2012 Santander Italian Grand Prix

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Webber is still one of the better drivers on the grid. Age clearly isn't the limiting factor some people think it is (*cough*Schumacher*cough*) so as long as he's placing highly and winning the odd race I hardly see who they could get to do a better job.

He's 8 points behind his team mate, the world champion of the last two years. There's various factors that have fallen in his favour to have the gap that close, but he's still put in a very good drive this year.

I mean, he's not driving like a certain Brazilian in a certain red Italian car or anything...
 
Schumacher's doing well for his age. He's outpaced Nico this season when he didn't suffer from retirements, and when he didn't retire he managed to stay in the top 10. Yes, Schumacher isn't as good compared to his Ferrari days, but he's doing better than Massa, I agree with you there.

And yeah, Webber doesn't need to retire. He can score good amount of points and wins, and he's a benefit to Red Bull. Might not be the best, but he's certainly above the average F1 driver.
 
One little help for the Vettel versus Alonso debate:


monza-ed61.jpg



MrMelancholy15
Penalties definitely make for close racing.
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Many congratulations, without doubt the most wise sentence in all thread.
For the doubters i have this images of the most fierce fright ever in F1 (and i saw that live on the TV :)).
Fierce but with no reason for penalty´s by the actual rules and stewardship standards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3tXJm9tYGM
 
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Webber's clearly losing his abilities, though. He spun @ Monza, when the motor cut out. Someone said that all of the other Renault drivers were able to stop their cars without damaging the chassis, but not Webber... It's not just that, but, he can't keep up with Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso & Button.
 
MrMelancholy15
Webber's clearly losing his abilities, though.
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40 years following and 35 seeing F1 did´t give me the faculty to gauge a driver´s performance, so you can tell me what are the clear signals that Webber is losing performance, please? Thanks.

MrMelancholy15
Someone said that all of the other Renault drivers were able to stop their cars without damaging the chassis, but not Webber...
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That leave me wondering what wold happen if i tell you that Santa Claus really exist.

MrMelancholy15
but, he can't keep up with Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso & Button.
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? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/869/

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/872/
 
MrMelancholy15
Webber's clearly losing his abilities, though. He spun @ Monza, when the motor cut out. Someone said that all of the other Renault drivers were able to stop their cars without damaging the chassis, but not Webber... It's not just that, but, he can't keep up with Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso & Button.
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People make mistakes, Webber isn't that far behind Vettel, Kimi, and Hamilton. He's also 30+ points ahead of Button. In fact, this is one of his better seasons, and while it may not be the best of chances, he could be champion at the end of this season. I highly doubt it, though.
 
But, Monaco was a fluke one-off because of the first lap etc., that left no one else in realistic contention. Webber's not as talented as Vettel. Red Bull need: ALTERNATOR FIXED & a better #2 driver. Just like Alonso & Massa; Alonso proves every week that Ferrari is fast. Massa proves every week that Ferrari's last. The difference between Vettel & Webber's smaller, but, it's there. I reckon Vettel will do well, and Webber will struggle for points at Singapore.
 
MrMelancholy15
Webber's clearly losing his abilities, though. He spun @ Monza, when the motor cut out. Someone said that all of the other Renault drivers were able to stop their cars without damaging the chassis, but not Webber... It's not just that, but, he can't keep up with Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso & Button.
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So Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel should all retire?

Each has spun the car at one point or another in the past two seasons.

Spinning the car when the motor cuts off and swings the handling balance all the way forward is not hard to do.

Webber may not be the fastest driver out there, but he's stepped up his game. He's consistently qualifying good, and brings in results. He's by far the most consistent number two among the big three. So why single him out?
 
Webber is still a fantastic driver. Bit too many eggs in the basket judging him by that spin. Honestly I think it would be really hard to separate the top 7-8 drivers if you put them in equal machinery.
 
Webber is good but he has been outperformed by Vettel consistently over the last few years. He still has the ability to win races even when the car isn't the clear favourite, if he finishes a long way behind Vettel next year then get someone else in because at the moment they have one of the strongest driver line ups on the grid.
 
MrMelancholy15
It's not just that, but, he can't keep up with Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso & Button.
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Please tell me this is a joke?

Lets look at Silverstone shall we? Alonso vs Webber was pretty much the battle for 1st in the race. Last 10 or so laps one driver caught up and over took another driver. Please refresh my memory as to who this was?
 
SilverArrow
So you're saying Vettel isn't ready for F1 then, since he's only won one.
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^^ This season, because of his alternators...


I'm done here, though. People are stubborn. I'll accept that as a reality, and realize that Adrian Newey might be just as stubborn as you guys... :indiff:
 
MrMelancholy15
That's two races. :dunce: I've won two races on GTP. :sly: That doesn't mean that I'm ready for Formula 1.
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Mate, I spend a lot of time going through all "promotion series" (F2, F3, WSR 3.5, etc...) entry list and can´t find the Webber you are talking about.
The only Webber i find is Mark, but that one is a very well established veteran of F1, with race wins under his belt.
So, can you tell me who is that Webber who is not ready for F1 yet, please? Thanks.
 
MrMelancholy15
^^ This season, because of his alternators...


I'm done here, though. People are stubborn. I'll accept that as a reality, and realize that Adrian Newey might be just as stubborn as you guys... :indiff:
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Yeah, shame on Adrian for not firing the guy who's keeping them in first place in the constructor's championship in the second best car on the grid. He really should know better!

Talk about pots and kettles... Perhaps you ought to review the season results before declaring Mark a failure. 2011 was a terrible year for him, but he has been on fire this season.
 
MrMelancholy15
Someone said that all of the other Renault drivers were able to stop their cars without damaging the chassis, but not Webber... It's not just that, but, he can't keep up with Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso & Button.
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Case closed, it must be gospel.

Rather then trying to pretend that your views are fact, how about you just say "in my opinion".
 
hornet_burnout
'Pirelli's test car hit by alternator failure during work at Barcelona'

Even the test car??

Also, Grosjean also abandoned due to this once (and not crashed :rolleyes: ) so, yes it's mostly but not just a RBR issue.
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Mike Rotch
Case closed, it must be gospel.

Rather then trying to pretend that your views are fact, how about you just say "in my opinion".
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With respect, it was fact, that someone HAD mentioned that Grosjean didn't crash the car, when the same thing happened to him, as what happened to Webber. I'm proving that with this post.


Anyways, for someone who's seemingly irritated by the post, why continue the argument?
 
So you have absolute, uneqiuvocal proof that all incidents happened at the same speed, in the same kind of situation, same cornering loads, same pace, same tire conditions? I'm pretty sure an alternator dying on you as you're driving straight down the main straight is the same as it dying elsewhere, right?

That Webber spun a car that died on him, changing the balance unpredictably means little. He has not plowed people off the road like Grosjean or Vettel, earning himself silly penalties. His pace is consistent. He's racking up the points.

You're building an entire case for dropping the most consistent driver on the grid behind Alonso simply because he spun a dead car. Whoopee.
 
Not irritated here with anyone in particular. Just that usually and generally people are trending with poor Vettel taken out by lack of reliability, and conspiracy theories while slamming Romain as a crasher.
 
@MrMelancholy

If Red Bull were to let Webber go (which would be insane if you ask me, but for the sake of argument) who would they replace him with that would be better?

Neither of the Toro Rosso guys are even nearly in the same league. Alonso and Button are locked up, and I'm not sure that there's anyone else other than Hamilton on the grid who provides a greater level of proven performance than Mark. Strictly speaking Hamilton is available, but McLaren will be shooting themselves in the face if they fail to get him to resign.

You could make a case for Perez, but Webber has proven his performance at the front of the field whereas Perez is still just a very good driver in a second tier car. He will likely perform very well if given a front running car, but it's not automatic.

So please, who is so much better than Webber that RB should ditch him for this mystery driver?
 
Well you have to give a chance to a young (fast) driver at some point. If teams would be looking for only consistant veteran drivers we'll have the same old names in top teams forever.
Actually there hasn't been a driver change in top 3 teams for ages now.
 
nissman
Well you have to give a chance to a young (fast) driver at some point. If teams would be looking for only consistant veteran drivers we'll have the same old names in top teams forever.
Actually there hasn't been a driver change in top 3 teams for ages now.
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The teams are in the business of winning. There hasn't been a driver change in some time, because who would you trade up to instead of Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Button or Webber? These are men at the top of their game, and capable of winning a race on any given weekend. Raikkonen is the only man outside of the top 3 teams capable of keeping up with them consistently.

You take a gamble on a young driver if your second man is underperforming (hello Massa!) and the risk is worth it. You don't ditch someone who is 8 championship points behind his double world champion team mate for the chance to gamble on a young driver.

The top teams have no obligations to "give young drivers a chance". They do so when no better options present themselves, or if the young driver in question is in fact one of the top drivers in the sport regardless of age as was the case with Hamilton.
 
Yes agreed, I don't understand why Montezomolo's insisting on not hiring Perez due to inexperience... Perez has shown he has high potential, Ferrari and Alonso can help to groom him into champion material without fear of him being snapped up from other teams.

Apart from two or three solid races, Massa hasn't really been up to task. They don't have much to lose by giving it a shot with Perez really.

Maybe Montezomolo's trying not to unsettle Massa with usual PR talk? Especially when they're trying to gun for both titles right now, they can't afford to have Massa's confidence crushed right now...
 
HeXoSKEL3t0n
Yes agreed, I don't understand why Montezomolo's insisting on not hiring Perez due to inexperience... Perez has shown he has high potential, Ferrari and Alonso can help to groom him into champion material without fear of him being snapped up from other teams.

Apart from two or three solid races, Massa hasn't really been up to task. They don't have much to lose by giving it a shot with Perez really.

Maybe Montezomolo's trying not to unsettle Massa with usual PR talk? Especially when they're trying to gun for both titles right now, they can't afford to have Massa's confidence crushed right now...
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I'm not sure if there's much truth to it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...replace-Lewis-Hamilton.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
 

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