2012 Santander Italian Grand Prix

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prisonermonkeys
"Defending his position from a faster car" is not an excuse. The rules dictate that Vettel must leave a car's width of space on the outside of the corner so as to allow the attacking driver enough room to stay on the circuit.
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I agree on that, but I see Alonso forcing his way next to Vettel..

niky
The racing line for that corner happens to be a tight line that allows you to maximize the exit. Vettel was taking the racing line (middle of the track) then moves over to the outside long before the drivers normally do it.

There's closing a door, and there's slamming in someone's face when their foot is through. This was undoubtedly the latter.
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I say it's closing a forced door.. Ofcourse Vettel wasn't going to give much room, but I still think he can do that, you can't just play sitting duck everytime..
 
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Carlos
I agree on that, but I see Alonso forcing his way next to Vettel..
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Yes, but what's wrong with that? He squeezed his way into a gap that was big enough, which is totally fair.
 
Peter.
Yes, but what's wrong with that? He squeezed his way into a gap that was big enough, which is totally fair.
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Ofcourse, but Vettel had a different line than Alonso and I think Vettel is allowed to keep that line, Alonso makes the first move so it's at his risc, if Vettel freezes his steering angle (wich he kinda did) at that moment he didn't
forced Alonso off-track in my eyes..

I like clean racing, but I think these things can and should happen. It's good for the race and let the boys play it out on track and test their skills, all these rules, blehg.
 
It's just telling that Alonso and Webber and Alonso and (can't remember this year's one from last week...Kimi?) can pass each other through Eau Rouge no problem, but SV can't be trusted to not wedge someone onto the grass in a corner with multiple racing lines.
 
I think that was Kimi and MS last weekend. If you look at how Webber did it on Alonso, you see Alonso also steering into Webber, if Webber didn't totally go over the cerbs there....
 
prisonermonkeys
Which is acceptable. Forcing a driver off the circuit is not.
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No no, Alonso was the forcing one :D Who was the Force India driver that collided with Senna? The FI driver did what Vettel tried on Alonso.. That's what I mean with when he freezes his steeringwheel..
 
Carlos
No no, Alonso was the forcing one :D Who was the Force India driver that collided with Senna? The FI driver did what Vettel tried on Alonso.. That's what I mean with when he freezes his steeringwheel..
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You mean the di Resta incident? He deserved a penalty as well. I don't know what you mean by freezing his steering wheel, but he tried to squeeze out Senna, under braking, while Senna was interlocking wheels with him, and in a gap that didn't have to disappear. It ended up with Senna being forced off the road in a similar fashion to Alonso.
 
To be honest, surprised that there was no penalty for that for Di Resta, and no penalty for an unsafe rejoining for Senna (nearly causing a collision).

If you "freeze your steering" and plow straight into someone? That's a penalty. The rules don't allow you to use the whole track. If there's another car beside you, that one car width minimum is law.
 
I'd like to see Vettel's in-car footage of the incident (and possibly next to the same corner when taken normally). It should then be clear what he was trying to do and what he wasn't. From what I saw so far - he probably didn't try hard enough not to let his car drift wider. Stewards, though, should've had access to telemetry and could've done the comparison before ruling on the matter.
 
From the onboards I saw during the race, Vettel's tires were already overlapping Alonso's, and Alonso had two tires on the grass.
 
niky
From the onboards I saw during the race, Vettel's tires were already overlapping Alonso's, and Alonso had two tires on the grass.
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Alonso's front tires were almost up to Vettel's front tires, with all four corners still on the pavement. Then Alonso saw that Vettel isn't moving and decided to go onto the grass (instead of letting go off the gas to equalize the speed). Not sure it was the best move out of the two.
 
Alonso doesn't get on the grass spontaneously. Vettel kept drifting into him, pushing him off.

At first, I thought it was merely typical histrionics, Alonso shopping for a penalty. Changed my mind after the replay.
 
niky
Alonso doesn't get on the grass spontaneously. Vettel kept drifting into him, pushing him off.
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Oh, I agree. Vettel should've moved. But given that he didn't, Alonso had two choices and chose to go on the grass instead of letting off the gas a hair (so that his RF tire was still just behind Vettel's LF. I'm not sure it was the best choice, but I could be convinced that it was.

UPD: youtube with cockpit view (of the outside car) comparison, starts at 0:21


UPD2: Vettel onboard
 
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Thanks for posting those.
- in the 2011 video, Vettel didn't even need to leave the track. There was more than a car width of road there for him.
- in the 2012 version, he had absolutely no need to run Alonso out of road. He could have quite easily left at least a car and a half if he put on a tiny bit more lock.

The way I see it, Alonso had two choices... go off-roading, or interlock wheels with Vettel, which mayprobably would have got very messy. Backing out of it should not need to be an option since there was plenty of racing room there for Vettel to allow him.
 
The picture at 38 seconds in the top vid says it all. Alonso was further alongside and had half as much room given to him compared to 2011.
 
Vettel was a bit naughty, he shouldn't have done it to that extreme and the penalty was fair. It tends to look worse than last years incident as Alonso went completely off track, there was still enough space for him to keep two wheels on the hard stuff though, just like Vettel did.
 
Great race!

Congrats to LH, SP and FA, also well done to KR (has yet to win a race but 3rd in the points!).
Unfortunate for JB, as he was looking at a 2nd or 3rd (possible challenge from Perez), JB may even have had a chance of challenging for 1st.
Also unfortunate for SB. (regarding penalty) I think the punishment was fair but at the same time can appreciate the disappointment and frustration felt by his fans, as had it had been last year he probably would have gotten away with it.

Have to say i was also impressed with PM's speed.. but at the end of the day, it's the points that matter most, so well done to BS. 👍
 
niky
To be honest, surprised that there was no penalty for that for Di Resta, and no penalty for an unsafe rejoining for Senna (nearly causing a collision).

If you "freeze your steering" and plow straight into someone? That's a penalty. The rules don't allow you to use the whole track. If there's another car beside you, that one car width minimum is law.
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It was a very close one in my opinion, you could argue to Senna was perhaps too late to try a move like that and Di Resta was already looking at the apex.
 
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A few things:


  1. I respect Sebastian Vettel for fighting
  2. I'd like to know what's with the alternators
  3. What do you think is the most probable solution?
  4. What do you think will happen (is this sort of like a repeat of the above question?)
  5. What was Button's DNF caused by? Does anyone know?

Thanks.


With regards to the drive-through, here's hoping that they keep up with the standards shown at Monza. Penalties definitely make for close racing. Yeah. :indiff:
 
Hamilton said "I was cruising for the last 20 laps. I knew that Felipe (Massa) was going slower than me, then I heard that Fernando (Alonso) had passed him and was pushing, so I started to match his time. Then I heard that Sergio was catching me by a second a lap, so over the last four I started pushing a little more just to maintain the gap." and with with what's happened in the last few races Mclaren are starting to look very strong on a variety of circuit types, can't wait for Singapore.
 
prisonermonkeys
That changes nothing. In order to keep the car on the circuit, Alonso would have had to adjust his line mid-corner, which would have meant swerving at Vettel.
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It does not, but you were saying it as if Vettel got a penalty only because of that.

MrMelancholy15
Oh, how different the championship would be... Dammit, Alonso, be a retard for once!
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Honestly, I'm surprised that Alonso went for a gap like that. He should know better.
 
I've always thought of Kimi as a sort of go for broke kind of driver, either winning or retiring, but by checking his history I see now that I am completely wrong. He has finished the race the last 21 times and have only six retirements in the last four seasons he has taken part in (65 races, 2007-09, 2012).

Compare that to Alonso for instance who has eight retirements and Button who has 14 during the same period.
 

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