2013 Airtel Indian Grand Prix

[Pagey279]

Anyways, surprised that Alonso was so far off. Did Ferrari mess up his strategy? (Didn't see the race as I couldn't stay up.)

I'm pretty sure he pitted very early just like Vettel did. But unlike Vettel he just couldn't work his way through the traffic.

 

[Samus]

According to my religion I am not supposed to listen to the so called "psychics". So I just look at his babble and laugh.


Anyways, surprised that Alonso was so far off. Did Ferrari mess up his strategy? (Didn't see the race as I couldn't stay up.)

He had contact at the start with Webber and Button which as well as breaking his wing damaged the handling of his car.

 

[Blitz24]

He had contact at the start with Webber and Button which as well as breaking his wing damaged the handling of his car.

That would do it then. Would murder the car in traffic (and pretty much anywhere else).

 

[Samus]

He changed the wing (costing him time) but afterwards he still said the handling was off on right hand turns, which there is a lot of in India.

Even without that though I doubt he'd have made the podium, the Ferrari didn't quite have the pace.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

He changed the wing (costing him time) but afterwards he still said the handling was off on right hand turns, which there is a lot of in India.

Even without that though I doubt he'd have made the podium, the Ferrari didn't quite have the pace.

He might have, Felipe finished fourth after all and during most of the weekend Alonso was faster. However, I have to agree with you though. Grosjean and Nico were still faster most of the weekend compared to Alonso. So if it didn't happen, I'd say he be where Massa ended up possibly.

 

[Samus]

I forgot he was fourth but on a different strategy remember, Alonso was on the same strategy as Webber. We'll never know.

I still can't believe how impressive Grosjean has been lately. I like a lot of people wrote him off a year ago, said Lotus should get rid of him as a liability but fair play to him, he's a different driver this year. Really impressed.

By the way did anyone else notice the clumsy mistake Chilton made at the start that VDG was moaning about? Really sloppy, I can see why he's annoyed as it was also Max that caused the Japan crash.

 

[SpeedyishOlly]

I still can't believe how impressive Grosjean has been lately. I like a lot of people wrote him off a year ago, said Lotus should get rid of him as a liability but fair play to him, he's a different driver this year. Really impressed.

He was great, he did show speed at first but just made a few rookie errors, which he seems to have learned from, I think and hope he may be a future world champion. It's been a while since there was a good french driver.

 

[wajdi1977]

First, I never was a Schumacher fan.
Yes, Schumacher was dominant too, but there's a huge difference. When Micheal went to Ferrari, Ferrari was a team that could only win if everyone else wouldn't finish the race. Schumi made Ferrari to the team they are today and that was a long and hard way that included a lot of work. Seb went to RBR and already got the quickest car and didn't had to put any work into it.

It is strange, but the RB and Newy are in the F1 from 2005 and they have won their first F1 race ever in the 2009 just when Vettel joined the team! it is really a strange coincidence !

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I forgot he was fourth but on a different strategy remember, Alonso was on the same strategy as Webber. We'll never know.

I still can't believe how impressive Grosjean has been lately. I like a lot of people wrote him off a year ago, said Lotus should get rid of him as a liability but fair play to him, he's a different driver this year. Really impressed.

By the way did anyone else notice the clumsy mistake Chilton made at the start that VDG was moaning about? Really sloppy, I can see why he's annoyed as it was also Max that caused the Japan crash.

This is true.

 

[Samus]

It is strange, but the RB and Newy are in the F1 from 2005 and they have won their first F1 race ever in the 2009 just when Vettel joined the team! it is really a strange coincidence !

A coincidence, yes. Most of it was down to the radical rule changes that year which they've then built on the following years. That still doesn't change the fact Seb had no idea he was walking into a winning team though.

 

[lunarwolf]

congrats to Vettel, totally deserved. the worrying thing is that he keeps on improving. rinse and repeat for 2014? I am not sure any driver joining RBR could beat him tbh. If Seb went to another team like Mercedes or Ferrari then maybe he could get beaten, but I am not so sure. he's been almost perfect.

driver of the day was RG. I still can't believe he finished 3rd

Kimi was a total douche. almost collides w/ teammate and then doesn't defend Massa. definitely lost respect for him, on par w/ multi 21 or Senna dive-bombing Prost at Suzuka

too bad for MW, Alonso, Button and Hulk , my fav drivers on the grid (I like clean and fair racers, even if I doubt any will get a championship in the foreseeable future)

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That's chasing though and catching up to two cars that are mid fight, not really anything strenuous for tires. However, actually battling for a long time seems to be where Lewis will use up his tires and it was no surprise that the rears were burnt out. He was probably trying to put power down much quicker out of corners to keep on with Massa.

Hamilton wasn't going particularly fast in his last stint, actually quite a bit slower than his teammate which is somewhat understandable with Lewis having cars in front to try and pass.

Mercedes and Lewis should really have managed situation better as they never took into account Sergio as much as they should have when battling Felipe which probably forced their hand in the end with pressure from Sergio not allowing tyres a cool down phase. Seemed like a big drop off near the end. Good learning experience for both team and driver, should make them stronger in future years. Hopefully it does not cost them in constructors championship.

...how is that sabotage? Especially when I said the plan like others were shown doing over the weekend, was to get the cars running on a new set as close to the end as possible because tire wear especially on options was awful. We saw both RBRs do very little on soft tires, so with this knowledge it would have been a good idea to run on somewhat worn tires and then run a lap or two at the very end on fresh tires, since that is what they'd be starting on. Also you still seem to be ignoring the fact that they favor Sebastian having an extra set of tires for the race.

I don't know how or why you are coming to these redundant conclusions from my writing, but then I see you asking questions about the GP as if you didn't see or pay close attention and thus I question how much of Quali you actually saw.

So you are suggesting Red Bull would have made Vettel qualify on a used set of tyres if he decided to go on that strategy when he had new plenty of new tyres available to not have to use a used set at all. How is that not sabotage. Also you have suggested a used set would have been just over a tenth slower in qualifying. If you followed F1 much of this season, it is usually a bigger margin lost. Also if you have new tyres available, you use them, not compromise yourself for no reason.

I'm pretty sure he pitted very early just like Vettel did. But unlike Vettel he just couldn't work his way through the traffic.

It was a forced pit stop due to damage, similar for Jenson (Puncture) which messed up both their races as they had already the durable tyres on. Wouldn't have been so bad if it was the soft tyres. Fernando had steering problems too, did a good job to get close to points. Reminded me a bit of 2010 when he couldn't get past Vitaly due to losing out on the straights. I wonder if the crash at start of race for Mark was reason for his car failure being on edge of reliability. His poor starts seem to compromise his chances of winning quite often.

 

[Pagey279]

Kimi was a total douche. almost collides w/ teammate and then doesn't defend Massa. definitely lost respect for him, on par w/ multi 21 or Senna dive-bombing Prost at Suzuka

Eh? The wheel to wheel stuff with Grosjean was totally fair, Kimi was entitled to keep the inside and he did. Grosjean gained the place by going off track so he gave it back. That's all there is to it.

Plus he couldn't defend against Massa, his tyres were 48 odd laps old by then. There was physically no way he would have been able to hold on to that position. He was 2 seconds a lap down to drivers around him. It would have been idiotic for Kimi to fight.

 

[Samus]

He has a point, Kimi really should have just let him go knowing how bad his tyres were but that's just the racing driver in him I guess. As you say that's why he couldn't fight Massa, no traction out of the last corner.

In the end it didn't matter but you can see why the team would be frustrated. Kimi was never going to hold him off the rest of the race, he should have just let him go to make sure Massa didn't catch him.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

It is Lotus's team communication fault for letting this situation develop. Going by what Eric has said, Kimi probably thought Grosjean tyres were also not in good condition given the place he started so maybe he thought he could hold him off. If they explained it to him the situation before better and also afterwards, then both team and driver could have been left in a calmer mood.

 

[Pagey279]

True, but to be fair when Grosjean chose a less ambitious place to pass, Kimi didn't put up a fight.

Comparing it to the multi-21 fiasco is a little confusing at the very least.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Hamilton wasn't going particularly fast in his last stint, actually quite a bit slower than his teammate which is somewhat understandable with Lewis having cars in front to try and pass.

Mercedes and Lewis should really have managed situation better as they never took into account Sergio as much as they should have when battling Felipe which probably forced their hand in the end with pressure from Sergio not allowing tyres a cool down phase. Seemed like a big drop off near the end. Good learning experience for both team and driver, should make them stronger in future years. Hopefully it does not cost them in constructors championship.

Not sure what feed you have, but it was obvious it didn't hurt MGP in the championship. You might wanna go look at the results and do the tally you'll see their back in second place in the WCC. What they didn't take into account is how much stronger Massa's car was, simple matter is even if he was moving slower you use up more when your race head to head, that is why the tires were spent. It's pretty simple.

So you are suggesting Red Bull would have made Vettel qualify on a used set of tyres if he decided to go on that strategy when he had new plenty of new tyres available to not have to use a used set at all. How is that not sabotage. Also you have suggested a used set would have been just over a tenth slower in qualifying. If you followed F1 much of this season, it is usually a bigger margin lost. Also if you have new tyres available, you use them, not compromise yourself for no reason.

Now I'm curious if there is some language gap or some sort of Americanisms I'm using that you don't understand...

Once again, this is the last time and perhaps someone else can fill you in on what I'm saying. If you run early on in Q3 with somewhat older tires, and then come in late on Q3 for newer tires, you are more likely to get a longer first stint come race day, which helps strategy wise over competition close to you. There were other teams using older tires in Q3, so what I'm saying isn't outlandish, the fact that you wish to overlook it as if I'm pulling this from my rear end is outlandish though. They used older tires so they could switch over much later in the session, even Alonso makes note of such issues with soft tires.

“Using the soft tyres in Q3 we could have aspired to a better starting position, while the mediums would mean running a race with no traffic, because if the softer compound follows the pattern we have seen so far, then those starting with it will have to stop very early, around lap six.” -Fernando Alonso Indian GP

I never said a used said would have been a tenth slower, I'm saying if Vettel made his final lap on them they would have been slower. The only mention of a tenth I remember is him being faster than Webber by that margin or two tenths. Everything else I suggest indicates that he wouldn't have made his final quali lap on used tires but rather newer tires toward the end, which is what he and others did. I know very well of the margin lost, though it differs from track to track obviously and setting to setting, so you can't give it a constant wear rate like you've just done.

 

[dhandeh]

Top marks for the donuts and celebration at the end. It might not have been the most tight of title fights, but that isn't Vettels fault, the rest have a hell of a lot of catching up to do.

 

[JGreens]

One lucky Lotus employee still with team (As of 14:14 GMT):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTZSnqPp2NU

I'll be expecting a new radio operator come Abu Dhabi....

 

[Blitz24]

Vettel reprimanded and Red Bull fined 25,000 Euro over his post-race donuts. Full story soon.

 

[dhandeh]

Kimi isn't very popular at Lotus now!

 

[Samus]

Vettel reprimanded and Red Bull fined 25,000 Euro over his post-race donuts. Full story soon.

No surprise there, got to follow the FIA rules to the book, they'll have none of this fun business despite it doing nobody any harm.

 

[Dennisch]

Vettel reprimanded and Red Bull fined 25,000 Euro over his post-race donuts. Full story soon.

What a load of nonsense.

 

[dhandeh]

What a load of nonsense.

It is, but rules are rules. Stupid rules.

 

[Blitz24]

What is this? The NFL? I just won my 4th consecutive title and I can't act happy? Happiness and being fun are a crime here too?

 

[sems4arsenal]

One lucky Lotus employee still with team (As of 14:14 GMT):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTZSnqPp2NU

I'll be expecting a new radio operator come Abu Dhabi....

what the how'd that happen.

Missed the race sadly although by the sound of it, didn't miss much.

Congrats to Vettel and RBR on a different planet he's the f1 version of Messi.

Glad Grosjean got a podium, been impressed with him lately looks a real talent.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Not sure what feed you have, but it was obvious it didn't hurt MGP in the championship. You might wanna go look at the results and do the tally you'll see their back in second place in the WCC. What they didn't take into account is how much stronger Massa's car was, simple matter is even if he was moving slower you use up more when your race head to head, that is why the tires were spent. It's pretty simple.

I think Mercedes would have preferred to have the two extra points that they lost due to Lewis being overtaken by Sergio.

They knew how fast Felipe was, Nico struggled to overtake him but managed to jump him by pitting a lap earlier, luxury Lewis didn't have given he was second in team and pitted next lap, same as Felipe. If they tyre saved, earlier in his last stint, he potentially could have got Felipe later on or kept ahead of Sergio at least.

Now I'm curious if there is some language gap or some sort of Americanisms I'm using that you don't understand...

Once again, this is the last time and perhaps someone else can fill you in on what I'm saying. If you run early on in Q3 with somewhat older tires, and then come in late on Q3 for newer tires, you are more likely to get a longer first stint come race day, which helps strategy wise over competition close to you. There were other teams using older tires in Q3, so what I'm saying isn't outlandish, the fact that you wish to overlook it as if I'm pulling this from my rear end is outlandish though. They used older tires so they could switch over much later in the session, even Alonso makes note of such issues with soft tires.

I don't think it is anything to do with language gap, just that you don't understand what happened in qualifying and what you are suggesting seems quite ludicrous. People would have done Q3 qualifying runs with new tyres. You suggested Vettel would be at a disadvantage as he would be forced to use a used tyre for his fast lap even when he had plenty of new tyres available to him. Why would any team want to qualify on used tyres when they enough new tyres to qualify and race with. Not only would it compromise their grid position but also start of the race compared to their competitors. It is unlikely teams would want to sabotage their drivers. If they are forced to use an old set then it is understandable but usually if that is the case, they don't bother going out as you are unlikely to have enough pace to beat others if you were forced to use more tyres due to performance reasons.

I never said a used said would have been a tenth slower, I'm saying if Vettel made his final lap on them they would have been slower. The only mention of a tenth I remember is him being faster than Webber by that margin or two tenths. Everything else I suggest indicates that he wouldn't have made his final quali lap on used tires but rather newer tires toward the end, which is what he and others did. I know very well of the margin lost, though it differs from track to track obviously and setting to setting, so you can't give it a constant wear rate like you've just done.

You said Vettel would not have been able to get pole with Mediums because he only would be about one to tenths faster than Webber. Then I mentioned being two tenths ahead of Webber would have been enough to get pole, you then mentioned some strange thing about wear on tyres would mean, it would be only allowed him to go half a tenth or a tenth faster than Webber.

 

[Ardius]

No surprise there, got to follow the FIA rules to the book, they'll have none of this fun business despite it doing nobody any harm.

What a load of nonsense.

What is this? The NFL? I just won my 4th consecutive title and I can't act happy? Happiness and being fun are a crime here too?

Its more for failing to return to parc ferme - what if there was something tampered with before hand? Obviously thats not the case here and very unlikely, but thats the reason why cars are immediately put in parc ferme so that the FIA can check the cars immediately after the race to minimise the potential for cheating in this way.

Thats not to suggest Red Bull are cheating, just thats the reason why the rules have to be followed consistently.

 

[Seismica]

If you run early on in Q3 with somewhat older tires, and then come in late on Q3 for newer tires, you are more likely to get a longer first stint come race day, which helps strategy wise over competition close to you.

What link is there between doing a run on older medium tyres and having a longer stint on race day? Only the tyres you set your fastest lap on are relevant for the race if you have new sets spare, as Vettel did.

Vettel set his fastest time on the soft tyres. He did this at the start of Q3.

Had Vettel done a run on old mediums at the start of Q3, he would have ran a set of new softs afterwards anyway in order to get pole position. Had he opted to start on mediums, he would have ran a new set instead of, not in addition to the new softs. At no point is the used set of mediums relevant unless he was setting a 'banker' lap. But why set a banker lap on an old set of tyres if a) it's not going to be good enough for pole and b) you will have a worn set of tyres at the start of the race which will result in a poor first stint.

I can fully understand him using an old set for Q2 because the car was fast enough to get through, and it wasn't worth wasting a new set.

They used older tires so they could switch over much later in the session, even Alonso makes note of such issues with soft tires.

Again you are not making it clear why using older tyres at the start of Q3 is an advantage. With the huge pace advantage and the relatively low track evolution that happens within 10 minutes, why wait to set a time on the new set?

I never said a used said would have been a tenth slower, I'm saying if Vettel made his final lap on them they would have been slower. The only mention of a tenth I remember is him being faster than Webber by that margin or two tenths. Everything else I suggest indicates that he wouldn't have made his final quali lap on used tires but rather newer tires toward the end, which is what he and others did. I know very well of the margin lost, though it differs from track to track obviously and setting to setting, so you can't give it a constant wear rate like you've just done.

Webber made his fastest Q3 lap on a new set of medium tyres IIRC. Vettel would have easily matched him on a new set of mediums too. Vettel decided at the start of Q3 to set a lap on the new softs as this was his strategy for the race. Are you suggesting he might have attempted a run on new mediums at the end of Q3 (After already using the new softs), and this would have hurt his race strategy because he had used 2 new sets?

Saidur_Ali isn't the only one who can't understand what you are talking about, because you don't seem to be making a whole lot of sense. I feel like there is some key information or detail that you are leaving out (Possibly how tyres can be put through a heat cycle and conditioned for a race in order to improve durability?).

 

[Samus]

Its more for failing to return to parc ferme - what if there was something tampered with before hand? Obviously thats not the case here and very unlikely, but thats the reason why cars are immediately put in parc ferme so that the FIA can check the cars immediately after the race to minimise the potential for cheating in this way.

Thats not to suggest Red Bull are cheating, just thats the reason why the rules have to be followed consistently.

This is hardly the first time a car hasn't been immediately returned to parc ferme at the end of a race. How is it any different to those that stop on the track in the last lap? They don't get back for quite a while.

No I'm pretty sure it was for the donuts.