2013 Airtel Indian Grand Prix

[Dennisch]

No, the blame is on you for not paying attention to what you are posting. Don't blame the video if you linked it and posted it here.

No. The blame is on you for responding to him.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Vettel reprimanded and Red Bull fined 25,000 Euro over his post-race donuts. Full story soon.

So for being human and doing something that they have to pull at practically every demo, got him fined. Oh FIA you're so stupid.

 

[Ardius]

The team got fined, not Vettel and the stewards decision mentions nothing about doughnuts or any kind of driving standards or safety. All it mentions is the Parc Ferme regulations.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What link is there between doing a run on older medium tyres and having a longer stint on race day? Only the tyres you set your fastest lap on are relevant for the race if you have new sets spare, as Vettel did.

Vettel set his fastest time on the soft tyres. He did this at the start of Q3.

His Q2 lap was also good enough to get him pole and that was on softs as well, his Medium tire lap in Q1 wasn't as good as Webber and other info as I explained leads me to believe it wouldn't have been good enough.

Had Vettel done a run on old mediums at the start of Q3, he would have ran a set of new softs afterwards anyway in order to get pole position. Had he opted to start on mediums, he would have ran a new set instead of, not in addition to the new softs. At no point is the used set of mediums relevant unless he was setting a 'banker' lap. But why set a banker lap on an old set of tyres if a) it's not going to be good enough for pole and b) you will have a worn set of tyres at the start of the race which will result in a poor first stint.

I said this already, pay attention. Secondly it's quite simple you either wait it out and set a lap to the very end to keep the tires as fresh as possible for the start of the first stint.

I can fully understand him using an old set for Q2 because the car was fast enough to get through, and it wasn't worth wasting a new set.

Yes I agree with that.

Again you are not making it clear why using older tyres at the start of Q3 is an advantage. With the huge pace advantage and the relatively low track evolution that happens within 10 minutes, why wait to set a time on the new set?

How am I not, it is better to wait for one of the reasons you spell out hardly any track evolution. Also since Vettel knew he could pull off the fastest lap already due to his Q2 being better than the best Q3 from his opposition. Once again you wait, because those tires are the same tires you start the race with, so it's ideal to make sure they have life on them. Thus you set an early time and then sit it out as we saw Vettel do a few races ago, or you run an older set of tires (since at that point you only have six sets) to have a placeholder, then switch over toward the end to run one or two finalizing laps for P1 bid.

Webber made his fastest Q3 lap on a new set of medium tyres IIRC. Vettel would have easily matched him on a new set of mediums too. Vettel decided at the start of Q3 to set a lap on the new softs as this was his strategy for the race. Are you suggesting he might have attempted a run on new mediums at the end of Q3 (After already using the new softs), and this would have hurt his race strategy because he had used 2 new sets?

Never said Vettel wouldn't, I said an had Vettel pegged to easily beat match mark and beat him. I never once said he'd do a run on mediums at the end of Q3 or implied it, not sure where you're getting that from.

Saidur_Ali isn't the only one who can't understand what you are talking about, because you don't seem to be making a whole lot of sense. I feel like there is some key information or detail that you are leaving out (Possibly how tyres can be put through a heat cycle and conditioned for a race in order to improve durability?).

Yeah Ali isn't you too can't, so that makes two. Your verbose would suggest that you might be implying more though that hasn't been seen. You and I never tend to agree on matters of F1, that just the nature of the beast.

 

[chromatic9]

Pleased there were more people in the stands for the race, they gave the drivers a good reception and it made for a decent memory for Vettel. The lad deserves it.

Well done Vettel. Top doughnuts.

I said a few years ago Grosjean would become a classic F1 driver and he's certainly doing well now.

 

[Zuel]

Why pull Webber out of the race? Why does his car and ONLY his car have so much trouble?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think Mercedes would have preferred to have the two extra points that they lost due to Lewis being overtaken by Sergio.

I'm sure any team would have.

They knew how fast Felipe was, Nico struggled to overtake him but managed to jump him by pitting a lap earlier, luxury Lewis didn't have given he was second in team and pitted next lap, same as Felipe. If they tyre saved, earlier in his last stint, he potentially could have got Felipe later on or kept ahead of Sergio at least.

So you agree that Lewis wasted his tires chasing and racing Massa, not sure what the discrepancy is then. Other than to just disagree because you can.

I don't think it is anything to do with language gap, just that you don't understand what happened in qualifying and what you are suggesting seems quite ludicrous. People would have done Q3 qualifying runs with new tyres. You suggested Vettel would be at a disadvantage as he would be forced to use a used tyre for his fast lap even when he had plenty of new tyres available to him. Why would any team want to qualify on used tyres when they enough new tyres to qualify and race with.

Once again teams did do this, it's not ludicrous to ask if RBR might have started Q3 on an old set of softs even then switched over to a new set mid way through Q3 or the end of Q3. Not sure why it's crazy that they'd try to save as much life as possible to extend their first stint on race day since they are the same set.

Not only would it compromise their grid position but also start of the race compared to their competitors. It is unlikely teams would want to sabotage their drivers. If they are forced to use an old set then it is understandable but usually if that is the case, they don't bother going out as you are unlikely to have enough pace to beat others if you were forced to use more tyres due to performance reasons.

How would it compromise their quali? He still would have got P1 from the perspective I'm suggesting. Lewis used an old set and so did Nico, unless Skysports is lying or misinformed.

You said Vettel would not have been able to get pole with Mediums because he only would be about one to tenths faster than Webber. Then I mentioned being two tenths ahead of Webber would have been enough to get pole, you then mentioned some strange thing about wear on tyres would mean, it would be only allowed him to go half a tenth or a tenth faster than Webber.

I said if he had to use older tires it would probably be less. I said if he got in to the 24.8 which is two tenths more than 25.0 it would have come down to beating Nico by a few hundredths. I guess I'm looking at significant figures different than you, I was generalizing it and not going from the .057 or .047 whatever it was to .857 or .847 so that's my fault for generalizing.

Why pull Webber out of the race? Why does his car and ONLY his car have so much trouble?

We've been over this before and it has been documented why you are wrong, go read other threads. Also you might wanna see how alternators work and the regulations.

Webber is on his eight engine, the final engine thus if the alternator completely broke apart it would have probably started a fire and thus caused a ninth engine. Which means that RBR would have to pay a fine and Mark would have still not been able to finish.

 

[Whodoyouthink]

The fine is incredibly stupid, but it's practically a formality. We are talking about Red Bull here. They can afford to forfeit what it [apparently] costs for a steering wheel, and unless Vettel decides to do a donut every remaining race from here on out, or really do anything reprimand-worthy, then it barely affects anything.

I got a laugh out of Kimi actually setting fastest lap. From the broadcast we hear Vettel's radio about Kimi having fresh tires and how he was about to destroy his fastest lap, which I thought was a joke. Then a few seconds later it comes up. Priceless really. I guess that's the only reason why he came in when he did, to set the fastest lap.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You mean, like champagne spraying?

It hasn't been champagne for years now. It's all about that Coke, Gatorade or Powerade spray.

 

[JGreens]

We are talking about Red Bull here. They can afford to forfeit what it [apparently] costs for a steering wheel, and unless Vettel decides to do a donut every remaining race from here on out, or really do anything reprimand-worthy, then it barely affects anything.

Exactly. The amount they pour in compared to other teams is ridiculous really. But hey buying trophies works for Man City etc, so why not? You can't buy class! 👍

FIA fine for the parc ferme regs, a bit pointless really, ten place grid penalty next race would of been more suitable - Brundle agrees as well:
Martin Brundle ‏@MBrundleF1 5h
For €25000 fine Vettel donuts are an absolute bargain. So satisfying to do +images will define the season. A 10 place grid drop more fun )

 

[Samus]

Why pull Webber out of the race? Why does his car and ONLY his car have so much trouble?

Selective memory as usual, Vettel has had plenty of mechanical issues and they pulled him off to prevent an engine being destroyed. Unless you think they did it on purpose because they would rather a DNF than a 1-2?

 

[Seismica]

Yeah Ali isn't you too can't, so that makes two. Your verbose would suggest that you might be implying more though that hasn't been seen. You and I never tend to agree on matters of F1, that just the nature of the beast.

No I think Saidur_Ali was pretty clear, your argument just went a little fuzzy here. It seems to go off in a tangent to your point, or is just worded ambiguously.

I had to go back to page 2 to get the context for your argument. I just don't get how you went from 'Vettel would not have got pole with a new set of mediums' to 'Using an older set of tyres in Q3 will make it more likely to get a longer first stint come race day'.

For the record I agree with your initial argument, I do not think Vettel would have been on pole had he used the medium tyres. I just think after that, your posts weren't making much sense, and Saidur_Ali isn't the only one to think that. I just wanted to jump to Saidur_Ali's defence.

The important factor was whether Vettel ran a new set of either the soft or the medium, and that's that. I don't see how the argument got so convoluted, talking about stint length etc. because everybody is in the top 10 is in the same boat in that respect, unless they don't set a time.

 

[daan]

You and others were very quick to point out how wrong I was back in Monaco, and now here you are, proclaiming it was as obvious as I saw it back then...how fake.

Kindly provide a quote where I said that.

Tell you what, take the blame to the Lotus moron who aired that over the radio to millions of younger viewers. Not my words.

I didn't hear it over the air, but I'm sure it would have been beeped as it was in the youtube video.

The issue here is that you linked to a page that included a profanity (in the title of said youtube video) and that is expressly forbidden by the AUP. I can just make sure I hand out infractions to you in future if you prefer, instead of an in thread warning.

 

[Pupik]

It hasn't been champagne for years now. It's all about that Coke, Gatorade or Powerade spray.

Yeah, but that's mostly NASCAR. And of course, Indy's famous milk. NASCAR makes a "tradition" out of anything it's (accidentally / forcefully done at the will of sponsors / FansBeLikingIt!) done twice.

But Dan Gurney brought the wasted champagne idea to The Continent, so the story goes.

 

[dsgerbc]

So for being human and doing something

No, the fine is for trying to appear human. Robots should always get fines for trying that.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No I think Saidur_Ali was pretty clear, your argument just went a little fuzzy here. It seems to go off in a tangent to your point, or is just worded ambiguously.

I had to go back to page 2 to get the context for your argument. I just don't get how you went from 'Vettel would not have got pole with a new set of mediums' to 'Using an older set of tyres in Q3 will make it more likely to get a longer first stint come race day'.

Because I really think Nico would have had enough even if by a tiny margin. I went there based on what seemed as Saidur not knowing or realizing that you must use the same set of tires you set your qualifying time with in Q3.

For the record I agree with your initial argument, I do not think Vettel would have been on pole had he used the medium tyres. I just think after that, your posts weren't making much sense, and Saidur_Ali isn't the only one to think that. I just wanted to jump to Saidur_Ali's defence.

That's fine to jump to his defense but I have a feeling he really didn't pay attention to all sessions even the GP because of question asked after that were well broadcast. The fact that it was said people used old tires in certain parts of Quali, thus I found it hard to see why it was outlandish. My issue was more to do with someone telling me vaguely that I'm crazy when I know what I saw and heard.

The important factor was whether Vettel ran a new set of either the soft or the medium, and that's that. I don't see how the argument got so convoluted, talking about stint length etc. because everybody is in the top 10 is in the same boat in that respect, unless they don't set a time.

Well unless you don't set a time or you run a different compound. Mark obviously ran further on old mediums then Vettel on old softs etc.

No, the fine is for trying to appear human. Robots should always get fines for trying that.

True, Doctor Who wouldn't stand for such things, so why should the FIA

Yeah, but that's mostly NASCAR. And of course, Indy's famous milk. NASCAR makes a "tradition" out of anything it's (accidentally / forcefully done at the will of sponsors / FansBeLikingIt!) done twice.

But Dan Gurney brought the wasted champagne idea to The Continent, so the story goes.

Yeah I heard that, sadly it has been destroyed. I think I will go run laps in the parking lot right now, pretend to win a fictional race (against myself) and spray coke everywhere. Thanks NASCAR, thanks...

 

[Peasantslayer]

Selective memory as usual, Vettel has had plenty of mechanical issues and they pulled him off to prevent an engine being destroyed. Unless you think they did it on purpose because they would rather a DNF than a 1-2?

3 DNFs in 4 races, I think Webber has worse luck because Vettel gets the best mechanics/more attention.

 

[Alex.]

3 DNFs in 4 races, I think Webber has worse luck because Vettel gets the best mechanics/more attention.

I also think they were happy to leave Vettel out in similar amounts of danger, purely so he could get the WDC over with. Being able to call yourselves WDC and constructors champions an extra week earlier than Abu Dhabi is great for marketing and the team reputation.

 

[Samus]

3 DNFs in 4 races, I think Webber has worse luck because Vettel gets the best mechanics/more attention.

Sorry but that is a ridiculous suggestion. Do you seriously think Red Bull purposely hires incompetent mechanics on Webber's side of the garage, that don't know how to fit alternators or KERS systems? Or they fit dodgy ones?

Luck is luck. Sometimes it runs one way, sometimes the other.

Vettel has had one mechanical DNF this year (Britain), Webber two, yesterday and Singapore. Korea was due to crash damage and China was a wheel falling off, because of those damn incompetent mechanics on his side of the garage I'm sure.

In 2012 Vettel had one, Europe, Webber had one, USA.
In 2011 neither had a mechanical retirement.
In 2010 Vettel had two, Webber had none.

Yes there are other non-race ending issues that both have had but I don't have the time to tally those all up, I'm sure they're equally close though.

It's just luck and I'm pretty sure the mechanics would be offended at your suggestion it's their incompetence and poor attention that causes Webber to have more mechanical failures, when that isn't even the case anyway.

I mean way down the grid Bianchi has had two mechanical retirements, Chilton none. Is that the same thing, Chilton having better mechanics? No, it's luck/run of the green.

I also think they were happy to leave Vettel out in similar amounts of danger, purely so he could get the WDC over with. Being able to call yourselves WDC and constructors champions an extra week earlier than Abu Dhabi is great for marketing and the team reputation.

They left Vettel out because there was nothing actually wrong with the car, everything they did was a precaution in the hope the same thing didn't happen that happened on Webber's car, which did actually have a failure.

 

[Peasantslayer]

Sorry but that is a ridiculous suggestion. Do you seriously think Red Bull purposely hires incompetent mechanics on Webber's side of the garage, that don't know how to fit alternators or KERS systems? Or they fit dodgy ones?

Luck is luck. Sometimes it runs one way, sometimes the other.

Vettel has had one mechanical DNF this year (Britain), Webber two, yesterday and Singapore. Korea was due to crash damage and China was a wheel falling off, because of those damn incompetent mechanics on his side of the garage I'm sure.

In 2012 Vettel had one, Europe, Webber had one, USA.
In 2011 neither had a mechanical retirement.
In 2010 Vettel had two, Webber had none.

Yes there are other non-race ending issues that both have had but I don't have the time to tally those all up, I'm sure they're equally close though.

It's just luck and I'm pretty sure the mechanics would be offended at your suggestion it's their incompetence and poor attention that causes Webber to have more mechanical failures, when that isn't even the case anyway.

I mean way down the grid Bianchi has had two mechanical retirements, Chilton none. Is that the same thing, Chilton having better mechanics? No, it's luck/run of the green.



They left Vettel out because there was nothing actually wrong with the car, everything they did was a precaution in the hope the same thing didn't happen that happened on Webber's car, which did actually have a failure.

Not incompotent I didn't say that, I'm just suggesting Vettel has better/more experienced mechanics or more attention paid to his car. Why wouldn't they give Vettel better treatment? He's a better driver than Webber and capable of bringing home more points.

 

[daan]

Still no apologies then? For the guy that CALLED IT RIGHT ON THE MONEY back in Monaco? None?

By which time Seb was already 21 points clear of 2nd place? You're quite the mystic Meg.

Quick to forget all the jokes directed at my comment eh? Months later, who was proved correct? Me. You and others were very quick to point out how wrong I was back in Monaco, and now here you are, proclaiming it was as obvious as I saw it back then...how fake.

Kindly provide a quote where I said that.

You want me to search through 40+ pages of discussion just for you to come up with another excuse? Nah, you can stick with your selective memory for all I care.

All I'll add to that is that I never even posted in the Monaco Grand Prix thread.

You can post all the idiotic things you want, (and you have taken that to a whole new level) but as soon as you start making things up, the ground (and the ability to post) get taken away from you.

 

[Alex.]

If whoever it was that disagreed posted 'JGreens, you were actually right' would it make your day significantly better?

 

[Samus]

Not incompotent I didn't say that, I'm just suggesting Vettel has better/more experienced mechanics or more attention paid to his car. Why wouldn't they give Vettel better treatment? He's a better driver than Webber and capable of bringing home more points.

Why do you think Red Bull wouldn't be able to hire enough mechanics from around the world to ensure both cars are kept to the same standard? Do you think good mechanics are in that short supply?

Any team would be mad not to give each car the same treatment in terms of maintenance and associated tasks. Plus I've already shown you the theory that Webber has more issues is simply not true.

 

[Ardius]

I still can't believe how impressive Grosjean h as been lately. I like a lot of people wrote him off a year ago, said Lotus should get rid of him as a liability but fair play to him, he's a different driver this year. Really impressed.

Grosjean has always had the speed, just lacked the consistencey and has had really questionable wheel to wheel etiquette.

He's definitely a lot better this season in terms of keeping away from other cars but he's still a little inconsistent with the speed. Raikkonen has still vastly out-raced him again this season but certainly Grosjean has secured his place in F1 for a while.

If Grosjean can find his speed a little more consistently then he is WDC material. But otherwise he's like a less popular Jean Alesi. That said Hulkenburg has yet to have a season where he hasn't spent half of it struggling, be it his or the team's fault. So it will be very interesting to watch Grosjean vs. Hulk if they do hire him next season at Lotus.

 

[BHRxRacer]

Star of the day is definitely Grosjean. Again. Great job by Perez, Massa and Rosberg too. Shame about Webber, as usual. I'd give Vettel thumbs up for doing doughnuts but he probably did it because he knows he can get away with anything. Can he sit at home until 2014? Or give his car to someone else?. The new forum sucks. 'The hell is it doing to my typing? And why can't I multiquote? There it just fixed itself.

Just ignore him Alex, there is plenty wrong with that one. I'm a Lewis fan but I'd say Vettel is close to the raw pace of Hamilton.

Do you ever get tired of contradicting yourself in a single sentence? The desperation is hilarious

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Do you ever get tired of contradicting yourself in a single sentence? The desperation is hilarious

Care to elaborate how I'm contradicting myself? Or are you trying to cast stones because anytime we butt heads you are not the winning party? Either way I would love to see why you are irritated with me now on this subject.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Sniff Petrol found out the exact reason why Vettel was reprimanded.

http://sniffpetrol.com/2013/10/29/title-winners-titting-about-telling-off/

 

[Peasantslayer]

Why do you think Red Bull wouldn't be able to hire enough mechanics from around the world to ensure both cars are kept to the same standard? Do you think good mechanics are in that short supply?

Any team would be mad not to give each car the same treatment in terms of maintenance and associated tasks. Plus I've already shown you the theory that Webber has more issues is simply not true.

I found this

 

[Hun200kmh]

LOL that's funny! (ahem, not for Mark)

 

[Samus]

Multi 21
Grid Penalty
Front wing x 2
Oil leak (Caused by a Force India)
Strategy

None of those have anything to do with reliabilty/mechanics ability that you're talking about. You would also need a Vettel chart for true comparison. He has had his fair share of KERS failures and alternator issues.