2012 Japanese Grand Prix

[F1 fan]

Care to expand?

Well, Alonso got involved in a racing incident where both drivers felt the other was to blame. By retiring from a race that Vettel won, the gap closed from 29 points to four. You might call that a gift to Sebastian. It may have been unavoidable, or the outcome may have been different if he moved over before Button closed the gap. We'll never know. At the end of the day, it was a very costly retirement.

 

[ghskilla]

Malaysia and Germany. The only race that he won without Vettel finishing this year is at Valencia. You can't honestly say it's Alonso's fault that Renault alternators had a failure? Though I may be a little hypocritical because I previously stated that Vettel made the championship predictable, through no fault of his own.

Are you even reading my posts? That's probably the fourth time I've had to correct you, you put words in my statements that I've never said. Or say that I haven't said.

Can you seriously get it through your head that I've already said that anything can happen, but the chances are very slim of Vettel making a stupid error in these last few races. There's still a chance, but there's also a chance of Alonso making another one.

And as for car advantage, the McLaren looked stronger than the Red Bulls, but the Red Bulls look much stronger than the Ferraris. Do you honestly believe that the Ferrari is stronger than the Red Bull at the moment? The past is the past, the drivers had their ups and downs and moments where their car was the best or when their car wasn't up to speed, but now we're talking about the current pace of the cars. Show me an instance after the summer break that proves that the Ferrari is better than the Red Bull.

Can't you see the possibility that we might not have an exciting end to the season? Sure, I'm being pessimistic, but what if Alonso DNF's from now on out? Maybe Vettel DNF's a few more times, who knows, but chances are those two won't suffer DNF's these final races of the season, unless they find a Lotus in their rear end.

Hey, maybe we are in a nice end for the season, when Vettel makes a mistake or his car just doesn't work, or when both drivers retire from the race allowing Kimi or Hamilton to catch up. Maybe that could happen. If if if if if. Chances of that happening? Pretty slim. But there's still a chance. I'm bolding that so that you don't miss it again and claim that I don't accept other possibilities.

 

[Submerged]

disregard

 

[dhandeh]

...
Can't you see the possibility that we might not have an exciting end to the season? ...

He is a Vettel fan and as he mentioned earlier, he couldn't care less if Vettel won the remaining races. If you mentally change his user name to Vettelfan, it makes more sense with his posts.

 

[F1 fan]

Are you even reading my posts? That's probably the fourth time I've had to correct you, you put words in my statements that I've never said. Or say that I haven't said.

Where have I done this. And forgive me for not going back through the thread to look for your previous posts. I'll respond to debates or arguments as they are presented to me. I'm not going to browse through your post history every time I want to respond to a comment that you make and I'm sure you're not going to extend the same courtesy to me.

Can you seriously get it through your head that I've already said that anything can happen, but the chances are very slim of Vettel making a stupid error in these last few races. There's still a chance, but there's also a chance of Alonso making another one.

Well we will have to wait and see. I've already said that I'd like Vettel to win, but he's not taking his current form for granted, so why should we?

And as for car advantage, the McLaren looked stronger than the Red Bulls, but the Red Bulls look much stronger than the Ferraris. Do you honestly believe that the Ferrari is stronger than the Red Bull at the moment?

No. And I never said that it did. Now who's putting words in whose mouth? The form has changed drastically this season and different cars naturally suit different circuits. We really can't be sure what will happen. That's what I've been trying to say all along.

The past is the past, the drivers had their ups and downs and moments where their car was the best or when their car wasn't up to speed, but now we're talking about the current pace of the cars. Show me an instance after the summer break that proves that the Ferrari is better than the Red Bull.

I never said that they were. I simply said that until Singapore, the Mclaren looked to be the strongest car and the Ferrari certainly looked strong at Monza. There are a lot of tracks with long straights coming up and the weather and luck could play a factor. Or Ferrari could roll out a massive update that enables Alonso to walk it.

Can't you see the possibility that we might not have an exciting end to the season?

Yes. I can see a possibility, but regardless of what quote you can drag up, you have been downplaying the possibility more than not.

Sure, I'm being pessimistic,

You are.

but what if Alonso DNF's from now on out? Maybe Vettel DNF's a few more times,

It's certainly possible.

who knows,

No one. That is what I have been trying to say all along.

but chances are those two won't suffer DNF's these final races of the season, unless they find a Lotus in their rear end.

The teams will be concentrating on reliabilty, but that doesn't mean there won't be any failures. Which I might add, Vettel has had far more than Alonso in recent years.

Hey, maybe we are in a nice end for the season, when Vettel makes a mistake or his car just doesn't work, or when both drivers retire from the race allowing Kimi or Hamilton to catch up. Maybe that could happen. If if if if if. Chances of that happening? Pretty slim. But there's still a chance. I'm bolding that so that you don't miss it again and claim that I don't accept other possibilities.

You're the one who said it was predictable. You're the one who implied that it was unlikely that anyone other than Vettel would win. Don't try to turn the tables.

He is a Vettel fan and as he mentioned earlier, he couldn't care less if Vettel won the remaining races. If you mentally change his user name to Vettelfan, it makes more sense with his posts.

Nice. What was that you were saying about not being able to resist making digs at others? Hello pot. Meet kettle. Like your constant "Hamilton's fault" pot stirring. All I have been trying to do is say that anything can happen. Did you miss this, or are you so blinded by the driver I support that you just overlook the facts? It's all rather reminiscent of the time where Homeforsummer and I were effectively arguing the same point. You took issue with what I said and dragged it out over several posts of quoting and responses but you did not do the same to Homeforsummer. Granted, his posts were written more eloquently, but he is a journalist.

As I said this past weekend, you've been going after my posts like a shark who can smell a drop of blood in the water.

 

[dhandeh]

It wasn't a dig, just stating a fact.

As for the "Hamilton's fault", that is a long running joke.You obviously don't do jokes. That isn't a dig either.

 

[F1 fan]

It wasn't a dig, just stating a fact.

You're not stating facts. What does me being a Vettel fan have to do with me saying "The championship's not over. Anything can happen"? Absolutely nothing. Your comment about me being a Vettel fan was irrelevant to the conversation, therefore, it was a dig. I see there's no response about my insinuation about you going after my posts either.

As for the "Hamilton's fault",

No. It's pot stirring. You started the joke when I went on an anti Hamilton rant at one point. I was warned by Famine about this and have since scaled my discussion of Hamilton back to "If you don't have anything positive to say..." Yet week in, week out, you post it. I see it as pot stirring. Though I could be wrong. Humour doesn't always translate well online.

You obviously don't do jokes. That isn't a dig either.

And you obviously don't do unbiased posting when it comes to me. I expect an answer to the first part of my post. You aren't obligated to give me one, but if you don't I may actually have a reason to use the ignore list for the first time in my first three years on GTP due to the complete lack of relevance of your comments.

 

[ghskilla]

Where have I done this. And forgive me for not going back through the thread to look for your previous posts. I'll respond to debates or arguments as they are presented to me. I'm not going to browse through your post history every time I want to respond to a comment that you make and I'm sure you're not going to extend the same courtesy to me.

I tend to look into others posts before putting quotation marks around what they say just so I don't make them look like they've said worse than they actually did. Hint hint. I forgive you, but please for a debate's sake look at what other people are saying just so you don't misquote them.

No. And I never said that it did. Now who's putting words in whose mouth? The form has changed drastically this season and different cars naturally suit different circuits. We really can't be sure what will happen. That's what I've been trying to say all along.

I never said that they were. I simply said that until Singapore, the Mclaren looked to be the strongest car and the Ferrari certainly looked strong at Monza. There are a lot of tracks with long straights coming up and the weather and luck could play a factor. Or Ferrari could roll out a massive update that enables Alonso to walk it.

You've said that at some instances that the Ferrari was stronger than the Red Bull. Do you want me to bring up a quote on this, as well? I wanted you to tell me an instance after the summer break when the Ferrari seemed stronger than Red Bull. Monza is a ridiculously obvious one, I mean, what did you expect from a team that runs higher downforce in a low downforce track?

Yes. I can see a possibility, but regardless of what quote you can drag up, you have been downplaying the possibility more than not.

No, I haven't. That is my main argument. Vettel is making the end of the season predictable. Since you previously said that boring and predictable don't have much of a difference, then I might as well save you the trouble of putting words in my mouth by actually saying that by what you think means what, then Vettel is making the end of the season less exciting.

You are.

And with good reason. Given Vettel's pace over Alonso, disregarding the McLarens, do you believe that Alonso has a fair chance of beating Vettel?

You're the one who said it was predictable. You're the one who implied that it was unlikely that anyone other than Vettel would win. Don't try to turn the tables.

I'm going by patterns here. Even if Vettel didn't win, and Alonso were to finish behind him, he'd still extend a gap. Maybe an odd race there that Alonso finishes ahead, but 3/5 I'm believing that Vettel will finish ahead of Alonso, given his recent performance. You're the one implying that I can't accept other possibilities because of my prediction.

You really should play the lottery seeing as how you can see the future. You implied blame towards Vettel for making the championship "predictable". One thing you have yet to admit is that it wasn't his fault. You're so caught up with your prediction of the future that you can't see the possibility that we're in for an exciting end to the season. Instead, you act like it's a foregone conclusion, talk to me like I'm an idiot for not seeing things the way you do and place blame on drivers who haven't done anything wrong.

You're also implying that I think of you as an idiot in this statement. Sure, go ahead and make me look like the bad guy. Do you really see me forcing my opinion on you? I've already said that this is pointless but you just keep on replying and/or making remarks and then putting words into my posts thus forcing me to correct you, which in turn then causes you to bring back the pointless arguing, then we're back at square one.

Haven't we established this already? He made it more predictable, you put quotes around "ruined" implying I said he ruined the championship, I didn't, and I was saying he made it more predictable. I also said he didn't cause the incident. Now let's cut the pointless argument please?

 

[Submerged]

Tasty popcorn morning, isn't it?

 

[dhandeh]

My point about you being a Vettel fan was directed at ghskilla. Hence why I quoted his comment. I replied saying that you are a Vettel fan and you couldn't care less if he won the remaining races. The point of you being a Vettel fan, is the whole story. He wanted a thrilling championship, someone said, "cheers Vettel you have ruined it". Maybe this was a tongue in cheek comment, a joke perhaps, maybe it was meant seriously. You being a Vettel fan, took offence at his comment, and got all high and mighty about it.

I take it you are a Vettel fan and you did say that you wouldn't mind him winning the remaining races?

I haven't got an issue with whoever wins the remaining races, I havent entered that discussion, the only time I smelt blood as you put it, was when you said it was Alonso fault (not Hamilton's ) 100% for his spin.

I can't even remember when the "Hamilton's fault" thing started, (maybe the Massa incidents last year). If you think everytime I mention that, it is a dig at you, then that is totally incorrect. Everytime there is a balls up in F1, I will say "Hamilton's fault". It's a joke.


There are three points in red, my idea of a joke are the first and second highlighted, I believe your idea of a joke is the first and third highlighted. To be honest, it may be a lack of clarity because itz teh internetz, and If you want to block me, go for it, I won't be losing any sleep.

joke (jk)
n.
1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.
2. A mischievous trick; a prank.
3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.
4. Informal
a. Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.
b. An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office.
v. joked, jok·ing, jokes
v.intr.
1. To tell or play jokes; jest.
2. To speak in fun; be facetious.
v.tr.
To make fun of; tease.

 

[Pagey279]

Tasty popcorn morning, isn't it?

Grab your popcorn, nachos, ice cream, fizzy drink, put your feet up, sit back and relax and enjoy the show.

 

[dhandeh]

I think you're too late.

 

[Hugo Boss]

I believe I have been doing, even if I don't particularly enjoy watching him clear off into the distance...

That's not to say that others have, of course. I find people who have an obvious bias against a particular driver equally as irritating as it makes any sort of fair discussion on a driver quite difficult. As I hinted before, I watch for the racing rather than any particular driver. My driver preferences tend to hinge on the ones I like to watch, which is why Alonso has risen in my estimations in recent years, and why Vettel doesn't really do anything for me despite his success.

It's why, ultimately, I prefer watching Touring Cars. Whoever wins, whether you love them or hate them, you can usually be sure of good racing. If the racing wasn't the most important aspect then we'd be happy to stare at results tables on the internet afterwards rather than avidly watching every race (or, the 50% that are on BBC, in my case ).

You're right, you have been doing so. I didn't make it clear that I wanted to direct the second part of my post at the members here that don't.

I also don't really enjoy watching drivers clear off into the distance, but that's what great drivers do. I rate Vettel very high (imo the best driver along with Alonso atm) because of his ability to drive qualifying laps at 110%, nail his starts and be able to establish a solid lead before DRS is enabled. On top of that he's able to stay focused the entire race, manage his tyres well, is well above average regarding racecraft and near the end of the season when the preassure is high, he's able to deliver.
Still, in races like last weekend, I don't have to see him on the screen after lap 3, maybe except for when he makes his pitstops and wins the race. I rather watch the Saubers attempting to pass at the hairpin. However at Spa, after the disappointment of the turn 1 chaos, it was Vettel, along with Räikkönen, who provided the entertainment.
I think the fact that I don't have a favourite F1 driver and only dislike a handful of them, allows me to enjoy almost every race as I also watch for the racing.

You're lucky to live in the UK, HFS, despite only being able to watch 50% of the F1 races (next year I'll probably get to see none here in NL). The BTCC is still the most entertaining series when you're a fan of good (not fair...) racing...

 

[F1 fan]

I tend to look into others posts before putting quotation marks around what they say just so I don't make them look like they've said worse than they actually did. Hint hint.

As do I. What I don't do is waste my time looking back through every post a user has made. I certainly read whatever I quote.

You've said that at some instances that the Ferrari was stronger than the Red Bull.

Indeed I did.

Do you want me to bring up a quote on this, as well?

Not necessary. I remember what I say.

I wanted you to tell me an instance after the summer break when the Ferrari seemed stronger than Red Bull.

I never said there was one. There have been times this season when Ferrari have looked stronger, but I never said they have after the summer break. Monza aside. Were you the person who was asking when Button has ever been dominant in a McLaren, only to be given an example of Button dominating in a McLaren, only to then say "in the dry", given an answer then changed it again to "including qualifying"? I'm not sure if it was you, but what you are doing now is similar. I never claimed Ferrari had a stronger car after the break, but you seem to be asking me for an example of just that as if I ever implied that they did.

No, I haven't. That is my main argument. Vettel is making the end of the season predictable. Since you previously said that boring and predictable don't have much of a difference, then I might as well save you the trouble of putting words in my mouth by actually saying that by what you think means what, then Vettel is making the end of the season less exciting.

How dare he take a win when his main rival crashes out on the first lap? What a selfish idiot he is.

And with good reason. Given Vettel's pace over Alonso, disregarding the McLarens, do you believe that Alonso has a fair chance of beating Vettel?

Alonso is arguably the most complete driver on the grid. If anyone has a chance of coming out ahead, it's him. I'm not writing anyone/anything off.

I'm going by patterns here. Even if Vettel didn't win, and Alonso were to finish behind him, he'd still extend a gap. Maybe an odd race there that Alonso finishes ahead, but 3/5 I'm believing that Vettel will finish ahead of Alonso, given his recent performance. You're the one implying that I can't accept other possibilities because of my prediction.

Anything is possible in F1. Red Bull have very spotty reliability. Ferrari have the best in the field.

You're also implying that I think of you as an idiot in this statement. Sure, go ahead and make me look like the bad guy. Do you really see me forcing my opinion on you?

Pretty much. You've been downplaying Alonso's chances consistently. Let's not forget, with a bit of bad luck for Alonso and Vettel, Hamilton or Raikkonen could be right up there too. We don't know how the season will play out. This is what I've been saying.

I've already said that this is pointless but you just keep on replying and/or making remarks and then putting words into my posts thus forcing me to correct you, which in turn then causes you to bring back the pointless arguing, then we're back at square one.

I do agree that we keep going nowhere, but you are as responsible of that as I am. I didn't blame anyone for the current championship standings.

My point about you being a Vettel fan was directed at ghskilla. Hence why I quoted his comment. I replied saying that you are a Vettel fan and you couldn't care less if he won the remaining races.

I wasn't aware that it became a crime to want to see your favourite driver win. Perhaps you should go up to fans at a football match and ask them who they want to win. I imagine the answers you get will be predictable.

The point of you being a Vettel fan, is the whole story. He wanted a thrilling championship, someone said, "cheers Vettel you have ruined it".

He said it. Not someone else. The fact that I'm a Vettel fan is completely irrelevant in the current conversation. You may notice I took a similar stand in the MotoGP thread when someone claimed that the championship was over with several races still to run because Pedrosa crashed. The bookies aren't paying out because it isn't over

You being a Vettel fan, took offence at his comment, and got all high and mighty about it.

Gee, Vettel, thanks for making the end of the season anti-climactic. 👎

This was my response.

Can you really blame him for winning a race? Surely the blame lies with Alonso for spinning out all by himself.

As you know, I've already withdrawn the bolded part. What on earth was "high and mighty" about that comment?

I take it you are a Vettel fan and you did say that you wouldn't mind him winning the remaining races?

I am a fan of him and I wouldn't mind seeing him win the remaining races. I wasn't aware that this was illegal. The whole point I was trying to make all along is that anything can happen before the end of the season. I wasn't defending Vettel, merely telling it as it is.

I haven't got an issue with whoever wins the remaining races, I havent entered that discussion

Nor have I. I have enjoyed the season so far and I'm interested to see who will come out on top.

I can't even remember when the "Hamilton's fault" thing started, (maybe the Massa incidents last year). If you think everytime I mention that, it is a dig at you, then that is totally incorrect. Everytime there is a balls up in F1, I will say "Hamilton's fault". It's a joke.

I seem to remember you posting it in response to one of my posts.

There are three points in red, my idea of a joke are the first and second highlighted, I believe your idea of a joke is the first and third highlighted. To be honest, it may be a lack of clarity because itz teh internetz, and If you want to block me, go for it, I won't be losing any sleep.

So I don't get your sense of humour. At least not the way it comes across to me online anyway. Different things make different people laugh. I do love how you think you know so much about me. I doubt you could tell me much about myself, yet you seem to think of yourself as an accurate judge of my sense of humour.

 

[dhandeh]

I wasn't aware that it became a crime to want to see your favourite driver win. Perhaps you should go up to fans at a football match and ask them who they want to win. I imagine the answers you get will be predictable.

Never said it was.

He said it. Not someone else. The fact that I'm a Vettel fan is completely irrelevant in the current conversation. You may notice I took a similar stand in the MotoGP thread when someone claimed that the championship was over with several races still to run because Pedrosa crashed. The bookies aren't paying out because it isn't over

Someone said it, you took the issue on yourself, no one else is still flogging that horse two days later.

As you know, I've already withdrawn the bolded part. What on earth was "high and mighty" about that comment?

Do I really need to answer this?

I am a fan of him and I wouldn't mind seeing him win the remaining races. I wasn't aware that this was illegal. The whole point I was trying to make all along is that anything can happen before the end of the season. I wasn't defending Vettel, merely telling it as it is.

Never said it was illegal.

Nor have I. I have enjoyed the season so far and I'm interested to see who will come out on top.

Same here.

I seem to remember you posting it in response to one of my posts.

The fact I quoted a post of yours once, that I can't even remember makes any future use of the term aimed solely and directly at you, is, well, mind boggling.

So I don't get your sense of humour. At least not the way it comes across to me online anyway. Different things make different people laugh. I do love how you think you know so much about me. I doubt you could tell me much about myself, yet you seem to think of yourself as an accurate judge of my sense of humour.

You multi quote, like guitars and play Fallout.

 

[F1 fan]

Never said it was.

So in what way was it relevant to bring up who my favourite driver? It has nothing to do with the conversation.

Someone said it, you took the issue on yourself, no one else is still flogging that horse two days later.

The fact that I'm still being quoted on this is what's keeping it all going.

Do I really need to answer this?

Go ahead.

Never said it was illegal.

You brought it up.

The fact I quoted a post of yours once, that I can't even remember makes any future use of the term aimed solely and directly at you, is, well, mind boggling.

The first time I noticed it was in response to one of my posts. I admit, I may be wrong about this part, but you post it in every race thread to the point where I think that is just spam or is a dig at someone.

You multi quote, like guitars and play Fallout.

Wow. Do you have time to write my biography?

 

[dhandeh]

Mention of Vettel - It was brought up, to maybe give ghskilla an understanding of why you are so vociferous in relation to Vettel, it wasn't meant as a dig at you, it was stating a fact.
Take astrodude, every race he says Vettel driver of the day, people then reply with fry jpeg, trolls etc, he doesn't take offence. He lets it go.

I never had an issue with who wins the remaining races, even though you try to make out I do. If Vettel does so be it, if Alonso does so be it. It doesn't bother me. What does bother me is your refusing to accept another persons opinion, whether that opinion is right or wrong.

Hamiltons fault - The fact that you are paranoid about a throwaway comment, that appears in every F1 thread isn't my problem If you believe it is spam, next time report it.

As for the biography, I think I have covered it.

*Jerry Springer closing statement*

This is incredibly tedious now.

The only thing I pulled you up on was the Alonso thing, you acknowleged contact. I didn't say another word. You then mention the silver platter, which to me is the same thing as Alonso being at fault 100%. If this wasn't meant as that as you said earlier then fair enough.

 

[Pagey279]

I think you're too late.

No no, it looks like I'm just in time

 

[fps_christian]

2012 - still arguing on the internet...Get real guys

 

[HeXoSKEL3t0n]

Can't everyone just acknowledge each and every drivers' pros and cons, and just move on?

It'd be nice if people could stop their obvious bias against some drivers to get in the way of the actual discussions here, by first stopping with all the ignorant, one-sided posts against various drivers.

It is for this reason why some of us feel the need to defend our favoured drivers. To add on, just because we all have our own favourites, it doesn't necessarily mean we'd all resort to fake or vague evidence to defend, or have our judgement completely clouded.

There are actually some people who are capable of posting their views without letting their bias get in the way all the time...

 

[Pagey279]

It'd be nice if people could stop their obvious bias against some drivers to get in the way of the actual discussions here, by first stopping with all the ignorant, one-sided posts against various drivers.

+1

This is why sometimes I refrain posting in the grand prix threads in certain situations, because if you say something critical of a certain driver you get into a long, tedious, and thoroughly pointless "debate" as we have seen.

I just comment on the situations now and not the drivers in particular. I've made that mistake before.

 

[homeforsummer]

Blimey. After seeing the last few pages I wish I'd not mentioned the "V" word...

For those of you joining at this point, no, not "vagina".

You're lucky to live in the UK, HFS, despite only being able to watch 50% of the F1 races (next year I'll probably get to see none here in NL). The BTCC is still the most entertaining series when you're a fan of good (not fair...) racing...

Heh. Yeah, not always fair racing, something I've complained about plenty in the BTCC threads!

 

[Dennisch]

+1

This is why sometimes I refrain posting in the grand prix threads in certain situations, because if you say something critical of a certain driver you get into a long, tedious, and thoroughly pointless "debate" as we have seen.

I just comment on the situations now and not the drivers in particular. I've made that mistake before.

+1

Let me quote something I said earlier this week, in a different thread.

Why does every single F1 thread turn into a "this driver is better than that one" fanboy thread? The immaturity is strong in that thread, so strong that it could blend in into the Gt5 section.

 

[Ardius]

Just to throw my penny on Alonso vs Vettel - either would deserve the title. Alonso for being Mr Consistencey and making the most of his machinery (I don't think anyone could argue that he could have got any more out of it!). Vettel for a great comeback through the year.
Both of them have benefitted from luck..as have all of the front-runners except perhaps Hamilton.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of any of the front-runners except for Button. So it doesn't really bother me which one takes it.
For the purposes of mixing it up, Alonso or especially Raikkonen or Hamilton would be good. Webber just for the sake of it.

I wouldn't write off Alonso just yet though. The Ferrari might suck still but he has shown plenty of times this year he can still pull a win out of it given a sniff of a chance.
Considering where Massa finished in this race, one can safely assume Alonso would have been in with a shout at a race win there..

 

[dhandeh]

Blimey. After seeing the last few pages I wish I'd not mentioned the "V" word...

For those of you joining at this point, no, not "vagina"...

You said vagina.

*chortle chortle*