2012 Japanese Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by PeterJB, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

    Messages:
    9,371
    Location:
    United States
    Sad day for Alonso. He says it doesn't change much, but Vettel has it in the bag. I guess the natural order of F1 is restored. Ferrari came out with a crappy car and it's just not good enough. Though it's also sad how McLaren threw it away. 2013 could be another walk over for Vettel. I can't wait for 2014.

    Brilliant job by Felipe and Kamu! :cheers:
    Another mishap by Romain Gherkin :tdown:
     
  2. ITCC_Andrew

    ITCC_Andrew (Banned)

    Messages:
    18,532
    Location:
    Canada
    Haha, I've got a joke, or, three;


    -Grosjean
    -Karthikeyan
    -Maldonado


    All three are equally ridiculous and funny. None of them fit in.
     
  3. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

    Messages:
    2,740
    Location:
    Portugal
    Couldn't agree more... Webber was a bit "in the way" and could have been hit by any of the 2 drivers behind him. Still, it's Romains job to avoid it.

    Both incidents from behind, Hamiltons POV:



    Webber is starting to sound a lot like Stoner.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  4. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

    Messages:
    7,628
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I wouldn't put Narain in quite the same league of destructiveness as the other two. He's been hit twice by other people in one race, and he can still just about keep up with the others. He out-qualified DLR in Monza and Singapore, and had to run an old-spec chassis floor here, and he still managed to keep ahead of Pic and DLR for a fair art of it. He just keeps getting all the mechanical problems.
     
  5. Shinshiki

    Shinshiki

    Messages:
    1,101
    Location:
    United States
    It's that and the HRT team in general.They just aren't as financially sound as other teams, partly because they are new. Compare the front wings on the HRTs to big teams like McLaren, Red Bull, and Ferrari. You'll see what I mean.
     
  6. avens

    avens

    Messages:
    2,012
    I had a kobayashi avatar before it was cool
     
  7. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,427
    Yes. Me. Whether Vettel fanboys are like it or not, that's how it comes across to me.

    It's not necessarily a bad characteristic. If anything, it's fairly natural for someone in his position - and like Alonso and Schumacher, both of whom were incredibly arrogant in their early successful years, Vettel will probably grow out of it. But in the meantime, it's not particularly endearing. It's not just a slight on Vettel either - Hamilton is equally guilty of it.

    I'll admit that he doesn't come across that way when laughing and joking with the BBC or Sky presenters either, but then even Schumacher was fairly good-humoured when chatting with the press.

    Two incidents in several years of racing! Holy crap! I take it all back!

    And yes, before anyone flips out, I'm being sarcastic. I'm aware he's made more passes than that, and his outright speed is undoubtedly impressive. But he's just not that entertaining a racer to watch, and certainly not when he clears off for an entire grand prix.

    Again, that's not to downplay his talent (he's a bloody quick driver), but you'd have to be on some pretty serious Vettel Kool-Aid to suggest that he's one of the more exciting drivers to watch out there.

    I'd be tempted to say that anyone thrilled to watch any driver effectively doing an unchallenged time-trial of a circuit is probably more a fan of the driver than they are of the sport itself. A bit like lusting after David Beckham's thighs rather than appreciating his contribution to an exciting game of football.

    ---​

    As an aside, I do wonder what it is about Vettel supporters that makes them so vehemently opposed to criticism of him in any way.

    I don't remember it being like that for any other driver as I've been growing up with F1, regardless of the talent of the driver in question. My best guesses are that it's something to do with the psyche of the younger generation of F1 supporters, or perhaps a trend towards an increasingly partisan breed of supporters for whom a celebrity-like following outweighs their ability to step back and appreciate the sport from a more balanced perspective.

    Agreed. Ultimately Grosjean's responsibility not to run into people, but Webber certainly played a part.
     
  8. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    If if if if if if if. Have you ever heard of Juan Manuel Fangio? He won five world championships with four different teams. Part of his success was down to being in the right place at the right time. Juan was smart enough to know where to go next. In other words, he looked at all the teams and tried to figure out who was going to have the best car. The reason I'm bringing this up is because more often than not, the championship is won by the driver in the best car. Exceptions to this rule are rare. However, this year, there really hasn't been a "best car". (Alonso's) Ferrari looked really strong at one point. As have Mclaren. Red Bull are strong at the moment. No one has had an "easy ride". Hell, there are people on this forum who have argued that Sauber, Lotus and even Williams have the best car. None of us really know who does. Not even the teams know. This has been an unpredictable season. Everyone has had their share of bad luck and days where the car just would not work for them, yet with five races to go, two men are out in front. This is due to the men behind the wheels.

    Put Vettel down all you want, the simple fact is that he is a driver who makes the most of his opportunities. That's why he is where he is and Webber is where he is. Same goes for Alonso V Massa.

    You see arrogance. I don't. Listen to his interviews. He isn't an arrogant person. He doesn't have a massive management team. He doesn't have a yacht. He doesn't parade a supermodel girlfriend in front of a camera. He's a humble guy. For all you know, "the finger" could have originated when he was a little boy in karting and stuck.

    Did you miss the part where I admitted I was wrong about this? Honest to god, I don't know how one guy can respond to a comment about "Vettel making the championship boring" with "it isn't Vettel's fault Alonso spun off" and still end up getting misquoted and taken out of context.

    Because it grows tiring to see a large group of people constantly putting him down. Whether he takes pole position, wins a race, wins a championship, misses the top 10 in qualifying or forgets to tie his shoe laces, there will always be a bunch of people whining about it. Just take a look back at Ghskilla's comment about how "Vettel made the championship boring". So basically, Vettel closing the massive gap to Alonso to only four points makes the championship boring. Alonso being 29 points ahead doesn't. :rolleyes:
     
  9. Anghammarad

    Anghammarad Premium

    Messages:
    2,375
    Location:
    Sweden
    I don't find Vettel particularly arrogant, in fact he seems like quite a likable guy off the track. His manners when winning, including the finger and the "that's what I'm talking about" shouting over the radio, have always struck me as being calculated and formulated by some PR guy rather than genuine and honest joy though, and I have very little respect for the type of person who cannot even be properly happy. I prefer Kimi's lack of emotion any day to that.


    I think I'm far from alone in fearing that the rest of the season will be a rerun of last year and that was indeed boring. It would be almost as boring if Alonso were to win all five of the remaining GPs. (But only almost :D )
     
  10. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    That's your opinion. Personally, I see him as a driver who was a great relationship with his team and truly appreciates them. I sincerely doubt that it has been "formulated by a pr guy" as any good pr guy would be able to look at any one of the thousands of racing forums out there and see that some people don't like it.

    I wouldn't mind if Vettel cleaned up in the remaining races but anything can happen.
     
  11. HeXoSKEL3t0n

    HeXoSKEL3t0n

    Messages:
    202
    I don't think it's really PR planned... The same enthusiastic way he always celebrates, even after winning many times already, feels really nice. I love his cheers, he sounds like an enthusiastic little child every time he does so, it does feel really refreshing to hear him express his joy with true honesty :D

    It's certainly a lot better than Hamilton's win 'celebration' in Monza recently IMO...
     
  12. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,427
    I don't care where it originated, it's just a celebration that smacks of arrogance. There's just no impression of joy in it, and I'm not saying that's he's arrogant the whole time. You'll note in my later post I said he seems nice enough in interviews - but then so did Schumacher and Alonso, yet both could happily be described as arrogant in their early careers.

    Bottom line: Someone brought up "the finger", and that's my view of it.

    It's double-standards. Anyone else has a poor race, and they're accused of "losing it" or something daft. Yet level the same criticism at Vettel and the fanboys explode with rage. And it's unique to Vettel, it seems - I've been watching F1 since 1992, and discussing it with friends and family since then too, and yet no other driver has seemd as "beyond criticism" as Vettel fans try to make him out to me.

    The silly thing is, I suspect Vettel would be the last person to consider himself immune from criticism, if he's as laid-back as you make out. Perhaps his fans should learn a little from his own attitudes.

    Incidentally, I personally don't think Vettel is making the championship boring. I think the rest of them have made it interesting this year...

    This is the stuff I consider boring. I can appreciate someone wanting to see their favourite driver win, but as a fan of the sport as a whole rather than just one driver, I prefer the championship to be as close as possible, whoever wins.

    Vettel "cleaning up" the remaining races would be equally as dull as several years of Schumacher domination were back in the early 00s, even if it's technically an impressive feat to witness.
     
  13. Pagey279

    Pagey279

    Messages:
    4,077
    Location:
    England
    Yes, it turns out I did miss it. Forgive me for this great injustice but I wasn't going to sit here and read all 500 odd posts. Calm down a bit dude :tup: looking at your posts it seems as though your going to suffer a heart attack any time soon.


    Same here, in his interviews he seems like a thoroughly nice guy.

    But those of you who think he's arrogant, so what? In his position, wouldn't you be?
    It takes nothing away from his skill, and talent. He's back to back world champion for a reason. He could have said yesterday "Yeah baby, I'm the best in the world, all of you can suck it!!" and I wouldn't have thought anything less of him.
    He can afford to be arrogant.
     
  14. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,427
    Which was my other point:

    ...and why I said that it wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

    So the real question shouldn't be "why does it matter if he's arrogant?" - it should be: "Why do Vettellians get so worked up about criticism of their star? At the end of the day he's fast, which is really all that matters*..."

    Actually, I'm beginning to think the Vettel thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. 1) Person says something about Vettel that isn't mindless gushing praise. 2) Vettel fans jump down their throat, saying "people are always saying that". 3) Any further criticism vindicates the "people are always saying that" stance.


    *Unless you like to see wheel-to-wheel racing, rather than one guy miles in the lead, of course.
     
  15. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    I disagree. I could type more but it would just be better to agree to disagree on this.

    Slight exaggeration. Yes, I know that there is the odd person with an axe to grind, but surely you can not have missed the general resentment a large chunk of people have towards Vettel? For example the recent comment a user made here along the lines of "my grandmother would be champion in his car". Try telling that to Webber. Go back and look at the Spa thread. When he was knocked out in Q2, there was a barrage of comments along the lines of "Haha Vettel" or "Vettel fail". Only some of them couldn't even spell his name right. You don't see that kind of thing to the same extent when Button, Webber, Hamilton or Alonso do the same. I don't think he is immune to criticism, but at the same time he is criticized for absolutely anything. Win or lose.

    Unique to Vettel? Perhaps you missed Daxcobra's posts defending Hamilton leaking confidential telemetry. "But he's not moaning". Hamilton is one of those drivers that some feel can do no wrong. Every driver has fans like this. I am not one of them. And I have also been watching F1 since 1992. I'm sorry you haven't noticed it, but it is out there.

    I want to see Vettel win the championship. I would like some exciting races in the meantime though. With two of the best drivers separated by four points, I think we could be in for an exciting end to the championship.


    No worries about my heart. I'm just thoroughly fed up with being taken out of context. Some people will just read whatever they want to read.

    While wheel to wheel racing is one of his weaker points, he is improving in this area. As for him "leading by miles" It's not his fault that on his day, most drivers can't keep up with him. It's almost like you're saying you'd like him more if was slower. And it's not like the other frontrunners aren't guilty of the same from time to time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  16. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,427
    I could understand your concern, but it often seems like Vettel fans aren't prepared to make the effort to distinguish between legitimate criticism and those who just have a chip on their shoulder about him.

    Witness, for example, those who genuinely couldn't (or didn't want to) see the difference between the Alonso/Vettel passes at Monza last year and this. Or those who defended his completely off-circuit pass on Button at Hockenheim.

    Both were worthy of criticism, yet god forbid anyone who tries to bring it up in the presence of a Vettel fan. If Maldonado had done either of those people would be screaming bloody murder and wanting his head on a spike!

    I've noticed it, but on nothing like the scale I have with Vettel. Perhaps that's understandable as a successful driver is likely to have lots of fans, but at the same time, that doesn't excuse the inability of some fans to accept anything remotely approaching criticism.

    I think we can both agree on this.

    Funnily enough, I didn't actually bring up his abilities in wheel to wheel racing, but I appreciate that even as a fan you can see that for yourself.

    And no, I wouldn't prefer it if Vettel was slower. In an ideal world, I'd prefer it if the others were faster! Anything that results in any driver being unable to just run away at the front is a good thing for the racing, as far as I'm concerned. I've found this year's parity much more entertaining to watch than last year's domination, that's for sure.
     
  17. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    It can get annoying seeing your favourite driver being put down for things when others aren't given the same treatment. Don't even get me started on all the people wishing his alternator would fail during the race. I have never wished the same on any driver. Not even Lewis, and I think I have made my opinion of him very clear.

    Well I'll admit to being one of those who complained about the penalty at Monza until I was reminded of the rule changes which had slipped my mind at the time. I still think the penalty was a little harsh though. I don't recall defending him at Hockenheim though. Not that you said I did.

    While you watch the race, you also get to listen to the expert opinion of the likes of Martin Brundle and get to listen to interviews with team personnel and drivers who have retired from the race. In Japan, I have two commentary options. Japanese, or none. While that means I often get to hear things that commentators talk over, it also means I miss out in all the opinions and behind the scenes discussions. As a result, I sometimes find it difficult to keep up with anything other than that which is on screen. It's made me appreciate commentary even more.

    On the subject of Maldonado, I think I'll go back to the Australian GP thread and re-read the posts made by those who were all of a sudden long time Grosjean fans, then read the more recent posts criticizing Grosjean. I think it should make for some good reading.

    I do get a little nervous whenever I see him lining up for an overtake, but he has clearly shown improvement in this area. I hope he can keep improving. Let's not forget, he is only twenty five and could be in the sport for another 15 years or so. Who knows, in a few years he may be an excellent overtaker. Couple that with his outright speed and I can see him being absolutely dominant.

    Ditto. I'm looking forward to the last five races. I'd prefer Vettel to win the championship, but couldn't really fault any driver who manages to emerge on top after the season we've had. That includes Lewis.
     
  18. Hugo Boss

    Hugo Boss Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    1,347
    Location:
    Netherlands
    That's purely your impression. I experience the same with a large share of Hamilton fans, so it isn't unique to Vettel. It must be 'unique' to both, part of the modern mentality of people/youth or simply depend on your own environment.

    Vettel is criticized a lot here at GTPlanet. Ofcourse he deserves his share of criticism (especially this season where he made some doubtful decisions/actions), but at the same the he doesn't get the recognition he deserves in my opinion. If it wasn't for F1 fan who stands up for Vettel on many occasions, I think there wouldn't even be a discussion about Vettel fans. Or give Vettel the recognition he deserves and you'll probably see the Vettel fans become less worked up..
     
  19. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,427
    I believe I have been doing, even if I don't particularly enjoy watching him clear off into the distance...

    That's not to say that others have, of course. I find people who have an obvious bias against a particular driver equally as irritating as it makes any sort of fair discussion on a driver quite difficult. As I hinted before, I watch for the racing rather than any particular driver. My driver preferences tend to hinge on the ones I like to watch, which is why Alonso has risen in my estimations in recent years, and why Vettel doesn't really do anything for me despite his success.

    It's why, ultimately, I prefer watching Touring Cars. Whoever wins, whether you love them or hate them, you can usually be sure of good racing. If the racing wasn't the most important aspect then we'd be happy to stare at results tables on the internet afterwards rather than avidly watching every race (or, the 50% that are on BBC, in my case :p).
     
  20. IceMan PJN

    IceMan PJN

    Messages:
    1,955
    Location:
    United States
    This brings me to a problem that I have with people in general. If a driver barely wins a championship, like Kimi in 2007 or Lewis in 2008, their win is disrespected as insignificant because they didn't handily dominate and win by a comfortable margin. "They weren't clearly the best, and other guys could just as well have won it." If they get the clear dominance they want to establish them as the clear winner who unquestionably outperformed the other guys, then it's "boring seeing the same guy win all the time".
     
  21. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,427
    If it's the same person saying both those things, then it's fairly hypocritical. Personally, I prefer it to go down to the wire, and the best guy still wins - even if there's a dash of luck in there somewhere. Hamilton's victory a few years back, where he snatched the place he needed to win on the very last corner of the very last race, was far more exciting than any championship where the result is tied up with several races to go.

    Seeing the same guy win all the time could be considered impressive, but from a sporting point of view it's rather dull to watch.
     
  22. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

    Messages:
    2,740
    Location:
    Portugal
    The discussion here is basically around Vettel can only win when he can use his sheer speed and doesn't have to show or apply 'proper' wheel to wheel race craft.

    Some value the latter more and a driver that can impose himself on equal or inferior hardware (I guess I do too), but one must be carefull not to depreciate the accomplishment of beeing faster, reliable and consistent, as it is sometimes (if not mostly nowadays) much harder than it may appear.
     
  23. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I still remember the scorn I got saying Vettel is as (or could be as) good as Alonso. How dare I. How dare I even compare a 2-time WDC with a 2-time WDC. :dunce:
     
  24. Grand Prix

    Grand Prix Premium

    Messages:
    4,263
    Location:
    Canada
    I thought the Michael Schumacher/Ferrari fans from 2002-2004 were more rabid, personally.

    "It's not domination!!!"

    "You're just jealous at his brilliance. Sour grapes, man, sour grapes!"

    "He didn't do anything wrong at Adelaide 1994, was Damon's fault."


    :lol:
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  25. ghskilla

    ghskilla

    Messages:
    3,541
    Location:
    United States
    I'm sorry, F1 fan, but please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I've said it plenty of times, he made it predictable in my opinion. If you would realize the situation, you'd know why it's predictable.

    With Alonso's points gone, Vettel can easily overtake him in points in the final races, given Ferrari's pace. And what will happen if Vettel overtakes Alonso in points and neither score a DNF? Chances are he'll stay there. It would have been more suspenseful seeing Vettel gnaw away at Alonso's point lead, and then hopefully coming down to a spectacular season finale. It would have been more exciting to see this 4 point gap at Brazil. Seriously, unless Vettel DNFs in these final races, its his championship to lose.
     
  26. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    Predictable... Boring... Not much difference. And going back to my original point, it's not Vettel's fault that Alonso handed 25 points to him on a silver platter. We now have the top two drivers within four points of each other rather than 29. Anything can happen in the remaining races

    You're the one who is already acting like vettel already has this in the bag. Personally, I am waiting to see what happens. It isn't over until it's over. And you certainly can't blame a driver for maximizing his opportunities like vettel did on Sunday. I wonder what you would have said if vettel crashed out and Alonso took the win...
     
  27. ghskilla

    ghskilla

    Messages:
    3,541
    Location:
    United States
    Come on. You honestly believe that Vettel is going to mess up these final races or suffer a mechanical issue? Sure, anything can happen, but Vettel's car advantage means he can outpace Alonso these final races. I know I'm not the only one in saying this.

    And back to your first statement, boring and predictable are two different things. You want to interpret it differently? Fine. If I believed that he made the championship boring I wouldn't watch these final races. It's just predictable now, Vettel is surely going to overtake Alonso in the points if he doesn't suffer a DNF. You know what's boring? Watching Vettel start from pole and lead the race without challenge. To me, that's boring. To you, boring might be the same thing as predictable, but it's not for me.

    Finally, I'd say, "Yes! Yes! Yes! It's going to be a hell of a time for Alonso to keep a gap on Vettel these final races!" I'd be more relieved than anything, because in my opinion Alonso deserves this title more than anyone else.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  28. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    Probably not, but he might have a Grosjean issue.
     
  29. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    Well I would like to see him winning the championship, but nothing is guaranteed. As for "car advantage" up until Singapore, the Mclaren looked to be the strongest car. So vettel has one weekend where the car and driver were completely in tune with the circuit and all of a sudden, he has a "car advantage". Over Alonso, perhaps, but there have been times this year where the red bull has been quite weak and the Ferrari of Alonso has been quite strong.

    And I don't care how many people think vettel has it in the bag. You only have to cast your mind back to 2010, 2008 or 2007 to see that it isn't over until it's truly over. The season we've had so far has been unpredictable and has been enjoyed by many. It's not my fault if you decide that with five races to go, it's over. Just take a look at those who whined endlessly in the Malaysian gp thread about Perez's off being "orchestrated" as he had a Ferrari contract in his back pocket. That never materialized now, did it?

    You really should play the lottery seeing as how you can see the future. You implied blame towards Vettel for making the championship "predictable". One thing you have yet to admit is that it wasn't his fault. You're so caught up with your prediction of the future that you can't see the possibility that we're in for an exciting end to the season. Instead, you act like it's a foregone conclusion, talk to me like I'm an idiot for not seeing things the way you do and place blame on drivers who haven't done anything wrong.

    And as for predictable v boring, you used predictable in negative context. And there are lots of people who believe that predictable = boring and unpredictable = exciting. That's why everyone claims last season was boring. You didn't hear anyone say "7 winners in 7 races. What a boring, unpredictable season."

    The person who finishes the season with the most points will be the deserving champion. It does speak volumes that you are supporting Alonso. Perhaps by "predictable" you mean "now my favourite driver threw away most of his advantage". Clearly Vettel's fault. :rolleyes:
     
  30. dhandeh

    dhandeh Premium

    Messages:
    11,315
    Location:
    England
    Care to expand?