2012 Santander Italian Grand Prix

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Mike Rotch
It's just telling that Alonso and Webber and Alonso and (can't remember this year's one from last week...Kimi?) can pass each other through Eau Rouge no problem, but SV can't be trusted to not wedge someone onto the grass in a corner with multiple racing lines.
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Quite. There's a handful of current drivers who can race incredibly hard but incredibly cleanly - Webber, Kimi, Alonso, Button - but I don't think Vettel is one of those drivers. He's more like Schumacher in that he'd prefer to do something borderline dangerous when fighting with other drivers.

dhandeh
It tends to look worse than last years incident as Alonso went completely off track, there was still enough space for him to keep two wheels on the hard stuff though, just like Vettel did.
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There was enough space to go only two wheels off, but that wouldn't leave much safety margin. If a driver's safety margin is reduced to having to leave the track entirely, like Alonso did, then that's when the questions about Vettel's positioning arise.

Alonso didn't need to entirely leave the circuit (though only marginally), but last year, Vettel didn't need to leave the circuit at all. They just gave themselves a slightly larger margin.
 
Concerning the whole 'Alonso being pushed off by Vettel', I think Alonso should get a penalty for doing that to him last year. It only seems fair.
 
otakukid96
Concerning the whole 'Alonso being pushed off by Vettel', I think Alonso should get a penalty for doing that to him last year. It only seems fair.
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Why would it be fair? Alonso was fair with last year's move, Vettel wasn't this year. And we can't go back and penalize him for last year, now can we?
 
otakukid96
Concerning the whole 'Alonso being pushed off by Vettel', I think Alonso should get a penalty for doing that to him last year. It only seems fair.
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I shall be petitioning the FIA into imposing a five place grid penalty on Alonso for the 2011 Singapore GP. That'll teach the pesky Spaniard.
 
otakukid96
Concerning the whole 'Alonso being pushed off by Vettel', I think Alonso should get a penalty for doing that to him last year. It only seems fair.
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*Sigh*

We've been over this. Alonso left Vettel a car's width, plus a bit more. Vettel left Alonso with less than a car's width.
 
I agree with Vettels penalty, but Why was Alonso fighting for a gap that wasnt there anyway?...
 
MrMelancholy15
Oh, how different the championship would be... Dammit, Alonso, be a retard for once!
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As I saw him leave the track I was praying for his rear tyre to dip into the gravel :D but as soon as he left the track he straightened the thing up, stayed calm and rejoined very nicely so well done Alonso. I couldn't believe he was whinging after the race "Even with the penalty Vettel DNF so it's not really punishment" :rolleyes:
 
MUSC4EVER
I agree with Vettels penalty, but Why was Alonso fighting for a gap that wasnt there anyway?...
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There was a gap but Vettel intentionally, or unintentionally, 'closed the door' on him.

Gap:


Closing gap:
 
Peasantslayer
I couldn't believe he was whinging after the race "Even with the penalty Vettel DNF so it's not really punishment" :rolleyes:
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You've completely misinterpreted that.

He was saying, when asked whether he thought Vettel's punishment was fair, that it's fairly irrelevant, since he retired anyway. He wasn't moaning that it wasn't a good enough punishment given that it didn't affect Vettel's race as much as a retirement.
 
homeforsummer
You've completely misinterpreted that.

He was saying, when asked whether he thought Vettel's punishment was fair, that it's fairly irrelevant, since he retired anyway. He wasn't moaning that it wasn't a good enough punishment given that it didn't affect Vettel's race as much as a retirement.
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Ok I must have misinterpreted, he just looked quite miserable when he said it.
 
http://en.espnf1.com/italy/motorsport/story/88675.html

Sutton's Column on the Italian Grand Prix. The last two commented pictures reveal two very different mindsets.

I'd say Alonso's good moment makes life easy for him, so not much to say there. But ... Sutton's description of the press needing 3 Mclaren team shots just to have Hamilton doing anything "celebratory" and even then all they got was two fingers pointing at them is ... for lack of a better word ... significant.
 
Hun200kmh
I'd say Alonso's good moment makes life easy for him, so not much to say there. But ... Sutton's description of the press needing 3 Mclaren team shots just to have Hamilton doing anything "celebratory" and even then all they got was two fingers pointing at them is ... for lack of a better word ... significant.
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For all we know he could just do the spoiled brat because he wants a bigger pay check, like Crisitiano Ronaldo is doing in Real atm.

I still dont believe that Hamilton would go to Mercedes, I dont see the point really. He wants to be world champion, Mercedes definitely can't offer him that atm. For me he's trying to get a better salary.

We'll see I guess.
 
dhandeh
(Senna quote)
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If the gap works for you, you're brilliant. If the gap fails to work out for you, call the other guy a moron.

homeforsummer
He wasn't moaning that it wasn't a good enough punishment given that it didn't affect Vettel's race as much as a retirement.
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In other news, Vanwall has been ordered by the FIA to give up their 1958 Constructor's Championship title to Ferrari, since they were running 2.5-liter engines instead of the 2.4-liter engines that are required today.
 
Scary^^. Pupik, don't scare me like that!


In seriousness, Alonso complains at least 10x more often than Vettel. Hehem, GO VETTEL! VETTEL for 3 in a row!


Reference to signature:

"Red Bull-Fix Your Alternators Please, You Idiots"
 
MrMelancholy15
Reference to signature:

"Renault-Fix Your Alternators Please, You Idiots"
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Fixed :). Red Bull are just the customer.

Cyril Dumont
We changed the alternator on Sebastian’s car yesterday, but unfortunately we had the same failure in today’s race. We are still looking into why this happened, but we do know that even though the alternator was being operated entirely within the prescribed range, the part itself overheated and shut off the power supply. We have to apologise to Red Bull Racing as clearly this has hurt us in the Championship. We have no option, but to sort it out and it will still be a priority before Singapore.
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The point remains valid.

"... remains a priority before Singapore?"

^^ Sounds like they should just give Alonso the trophy now. I guess the French have given up, again. :indiff:
 
MrMelancholy15
The point remains valid.

"... remains a priority before Singapore?"

^^ Sounds like they should just give Alonso the trophy now. I guess the French have given up, again. :indiff:
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Yeah, just nit picking.

Hard to understand how something so simple (F1 standards) can be causing so many problems. I guess there is something in the way Red Bull have the system set up that is contributing, since none of the other Renault-supplied teams are having the same issue
 
Could it be, (SPECULATION) that the team took air away from the motor to simply add rear downforce?


The engine inlets produce drag & aren't entirely beneficial to the aerodynamic downforce. They are in the center of the car, too, meaning that it would provide greater effect than a front/rear wing element. (Pushing one side down is less efficient than pushing the center down.)

/endspeculation.

I hope they fix it, either way.
 
Barra333
Yeah, just nit picking.

Hard to understand how something so simple (F1 standards) can be causing so many problems. I guess there is something in the way Red Bull have the system set up that is contributing, since none of the other Renault-supplied teams are having the same issue
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I think Grosjean had the same problem in Valencia, that race should have been a 1-2 for Renault powered cars.
 
MrMelancholy15
Could it be, (SPECULATION) that the team took air away from the motor to simply add rear downforce?


The engine inlets produce drag & aren't entirely beneficial to the aerodynamic downforce. They are in the center of the car, too, meaning that it would provide greater effect than a front/rear wing element. (Pushing one side down is less efficient than pushing the center down.)

/endspeculation.

I hope they fix it, either way.
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Add downforce to a car that had the slowest straight line performance of all front runners, on the lowest downforce circuit of the season.

Sounds legit.
 
About Alonso-Vettel:
(sorry... been away, only got to see it now...)

This is racing. So:
1 - You have to take reasonable chances and go for the possibility of success in a gap. It is called overtaking, and usually occurs braking into a corner, but can happen elsewhere.
2 - You must always leave enough room when you have someone beside you. Be it on the inside or outside of the track, the racing line, on a corner or straight.

About Senna, and for perspective, he gave that #1 excuse after giving Prost some payback in Suzuka (if I recall correctly) where he never even tried to brake or make T1 IMO.

Alonso had every right and obligation as a racing driver to take this reasonable chance. And he tried more than once until he committed to it and got half along side.

Vettel had every right and obligation to defend to a limit (allowing one car width), or somehow prevent Alonso from getting there in the first place.

Without taking "reasonable chances", not even classic passing, out braking on the inside into a corner would happen. Moving off the racing line so that you're on it when the apex comes? Into a gap that will close when the other guy goes for the apex and you're still there, maybe even still just half a car behind? Surely there will always be contact. But actually no, there isn't. Because no one "owns" the racing line or has any "right of way".

There are a million racing moments when different racing lines intersect. It's up to the drivers to take it to the very limit, but ultimately allow enough room to avoid colliding or going off track when it happens. Alonso did that, Vettel didn't.

Vettel driving himself off the road in the previous incident because he "thought" Alonso was gonna keep running him wide was just as much his mistake as it was doing the actual pushing himself this time round, not leaving enough room for a car that was already half way beside him.

As Webber said in Turkey 2010: "he messed up". Fair penalty IMO.
 
Mike Rotch
Add downforce to a car that had the slowest straight line performance of all front runners, on the lowest downforce circuit of the season.

Sounds legit.
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:lol: I don't think that they're allowed to change the cars THAT often. However, they've been having problems with the alternator all season long, and, asides from maybe one race, the alternator's been the only problem in what has still been a stellar season for Vettel. As people said, though, Renault engines aren't having the problems. Only Red Bull Renault is having the problem. If they were taking air away from the alternator for downforce AND/OR aerodynamic efficiency, it could cause such a problem. I'm not saying that I have inside knowledge, I'm speculating.


However, yes, at Monza, aerodynamic efficiency and tire size is key.
 
MrMelancholy15
:lol: I don't think that they're allowed to change the cars THAT often. However, they've been having problems with the alternator all season long, and, asides from maybe one race, the alternator's been the only problem in what has still been a stellar season for Vettel. As people said, though, Renault engines aren't having the problems. Only Red Bull Renault is having the problem. If they were taking air away from the alternator for downforce AND/OR aerodynamic efficiency, it could cause such a problem. I'm not saying that I have inside knowledge, I'm speculating.


However, yes, at Monza, aerodynamic efficiency and tire size is key.
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The commentators said this particular failure could come also because of the way the alternator is placed on the car. Maybe it's at a place where it's heating more than in the lotus/williams or something like that.

Renault officialy apologized for it so they recon it's also part of there job to make sure the alternor wont break.
 
RX-7_FD3S
The commentators said this particular failure could come also because of the way the alternator is placed on the car. Maybe it's at a place where it's heating more than in the lotus/williams or something like that.

Renault officialy apologized for it so they recon it's also part of there job to make sure the alternor wont break.
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102454

Initial investigations came to the conclusion that low speed corners were causing the problem due to the low RPM.

They have developed and tested an alternative, which ran in practice at Spa I believe. They haven't found problems with this one. I'm guessing they will test this one once again in practice at Singapore and if all goes well it's problem solved.
 

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