vettel at Monza 2008. Tons of reasomns really but I'll go with these alone:

1 - Comparably, the STR was far closer to the other cars than the Toleman was.

2 - Vettel got out from pole, did a lonely race and won it. At a wet Monza. A sprint from start to finish, "overtakes" only under blue flag rules. Not taking anything away from the kid, but ...

3 - ... Senna came from far back, overtook several cars and was gaining SECONDS per lap on Prost. At a wet Monaco. Oh, and no blue flag rules back then.


If you want to compare, you might perhaps compare Vettel/Monza/2008 with Bellof/Monaco/1984.

He too was gaining on Prost, and he was even gaining on Senna, eventually got to 3rd place. But there's one difference explaining why the amazing performance of Bellof was overshadowed by Senna's, one that old Formula 1 followers know and understand. Senna's car was a Turbo, Hart engine, the worse and most primitive of the Turbo engines, particularly brutal. Bellof had to his advantage that he was driving a good old 3.0 L DFV, much smoother and suited for extreme wet conditions.

But I don't know, even here I'd have to rate Bellof over Vettel. It's the overtaking part that does it.

I know it is always hard to draw comparisons, and I'm by no means saying that Vettel can not become a peer to Senna. But Monza 2008 and Monaco '84 just don't compare.

 

[Akmuq]

That's an unusual one to pick. I thought Vettel drove a very average race at Hungary, and made a good few mistakes too. Vettel's better races this season have been ones like Monza where he really had to work for it, and Valencia where he just outpaced everyone all weekend.

But Vettel wasn't in the fastest car for Hungary, he made a brilliant lap for pole and he hung in there with Hamilton and Button, without getting too over-aggressive. Beating Button would always be very tough as he's a 200 MPH weatherman so it was kind of like Hamilton's lap at the Nurburgring for second place on the grid, not the best out there, but the best he could do.

 

[Bigbazz]

Vettel has already achieved 2 World Championships at the age of just 24, to doubt his skill and amazing talent is silly, is he as great as Senna? Well how can anybody know, you're comparing a legend of the sport who's career and life has ended with a young dominant talent in the early days of his career. Based on what Vettel has achieved so far, he could end his career this year and still be remembered as one of the fastest drivers ever. He hasnt shown his hand as a complete racer yet, but he certaintly has the speed and the skills to win two world titles aswel as being one of the best qualifiers.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Vettel has already achieved 2 World Championships at the age of just 24, to doubt his skill and amazing talent is silly, is he as great as Senna? Well how can anybody know, you're comparing a legend of the sport who's career and life has ended with a young dominant talent in the early days of his career. Based on what Vettel has achieved so far, he could end his career this year and still be remembered as one of the fastest drivers ever. He hasnt shown his hand as a complete racer yet, but he certaintly has the speed and the skills to win two world titles aswel as being one of the best qualifiers.

I agree. Vettel is one of the fastest drivers I've seen. And he succeeds by being so. From qualifying to leading from start to finish. Which is as much as anyone could demand from a driver, and must be recognized.

But Senna's "underdog" racing achievements with a crappy car, coming from miles behind to win or almost (as he would have if Ballestre hadn't stopped that Monaco race) have yet to be matched. That is the Senna mith, and maybe it's not even possible in the present. We are living very different times. Cars, tracks, tires and safety rules...

Edit:
I mean, at that time overtaking was actually very possible. Without KERS and DRS.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Senna was also known for doing just about anything to win, the now legendary crashes with Prost being good examples of this. For some reason it was apparently a great thing to see someone fight with such passion but when Vettel didn't give Button room in the start of this year's Suzuka he was being an idiot in the eyes of most people. The main difference between those situations is that Vettel didn't actually intentionally take both cars out of the race.

Vettel has a reputation of only winning his championships because of the great Red Bull cars. Yeah, because the McLaren driven by Senna in '88 was such a steaming pile of 🤬 that it was only good for 15 victories out of 16 and the '90 version was worse yet with a really miserable 11 victories out of 16.

+1. 👍

 

[Peter.]

You heard it here first though, Vettel will not break Schumacher's championship record. Schumi managed to do that in a time where rule changes were scarce, rule changes that, because they didn't happen, Ferrari, with their superior designers and resources never missed a beat. There are far more restrictions on how much a team can spend now, as well as the fact that the FIA has to be changing the rules so much nowadays, which puts everyone back to square one.

Plus, Red Bull's dominance will only last as long as Adrian Newey is within the team. Unless they could find an appropriate replacement, they would slowly decline, something aching to Williams after Newey left. With a multi-billion dollar company behind the team though, they wouldn't have the money trouble Williams has now though, but if things get worse enough, the team will become a liability to the company, and they will sell.

Will their dominance continue into 2012? I can't predict the future, but with Ferrari quitting very early to work on their 2012 car, we may very well see them take the 2012 championship by storm. McLaren also gave up early to sort themselves out, such was the dominance of Red Bull. However, this doesn't at all count Red Bull out. Being so much further ahead, they could have abandoned the RB7 development program early as well, to focus on the RB8, so as to retain their dominance. However, the RB7 was built around the exhaust blown diffuser, and with that being banned next year, I believe, they may be thrown into the fire and their hopes of continuing their dominance may already have gone up in smoke.

 

[IceMan PJN]

Plus, Red Bull's dominance will only last as long as Adrian Newey is within the team.

Will their dominance continue into 2012? I can't predict the future, but with Ferrari quitting very early to work on their 2012 car, we may very well see them take the 2012 championship by storm.

I don't know when Red Bull will drop off a bit relative to the other top teams, but sooner or later they will, and perhaps even with Newey. Lots of teams have enjoyed their time as the guys to beat, and it's never lasted indefinitely for any of them. Now is Red Bull's time to shine, but it's just a matter of time before their car is outshined by Ferrari, McLaren, or perhaps one of the other guys who are presently a bit farther down. I don't expect Red Bull to suddenly find themselves with the second or third-best car as early as 2012, but it really just takes one of their competitors to have a moment of brilliance to suddenly surge ahead with the better car.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Red Bull's dominance will only last as long as Adrian Newey is within the team.

I'm willing to bet that, when Newey decides that it is time to retire, he'll scour the talent pool and find someone to be his successor.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

I don't know when Red Bull will drop off a bit relative to the other top teams, but sooner or later they will, and perhaps even with Newey. Lots of teams have enjoyed their time as the guys to beat, and it's never lasted indefinitely for any of them. Now is Red Bull's time to shine, but it's just a matter of time before their car is outshined by Ferrari, McLaren, or perhaps one of the other guys who are presently a bit farther down. I don't expect Red Bull to suddenly find themselves with the second or third-best car as early as 2012, but it really just takes one of their competitors to have a moment of brilliance to suddenly surge ahead with the better car.

Agreed, but I'd argue that the Webber/Vettel disparity suggests that Vettel is flattering the car much more than the car is flattering Vettel. My suspicion is that technology- and design-wise there's really not that much to choose from between the RB7 and the McLaren chassis. Ferrari, on the other hand, clearly missed the boat. Jury is still out on whether they understand why. We'll know by this time next year. It wouldn't take a huge leap for them to get Alonso back into the hunt.

 

[astrosdude91]

For this I have a very good quote from another thread.

That's about as close to the truth as it gets.

Everyone remembers Senna's brilliant Monaco race in the rain with the pretty much useless Toleman and uses it as a proof of his unrivalled skills but who considers the Monza race by Vettel in the Toro Rosso to be of similar calibre? Nobody, despite the cars being not that different in competitiveness when compared to the rest of the field. It's just not politically correct or fashionable to note that there's been someone with a similar achievement.

Senna was also known for doing just about anything to win, the now legendary crashes with Prost being good examples of this. For some reason it was apparently a great thing to see someone fight with such passion but when Vettel didn't give Button room in the start of this year's Suzuka he was being an idiot in the eyes of most people. The main difference between those situations is that Vettel didn't actually intentionally take both cars out of the race.

Vettel has a reputation of only winning his championships because of the great Red Bull cars. Yeah, because the McLaren driven by Senna in '88 was such a steaming pile of 🤬 that it was only good for 15 victories out of 16 and the '90 version was worse yet with a really miserable 11 victories out of 16.

 

[homeforsummer]

Edit:
I mean, at that time overtaking was actually very possible. Without KERS and DRS.

I think you're simplifying things a bit. The cars were easier to run closer together but don't think that made the actual process of overtaking any easier. Not least because the cars of 20 and 30 years ago were considered vastly more difficult to drive than today's.

Which is something many forget - go further back in Grand Prix history and the more difficult, dangerous and physical the cars become. Have a look at any old GP vid on youtube to see how hard the guys are working! Not to mention the cars were far less reliable back then - even a World Champion could have several retirements in a season (in 85 - a video I have in my collection - Prost had 3 retirements from 16 races and one disqualification. Title rival Alboreto retired 6 times in 16 races, including the last 4 Grand Prix in a row!)

And @Greycap - you make a good point, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

Yes, Senna was fairly dominant in those two McLaren seasons, but he also drove incredibly in the Toleman you mentioned and the Lotus, and indeed in the seasons where the McLaren wasn't as competitive.

I'm lucky to be old enough that I remember two or three seasons in which Senna competed before his death and he was a joy to watch. Donington 93 stands out from the later seasons.

I'm certainly not denying Vettel's skill but until he's been in F1 for a lot longer and ideally proving himself in a sub-par car (one victory in the STR isn't enough to judge - especially in exceptional circumstances mixing up qualifying, as happened at that weekend) or with a stronger team mate (much as I like Webber, he's no match for Vettel) he can't yet be compared to the "greats".

Alonso was the youngest double champ at one point and I don't remember hearing him mentioned in the same breath as Senna. Why his two championships are any less valuable as a measure of greatness than Vettel's I'm not sure.

Of course, if you consider Alonso up there with Senna then I'm happy to retract everything I said, as clearly it's all down to statistics.

Oh, and: Vettel Celebrates Title Win

 

[Hollidog]

I'm certainly not denying Vettel's skill but until he's been in F1 for a lot longer and ideally proving himself in a sub-par car (one victory in the STR isn't enough to judge - especially in exceptional circumstances mixing up qualifying, as happened at that weekend) or with a stronger team mate (much as I like Webber, he's no match for Vettel) he can't yet be compared to the "greats".

I think you're forgetting that in that season he also had a couple of stellar drives that had him in the top six six times as well as three more top tens. In a Toro Rosso, that is an extremely good effort if you ask me. In Monaco of 08 he came from 17th to finish 5th and in Brazil he nearly spoiled Hamiltons title hopes before they both got past Glock. All of this is particularly impressive when you consider that his team mate, four time ChampCar champion Sebastien Bourdais only came in the top ten once and scored only four points.