JGreens
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2013 Formula 1 Gulf Air Bahrain Grand Prix
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Of course, because with every driver that won their (mostly singular) titles it was all down to themselves, whereas Vettel's statistics of 3 consecutive championships, 28 race victories, 49 podiums, 38 pole positions, 17 fastest laps and over 1,000 career points could be emulated by any old geyser that sits in a Red Bull.
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I was very pleased the camera followed the action in the middle of the pack and not follow Vettel alot.
Ah but you see when you bring Webber up the Vettel haters will say either a) he's a really rubbish driver (as apposed to Vettel who's just a bit rubbish) or b) his car isn't as good as Vettel's, it's a conspiracy against him.
Both arguments are heavily flawed of course but that's what they come up with.
JGreens
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So because I'm not a Vettel fan, I'm an idiot? Sound logic there.
whereas Vettel's statistics of 3 consecutive championships, 28 race victories, 49 podiums, 38 pole positions, 17 fastest laps and over 1,000 career points could be emulated by any old geyser that sits in a Red Bull.
As a racing fan do you really care about fastest laps and career points? I mean, by using that logic, you're arguing that Vettel is better than Piquet, Senna, Hunt, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Lauda etc... - practically every other driver before the rule change to points.
There is nothing wrong with not being a fan of a driver but the issue is when people can't see through their blind bias and have to constantly bash those drivers. I don't particularly like Vettel as a person but I respect his talent. Same with Alonso for me really, I've never really liked him but I respect him as one of the top three drivers in F1 at the moment, IMO.
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Why are you so angry at someone for quite simply doing his job to the best of his abilities?
If Hamilton did the same, if he had the best car for a few seasons, qualified first, and ran off into the distance and became triple world champion would you be saying the same about him? How about Alonso? Rosberg? Button?
Answer me that.
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It's easy to write off since Vettel ran away with it, but I can't remember the last time I've seen as much fierce battling between drivers like this. It's certainly sparked off a lot more interest in certain people that were slowly trying to leave F1 behind before.
It wasn't a good F1 race in a traditional sense, no way, but to me it was like heavy metal vs. the usual radio hard rock we're used to... I just did words.
He must've forgot exactly how, a driver he respects, Nigel Mansell won his first title.
What a snooze-fest season in a car anyone with half a brain could've been WDC in right?
It's easy to write off since Vettel ran away with it, but I can't remember the last time I've seen as much fierce battling between drivers like this. It's certainly sparked off a lot more interest in certain people that were slowly trying to leave F1 behind before.
It wasn't a good F1 race in a traditional sense, no way, but to me it was like heavy metal vs. the usual radio hard rock we're used to... I just did words.
He must've forgot exactly how, a driver he respects, Nigel Mansell won his first title.
What a snooze-fest season in a car anyone with half a brain could've been WDC in right?
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Statistics do speak volumes about a drivers ability. But you, like many before you are arguing that because Vettel is so fast that it must only be down to the car. Interestingly enough, if you convert all points systems to the current one, the only champions to have a higher points-per-race average than Vettel are Fangio, Farina and Ascari, none of which completed more than 51 races.
Senna won three titles in the fastest car, but they always praise his driving ability. Prost won four titles in the fastest car, and they always praise his driving ability. Fangio won five titles in the fastest car, and they always praise his driving ability. But then Vettel wins three and Schumacher wins seven, and all of a sudden because they too have the fastest car (like every champion before them), it means no skill is required to win race after race after race.
Unless you're called Lewis Hamilton of course, because the car plays no role in his victories.
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Really enjoyed the race, it had some great battles and it enhanced the Bahrains circuit reputation, i was gutted for Di Resta and Rosberg just spent the whole race going backwards! good to see Perez back fighting again 👍
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BHRxRacer
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Oh you're right. He'll probably get sooo unlucky in the race he wouldn't be able to lap 2nd place a few times.
I'm glad you let go of your arguments and started attacking me with assumptions.
Not always
Disregard Schumacher's 2nd career and he'll have a much higher ratio, actually. But like I said, statistics aren't everything.
Actually, Schumacher didn't always have the fastest car despite what jealous old drivers and journalists would like you to think.
Not every champion. Also there are drivers like Massa that never won a championship that probably deserved. I'm not going to further put names in here not to start ****.
Bottom line is, there have been drivers in the past that won with the fastest cars but they were always tested in their career at some point with slower cars and succeeded(I don't care about Fangio and other ancient history drivers). Vettel wasn't. Bring up the torro rosso days and 2009 all you want, they don't mean much. Furthermore, the first half of last year's season says it all. Even though he still had a fast car, probably the fastest, he couldn't do anything because it didn't suit him. I didn't believe in Alonso myself until 2011, when he had a ****** car and still fought like a champion. I've always thought 2005 was too easy because he had a superior car and Schumacher was tired, and 2006 he got lucky.
In most cases you're right. It's amazing how bias a lot of Brits can be. Heck, last week Coulthard said on the podium interview "The first pole position for Mercedes since the great Stirling Moss". How convenient to just forget TWO pole positions last year from Schumacher and Rosberg. Oh well, any chance to overglorify Hamilton, right?I have noticed that those who attack Schumacher and Vettel while at the same time supporting Hamilton tend to be British. I wonder why...
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zippy_the_cat
That's because Warr later worked some chap named Senna. But Colin Chapman rated him highly, which ultimately kept his career going. Mansell took a few years to hit his stride...it wasn't until 1985 until he saw he could run with Keke, and make Piquet work hard to bolster his place in the team.
Mansell probably wasn't the shrewdest driver, nor the most patient, and he was known to setup the car halfway...but damn if he didn't have a brass set of balls and the ability to drive a car by the scruff of its neck. Not a genius like Senna nor Prost, but without a doubt, faster than both on more than a few occasions.
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So you honestly believe Coulthard lied to make Hamilton sound better? Or could it be that Coulthard and the rest of BBC commentary team say stupid things like this at most races. By the way Schumacher's lap didn't count as a pole just like Hamilton's in Catalunya 2012. You just sound bitter over Schumacher coming back when he was past his best and damaging his reputation.
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BHRxRacer
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Like I said, conveniently forgot about them. He may not have lied on purpose but a lot of Brits are so subconsciously bias their minds forget other people in the world exist.
And Schumacher didn't damage anything. He was rusty and old in 2010, basically a full season of practice sessions for him. He didn't care much in 2011 because his car still sucked but he actually did better than everyone in 2012. He only finished half the races(first half of the season could've landed him leading the championship at some point) and the ones he finished he either had problems(like when Grosjean clipped him at the start) or his car went full speed backwards like what we saw with Nico.
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You complain about driver bias but write childish nonsense like this?
You also call Vettel lucky but you're very quick to glorify Schumacher who mainly won in the fastest (or illegal) car. Also, you shouldn't have to defend Rosberg so much from poor performances if there weren't as many as there were. He's been outqualified by Hamilton 3-1 and has only been faster than him in one of the races. You can argue all you want about DNFs but was behind him before any of those anyway. Last year he cracked under pressure in Q3 in Australia and Malaysia when he should have been on pole. He's definitely quick but you can't accept it when he's been beaten by a team mate that's actually quick and in his prime.
BHRxRacer
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YOU complain about childish nonsense and write something like this?
It's funny because I just pointed how people always say that in my earlier post.
If you really think his performance was poor yesterday then you're truly blind or you just look at the results. Do I have to go through this again?
He's only been outqualified ONCE this season as far as I'm concerned. He was considerably faster than everyone on the field in Malaysia and Australia but he was caught out by the weather and traffic.
Bahrain aside, because of opposite fortunes, he was faster than Lewis in the other races. The same way he was behind Lewis in Malaysia and got back, he was going to in the other races as well. He's usually managing his tyres to charge at the end(the same way Lewis did yesterday in clean air). Bahrain was the opposite because he had to defend against the wind for 40+ laps.
In Bahrain, too. I agree :/ He got overly excited and cracked...
??? You keep saying Michael was slow and not in his prime last year, when he was in fact insanely quick for the car he had. Nico had a hard time outqualifying him throughout the season.
Oh and I'll accept it any day Lewis does a better job in qualifying/race. Rosberg ****ed up his Q3 lap in China, Lewis didn't. There. Happy?
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Warr's opinion of Mansell pre-dated Senna's arrival at Lotus. Remember that Nigel had the 1984 Monaco race in hand; Warr was telling people Mansell would bin it and sure enough, he did, setting up the famous Prost/Senna showdown at the finish.
Overall, I agree, he was one of the greats but not the Prost/Senna class. A more interesting argument is about how he stacks up to Piquet.
On another issue, BBC/Autosport F1 tech guru Gary Anderson weighs in on the Ferrari/Alonso DRS miscue, about halfway down in his Bahrain wrapup. He agrees with the diagnosis mentioned above for the failure but also my point that both the pitwall and Fernando erred in causing the second stop.
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Um, yeah, he pretty much did. The B194 and B195 were streaks ahead of the rest, and the Ferraris he drove to the next five titles in were completely untouchable. 2003 was a bit closer than the rest, but look at how fast Barrichello was too, the amount of double podiums they got together was staggering.
And the Ferrari he was driving was of virtually equal pace to Lewis' McLaren. Both cars we're clearly faster than the BMW Sauber's and Toyota's etc.
He comfortably beat Liuzzi and Bourdais whilst at Toro Rosso. Just look at there lackluster performances compared to his stellar achievements in those cars. He did 25 races with Toro Rosso, and scored 41 points. Bourdais and Liuzzi collectively scored 7. In the 10 years prior to that the only other driver to have won a race in a car that was arguably not one of the four fastest was Fisichella in a Jordan at Brazil 2003, in rather fluky conditions at that.
You say he couldn't anything in the first half of last year, but in the first 10 races he scored points in eight of them (It would have been all ten without the puncture and and the alternator failure), and got a race win and two other podiums. He would have been fourth without the puncture at Malaysia, lost an almost certain victory at Valencia, and podium at Germany due to that penalty. He scored 100 points, which would have been 142 without those misfortunes.
Schumacher's 2005 car was a dog. The rule changes that year were probably done to try and stop Ferrari's dominance, and it worked. All but three races in 2006 were won by either Alonso or Schumacher. Alonso was fortunate that Schumacher lost several points in the last two races, but prior to that it was pretty much neck and neck between them, and between their respective teammates.
JGreens
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BHRxRacer
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Nico had a suspension problem in Shanghai and later in the race it failed completely. In Australia he retired too soon to tell whether or not he was going to jump Hamilton but you can't say Hamiltin outraced him either.
Were they "illegal" though? You'll probably say yes because it's the only excuse you can think of to give to Damon/Williams.
From 1998 to 2001 the Mclaren was much faster than the Ferraris. He almost took 1998 but he got unlucky in Japan and Coulthard took him out in Spa. He broke his leg in 1999, points per race he would've won it if you consider his performance. In 2000 he still didn't have the fastest car and won it fair and square. 2001 he did get a little lucky Mika had his engine blown up every race, but he still didn't have the fastest car. 2003 was close like you said. He got a little lucky again this time it was Kimi whose car retired a few more times than usual.
2002-2004 are the only two seasons where Ferrari was faster than everyone by a considerable amount. You can say he had a couple of Vettel seasons there.
Equal, maybe. I still think had it not been for Singapore's incident Massa could've easily won.
Didn't I say not to bring up his Toro rosso days? Of course he'll stand out against those two. I never said he doesn't belong to F1, he's just overrated and never been put under a true test like, say, Alonso.
He well-deserved the penalty in Germany. Wasn't that when he passed Button from outside the circuit? Certain victory in Valencia yes, but so what? Webber had his kers failing half those races and he was still ahead in the points.
That's what I said.
It was neck and neck between drivers but Renault always looked faster. There were 3 races, if you choose to change how only two of them should've ended, Michael would've won the title. Monaco, where, let's face it, he got screwed. Even if he purposely parked the car to impede Alonso he shouldn't have started from the very back. Give him a 5 grid place penalty ffs. Had he started anywhere near the top 5 he would've won the race. The other two races are Brazil and Japan, for obvious reasons.
Anyway having watched the TV version of the race I can confirm and change a few things.
*Grosjean drove an even better race than I originally thought. My driver of the day now.
*That caterham wasn't being lapped, that's why Nico actually had to overtake it putting him right in the fight with Button which further ruined his tyres. All in all, he defended far too hard in head-wind, on the dirty side and with a heavy car for far too many laps. Add Webber's blatant cut which he should've gotten a penalty for and the fact that he had to start saving fuel from halfway in the race, he really did have everything against him. I still think he should've have defended though, he was driving by heart, not by his brain which is unusual for him. Even with an extra stop, he was only 6 seconds behind Hamilton. Take all of these things into account and you see how good he was doing.
*Ferrari cost Alonso the race
*Perez is doing what he did with Sauber the second half of last season. If he keeps doing that he's not going to finish many races.
*Hamilton, although in clean air, suffered as much as Nico did in the first half of the race. Imagine if he had to defend faster cars on the dirt with head-wind. That said, that was a sweet move he put on Webber in the end.
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PS: In the only laps Nico Rosberg was in clean air, somewhere from lap 9 to 11 I think, he posted the fastest lap.
Seismica
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From my point of view, Vettel is past the point where he is criticised as a driver. People know he is good. The question remaining is whether he is as good as Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton etc. I believe Alonso to be the strongest driver in F1 bar none.
2012 was a very good year for Vettel in this respect. 2010 and 2011 were easy for him, the Red Bull was undeniably dominant for both of those years; Ferrari and Mclaren never stood a realistic chance (Though in 2010, Alonso gave him a run for his money towards the end). Because of this, there were doubts as to whether his success could be attributed to his skill as a driver. In 2012, Vettel showed he was good enough in a car which was not the fastest (It was however, the best package overall as Mclaren suffered a lot of reliability issues). I remember watching the Spanish GP, thinking how well Vettel is doing to make his way through the field in a car which was outclassed by the opposition. The fact he also added another year to his inter-team battle win against Webber further proved his worth.
A pace-setting car is the single most important pre-requisite for winning a championship. Vettel has had this for the majority of races since the middle of 2009. You can't single him out as a not so great driver because he has had a dominant car (No more than you could for Button, or Raikkonen, or Alonso, or Schumacher, or Hakkinen: All of whom had pace-setting cars in their championship years), but you can't attribute his achievements solely to his driving either. That is why I firmly believe that we need to see him up against a different teammate (Someone like Kimi, or Hulkenburg for instance) to measure his ability as a driver. Webber seems to have lost some of the speed he had in 2009/2010, so we need a better point of comparison.
I'm satisfied that Vettel is more than a flash in the pan. He has skill, he has pace, he has racecraft. But is he as good as the likes of Alonso and Kimi? I don't think so. Or at least, I reserve judgement for another season or two. If this season continues with the unpredictability, I will be surprised if Vettel manages to still come out on top.
2012 was a very good year for Vettel in this respect. 2010 and 2011 were easy for him, the Red Bull was undeniably dominant for both of those years; Ferrari and Mclaren never stood a realistic chance (Though in 2010, Alonso gave him a run for his money towards the end). Because of this, there were doubts as to whether his success could be attributed to his skill as a driver. In 2012, Vettel showed he was good enough in a car which was not the fastest (It was however, the best package overall as Mclaren suffered a lot of reliability issues). I remember watching the Spanish GP, thinking how well Vettel is doing to make his way through the field in a car which was outclassed by the opposition. The fact he also added another year to his inter-team battle win against Webber further proved his worth.
A pace-setting car is the single most important pre-requisite for winning a championship. Vettel has had this for the majority of races since the middle of 2009. You can't single him out as a not so great driver because he has had a dominant car (No more than you could for Button, or Raikkonen, or Alonso, or Schumacher, or Hakkinen: All of whom had pace-setting cars in their championship years), but you can't attribute his achievements solely to his driving either. That is why I firmly believe that we need to see him up against a different teammate (Someone like Kimi, or Hulkenburg for instance) to measure his ability as a driver. Webber seems to have lost some of the speed he had in 2009/2010, so we need a better point of comparison.
I'm satisfied that Vettel is more than a flash in the pan. He has skill, he has pace, he has racecraft. But is he as good as the likes of Alonso and Kimi? I don't think so. Or at least, I reserve judgement for another season or two. If this season continues with the unpredictability, I will be surprised if Vettel manages to still come out on top.
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