2013 Formula One Hungarian Grand Prix

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

excellent passing all around. that's why they get paid to do what they do. Spa is going to be telling. as long as a certain someone knows the quickest way to the front is NOT over Alonso's shoulder...

You mean nearly chopping off someones helmet while strapped to there head with literally the rear wheels of your car isn't a good thing?

Also I find it funny that Alonso is pissed off at Grosjean for the aggressive driving at the start. Though admits everyone was faster including Grosjean...

I think Grosjean had a fine start and though he pushed Alonso out a bit through the first couple corners. That's just defensive driving to gain ground on Vettel. Get over it Alonso, your an amazing driver just chalk it up to a bad weekend for Ferrari.

EDIT:

I love surprises like this after work



EXACTLY. Ever wondered why Vettel has NEVER won lower than qualifying THIRD? Alonso has REPEATEDLY won from lower qualifying positions in a SLOWER CAR, so has Kimi. Vettel is a total fraud in a golden car.

I'd rather you answer to your asinine prediction earlier about how "blodnie" (your words not mine) would drive off with this unfairly and this would be a snooze fest of a race.

With the new tires coming here I don't think anyone should have thought this race to be boring or a non-race, it was shown to us all that Hungaroring can be exciting again.

 

[lbsf1]

EXACTLY. Ever wondered why Vettel has NEVER won lower than qualifying THIRD? Alonso has REPEATEDLY won from lower qualifying positions in a SLOWER CAR, so has Kimi. Vettel is a total fraud in a golden car.

I wouldn't go that far. Vettel has proved by his world championships and how he can lead from the front that he is a very capable and fast driver, however races like today prove to me that he isn't any better than Hamilton, Alonso, Raikonnen, ect. I wouldn't call him a fraud however he isn't as special as some make out.

 

[Samus]

However where was the penalty for all the other drivers who also did the same thing (on other corners aswell)???

If everyone who did it was penalised then it would be fair however to only give penalties sporadically is not fair.

Martin covered that in commentary, they turn a blind eye when drivers go off just driving unless they start doing fastest sectors by going off. Then they'll start getting warnings and penalties. Going off the track when you're overtaking is a different matter though.

 

[lbsf1]

Martin covered that in commentary, they turn a blind eye when drivers go off just driving unless they start doing fastest sectors by going off. Then they'll start getting warnings and penalties. Going off the track when you're overtaking is a different matter though.

Yes, however drivers do use that amount of track overtaking in other cases, however they get away with it.

Also the rule is therefore not being applied, the rule specifies any time you go off track limits, the stewards are not applying the rule they are instead making their own decisions on when to apply the rule. Choose one or the other, in sports like formula one you cannot have rules which arn't constant.

 

[Samus]

Yes, however drivers do use that amount of track
overtaking in other cases, however they get away with it.

Such as?

Also the rule is therefore not being applied, the rule specifies any time you go off track limits, the stewards are not applying the rule they are instead making their own decisions on when to apply the rule. Choose one or the other, in sports like formula one you cannot have rules which arn't constant.

There is no "Go off track = get a penalty" rule. The rules simply state that drivers must use the track at all times. It's up to the discretion of the stewards what to do when a driver does go outside of the track and the discretion usually is do nothing unless they gain a significant advantage or persist in doing it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Also as I said about Alonso other people took issue with Grosjean today, and I think that is why they applied a penelty at that point. Even if other drivers have done it, the stewards felt probably it was time

 

[Samus]

I don't really think it was that, he was the only driver that went off making an overtake, he gained a significant advantage (a position) and so get a penalty.

Anyway about the other thing:

Lewis Hamilton has never won from lower than 4th.
Ayrton Senna never won from lower than 5th.

These drivers are great qualifiers and go out there and get the job done, from the front. Winning from the back takes a lot of luck and things going in your favour as much as it takes skill. Not having done that does not make you a bad driver, quite the opposite.

 

[lbsf1]

Such as?

I can't remember exact circumstances however both my dad and I were pointing them out to each other during the race, don't claim that as a proof I'm wrong just because my memory isn't brilliant.

There is no "Go off track = get a penalty" rule. The rules simply state that drivers must use the track at all times. It's up to the discretion of the stewards what to do when a driver does go outside of the track and the discretion usually is do nothing unless they gain a significant advantage or persist in doing it.

There is no rule specifying a penalty however there is a rule saying you shall not exceed track limits, which lots of drivers do, the only difference in this case was that an overtake was happening, in Grosjean had kept within the track limits he would have caused an accident. (overtaking drivers responsibility to not cause contant.)

The rule does not specify that a penalty should only be applied during overtakes, the stewards have decided that as their own and as a result the penalties are inconsistent.


Give me a minute I'm just going to go and find my MSA rule book upstairs (all UK competitors are issued with one.), and find the exact wording, however I'm 99% sure that the rule has no mention of overtaking.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't really think it was that, he was the only driver that went off making an overtake, he gained a significant advantage (a position) and so get a penalty.

Anyway about the other thing:

Lewis Hamilton has never won from lower than 4th.
Ayrton Senna never won from lower than 5th.

These drivers are great qualifiers and go out there and get the job done, from the front. Winning from the back takes a lot of luck and things going in your favour as much as it takes skill. Not having done that does not make you a bad driver, quite the opposite.

I agree, but some people feel that if Jenson can win from the back of a Canadian GP, then surely the top top drivers should be able to do that even more so. I think the drive Lewis showed us two GP (now three?) ago was amazing and even though not a win deserves the merit.

 

[Samus]

I can't remember exact circumstances however both my dad and I were pointing them out to each other during the race, don't claim that as a proof I'm wrong just because my memory isn't brilliant.



There is no rule specifying a penalty however there is a rule saying you shall not exceed track limits, which lots of drivers do, the only difference in this case was that an overtake was happening, in Grosjean had kept within the track limits he would have caused an accident. (overtaking drivers responsibility to not cause contant.)

The rule does not specify that a penalty should only be applied during overtakes, the stewards have decided that as their own and as a result the penalties are inconsistent.


Give me a minute I'm just going to go and find my MSA rule book upstairs (all UK competitors are issued with one.), and find the exact wording, however I'm 99% sure that the rule has no mention of overtaking.

A few drivers went over the white lines on a few occasions but the stewards deemed they did not gain a significant advantage doing so.

Like I said, the FIA rulebook states that drivers must remain on the track (between the white lines) at all times. That's it. If they don't it's up to the discretion of the stewards what to do about it. They can do nothing if they think they didn't gain an advantage or they can give a penalty if they think they did. They thought Grosjean did as he gained a place. They didn't think other drivers did.

As for avoiding an accident you just have to bring up the Monaco point again, if there had been a barrier there instead of a white line Grosjean wouldn't have gone beyond the track.

 

[lbsf1]

RULE ON TRACK LIMITS

Section Q (Circuit Racing), 14.5

Drivers must use the track at all times, for avoidance of doubt
White lines are considered part of the track but kerbs are not
A driver is no longer on track if no part of the car is in contact with the track
Repititions of this offence, or where the car appears to be out of control may be reported to the clerk of the course and may entail penalties up to and including exclusion

No where there is mentioned whether or not you are overtaking, that is irrelevant on whether you have broken the rule or not and there is no mention of gaining an advantage, that is simply a recomendation that has been used by the stewards to decided when they want to penalise. However also in this circumstance Grosjean was ahead before he ran off track so therefore gained no advantage.

If you really wanted to get picky about it (as people have done successfully in karting) then since they are not penalising other drives who run off the circuit then the race meeting is no longer being held within the specified regulations and thus all other rules are also void.

 

[JGreens]

Anyway about the other thing:

Lewis Hamilton has never won from lower than 4th.
Ayrton Senna never won from lower than 5th.

Still better than Vettel.

how he can lead from the front

lead from the front? Yeah I do that too, but I don't get any credit for it. In fact I should get more respect because my X1 is always kept clean by my own credits. I don't have some fancy team paying for it.

I'd rather you answer to your asinine prediction earlier about how "blodnie" (your words not mine) would drive off with this unfairly and this would be a snooze fest of a race.

Oh, a simple typo and it's all gone pete tong here? Anyway, if you watched the German GP you would of seen how Hamilton just gave way to Vettel and the entire race was utterly sleep-inducing, I feared the same, until I had a text which said that Hamilton grew a spine and actually wanted to win. Besides, I'm much happier than Vettel didn't win.

 

[Samus]

That isn't quite the F1 rule.

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

You don't seem to be getting the point I'm making. It doesn't matter if overtaking is mentioned or not, it's up to the stewards to decide what to do if a driver breaks the rule and as I've said three times now, in F1 generally speaking they let drivers off as long as they don't go purple in the sector. If they gain an advantage, as Grosjean did by finishing the overtake off the track they get a penalty.

 

[lbsf1]

lead from the front? Yeah I do that too, but I don't get any credit for it. In fact I should get more respect because my X1 is always kept clean by my own credits. I don't have some fancy team paying for it.

The red bull was never significantly faster than the other cars, so for Vettel to win by the margins he did then it proves that he must have been a fast driver. Leading from the front is easier than having to fight through traffic however it is by no means a piece of cake as you actually have to be faster then the other drivers in the first place.

 

[TheBook]

Second DRS zone looks like it'll be about useless. I've got a feeling Mercedes will struggle with the tires this race and the door will be open for Ferrari and Lotus to rack up a bunch of WCC points. Red Bull will probably be the class of the field again.

Well, I got one out of three predictions correct. That's worth something, right?

 

[lbsf1]

You don't seem to be getting the point I'm making. It doesn't matter if overtaking is mentioned or not, it's up to the stewards to decide what to do if a driver breaks the rule and as I've said three times now, in F1 generally speaking they let drivers off as long as they don't go purple in the sector. If they gain an advantage, as Grosjean did by finishing the overtake off the track they get a penalty.

Right ok, my apologies the official FIA rules therefore differ from the MSA rules

You are correct in what your saying on what happens currently, however I don't believe that this is fair, you can't have a rule that says you arn't allowed off track limits and then say that its ok because of circumstances not in the rule book, that leniency is not for the stewards to decide, if its not in the rules you don't impose it.

In motorsport you cannot have leniency in the rules, you have either broken it or not and therefore should either be punished or not. The rules are designed to not have this leniency however the stewards have decided to add it on their own.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Oh, a simple typo and it's all gone pete tong here? Anyway, if you watched the German GP you would of seen how Hamilton just gave way to Vettel and the entire race was utterly sleep-inducing, I feared the same, until I had a text which said that Hamilton grew a spine and actually wanted to win. Besides, I'm much happier than Vettel didn't win.

He didn't give way to anything. Also it wasn't a simple typo, you were utterly wrong and looked a fool. Some of us have the respect and humility to say when we're wrong clearly you don't.

The tire is different this gp from last gp. This is a mock 2012 tire and the other was the same tire we have seen since Australia with the canvas being different since it was Kevlar in Germany. The Merc didn't have the tire and thus Lewis couldn't do anything, so RBR and Vettel were better. Face facts or go and watch something where your sugar coated world is punched full of holes.

 

[niky]

I debate whether this race "proves" anything about Vettel's "inability" to race in traffic. We already know the RBR is at a disadvantage in a straight line to the McLaren (though McLaren's current poor pace means that they aren't often on the same piece of track) and the Lotus was obviously faster in a straight line at the end. Doesn't matter how good your car is, if you don't have the raw power or the grip to overtake, you can't. And then you get to the heat issue.

Lewis not only had a very fast car, he had a very good one, tire-wise, today. And that made all the difference.

On the other hand, Vettel defended brilliantly, all race long, and did a good job of holding off a whole lot of attacks. If he'd only managed to find a way past Button the first time, the outcome of the race might have been much different.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I debate whether this race "proves" anything about Vettel's "inability" to race in traffic. We already know the RBR is at a disadvantage in a straight line to the McLaren (though McLaren's current poor pace means that they aren't often on the same piece of track) and the Lotus was obviously faster in a straight line at the end. Doesn't matter how good your car is, if you don't have the raw power or the grip to overtake, you can't. And then you get to the heat issue.

Lewis not only had a very fast car, he had a very good one, tire-wise, today. And that made all the difference.

On the other hand, Vettel defended brilliantly, all race long, and did a good job of holding off a whole lot of attacks. If he'd only managed to find a way past Button the first time, the outcome of the race might have been much different.

Also it's not like Vettel finished 6th or 5th he finished down one spot from his Quali grid start so it's kind of a stretch to say this proves Vettel can't pass. He was just bested by Lewis's will to win today.

 

[Samus]

Right ok, my apologies the official FIA rules therefore differ from the MSA rules

You are correct in what your saying on what happens currently, however I don't believe that this is fair, you can't have a rule that says you arn't allowed off track limits and then say that its ok because of circumstances not in the rule book, that leniency is not for the stewards to decide, if its not in the rules you don't impose it.

There is no way the rule could be applied hard and fast. There are far too many variables for a car going off track to just say "Off track - penalty". It's always got to come down to the stewards to decide whether a driver should be penalised or not.

Also the F1 drivers know this. They get briefed before every race weekend what is and isn't acceptable on any number of things. It's different each race and even for different corners, for example at Monza they'll be told running four wheels over the white line on the exit of Ascari is fine but at other corners it's not. They will be told what they can and can't get away with when it comes to exceeding the white lines.

In motorsport you cannot have leniency in the rules, you have either broken it or not and therefor should either be punished or not. The rules are designed to not have this leniency however the stewards have decided to add it on their own.

It's not leniency, it's discretion in how you enforce the rules. It's never going to be black or white when it comes to many aspects of motor racing. You've got offences like speeding in the pit lane, ignoring yellow/blue flags and that's about it for the absolutes. Everything else has to be judged.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well, I got one out of three predictions correct. That's worth something, right?

Indeed, also your predictions that weren't wrong, aren't that crazy since you were using what you've learned from the season so far 👍.

You could have said crazy inane stuff like some other users on here that have no basis in reality but instead dreams

 

[niky]

Isn't that the way it is with all series? You go outside the track limits on purpose to gain an advantage, you get penalized.

If you *whoops* off the track and lose a place or two, no penalty.

I don't see where Romain's penalty was controversial. He went all four off while overtaking.

The controversial one will be the investigation on the Button incident, where Button pulled into the pits right after, giving Romain no chances to give the place back. Which is perhaps why they decided to investigate after the race.

 

[JGreens]

He didn't give way to anything.

I clearly forgot where Hamilton defended against Vettel, since Vettel was already in front before the first corner in Germany.

Also it wasn't a simple typo

Yes it was. Simply typing the letter d before the letter n in blondie is simple and easy to do.

you were utterly wrong and looked a fool. Some of us have the respect and humility to say when we're wrong clearly you don't.

How am I the fool when I clearly state on each and every post that I don't want Vettel to win and he didn't. So I'm perfectly happy to say that my prediction was, thankfully, completely false and that Vettel hasn't won! WIN/WIN! 👍


EDIT:

I debate whether this race "proves" anything about Vettel's "inability" to race in traffic. We already know the RBR is at a disadvantage in a straight line to the McLaren (though McLaren's current poor pace means that they aren't often on the same piece of track) and the Lotus was obviously faster in a straight line at the end. Doesn't matter how good your car is, if you don't have the raw power or the grip to overtake, you can't. And then you get to the heat issue.

I forget how vastly straight the Hungaroring is. Doesn't it hold like the longest straight on the grid? Vettel had his opportunities and FLOUNDERED them. I'd expect better from a "champion", I'd put money on drivers like Hamilton & Alonso to get the job done.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Bit new to F1?
This is what will happen...Lewis doesn't fight Blondie who simply waltzes past and off into the distance for another EPIC OMG BEST EVAR victory. The commentators are already dusting off the emergency (Racecar is Racecar) jokes and bottom-barrel quips about how they probably once met the likes of Hunt & Fittipaldi when rat-arsed in some dive bar next to track about thirty years ago...

...although we shouldn't complain too loudly, because you know, there's only another FOUR weeks before Spa!

Looks like I was right about first sector strength might be key for Mercedes and Lewis to keep ahead if it translated into the race and it did.

I understand your admiration for Vettel though if you are new to F1...

 

[lbsf1]

There is no way the rule could be applied hard and fast. There are far too many variables for a car going off track to just say "Off track - penalty". It's always got to come down to the stewards to decide whether a driver should be penalised or not.

Also the F1 drivers know this. They get briefed before every race weekend what is and isn't acceptable on any number of things. It's different each race and even for different corners, for example at Monza they'll be told running four wheels over the white line on the exit of Ascari is fine but at other corners it's not. They will be told what they can and can't get away with when it comes to exceeding the white lines.

It's not leniency, it's discretion in how you enforce the rules. It's never going to be black or white when it comes to many aspects of motor racing. You've got offences like speeding in the pit lane, ignoring yellow/blue flags and that's about it for the absolutes. Everything else has to be judged.

As I said I disagree with the way the rules are being inforced. As your second paragraph said drivers are being told they can specifically break the rules, should they be told that, no. The rule book that is accessible to all of them has already told them what is acceptable or not. That should be the end of it, the stewards making all these exceptions leaves it open for situations like today where Grosjean was penalised but no one else was for also breaking the rules.

There is no descretion built into the rules so therefore no descretion should be applied, if the rules said "Track limits may only be broken if the car is avoiding an accident", then so be it. However currently there is no descretion in the rules on what is ok and what is not ok so therefore no descretion should be given by the stewards. At the moment there is no written rule on what you can penalised for or not, it is completely up to the stewards descretion and thus undermining the point of the rule.

I agree that you could not apply the rule hard and fast fairly however the stewards should apply it in that way because that is what the rules state.


The reason I have this view point is a kart race that I was part of a couple of years back. The stewards decided that they were going to apply the rule strictly as was written in the rule book. This was because people were intentionally hitting the kerbs to the point of going off track. They black flagged about 3/4 of the grid. This caused a huge argument between drivers and the officials, the officials were right because they were implementing the rules as written, and as they rightly said some people pushed to the limit of often going off track, those people were thus gaining an advantage by doing so and should be punished, hence the hard and fast approach to the rules.

Interestingly there is also the rule for many MSA kart tracks in which using an escape road no matter the circumstance will give you a 1 lap penalty. I have been found foul of this rule as I avoided a crash by going down an escape road (it cuts a chicane). The penalty was applied, however unfair this rule seems it was known to everyone and therefore much fairer then everything being decided on a case by case basis.

The above is much more logical that the current approach in which the rules are applied soley on how the steward is feeling.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Looks like I was right about first sector strength might be key for Mercedes and Lewis to keep ahead if it translated into the race and it did.

I understand your admiration for Vettel though if you are new to F1...

👍 Too funny

I clearly forgot where Hamilton defended against Vettel, since Vettel was already in front before the first corner in Germany.

Oh you mean the one where Vettel was faster off the start than Lewis and the tires spun? Because the Merc didn't have the tires at all in the First stint. If you're going to circumvent what I say and not actually attack it with an opinion that isn't trite, then why bother?

Yes it was. Simply typing the letter d before the letter n in blondie is simple and easy to do.

I'm not here to give you an English lesson, if I did I'd be here for the remainder of the year.

How am I the fool when I clearly state on each and every post that I don't want Vettel to win and he didn't. So I'm perfectly happy to say that my prediction was, thankfully, completely false and that Vettel hasn't won! WIN/WIN! 👍.

Your comments show everyone your a fool, I guarantee you I'm not the only one that thinks so, I'm just the only one willing to be blunt with you. Also it's quite a cop-out for you to say WIN/WIN to save face, when you were still wrong. Though your distaste for Vettel grows now because he lost, you still said (which I showed) a prediction that Vettel would walk away with this and then further try and state how F1 is one sided, Vettel is the golden child with a silver spoon that RBR give him. Oh and my favorite from you..."SEASON IS OVER", but since Vettel didn't win luckily we don't have to view the daft festering words you'd speak.

 

[sems4arsenal]

There needs to be a faster way to make a decision from the stewards,had they picked up what Grosjean did right away he could have just given the position back and lose what 4-5 seconds?

Drive throughs are very harsh in my opinion and anyway from a viewer's prespective ,legal or not that was a brilliant overtake on Massa.

 

[Samus]

LMSCorvetteGT2 just put him on ignore, it's much easier.

As I said I disagree with the way the rules are being inforced. As your second paragraph said drivers are being told they can specifically break the rules, should they be told that, no. The rule book that is accessible to all of them has already told them what is acceptable or not. That should be the end of it, the stewards making all these exceptions leaves it open for situations like today where Grosjean was penalised but no one else was for also breaking the rules.

This is not new to F1, driver briefings happen at every race and no, the rule book isn't always final. What Charlie and the stewards decide at each race is final and as I said, the drivers know what's what going into the event. They know that if they go off the track while making a pass they'll get penalised but if they just go off the track whilst driving the probably won't. You may see that as wrong but as long as the drivers themselves know the situation I don't see the problem.

There is no descretion built into the rules so therefore no descretion should be applied, if the rules said "Track limits may only be broken if the car is avoiding an accident", then so be it. However currently there is no descretion in the rules on what is ok and what is not ok so therefore no descretion should be given by the stewards. At the moment there is no written rule on what you can penalised for or not, it is completely up to the stewards descretion and thus undermining the point of the rule.

There is also nothing in the rulebook that says what should happen when the rule is broken. That's where the discretion comes in.

The reason I have this view point is a kart race that I was part of a couple of years back. The stewards decided that they were going to apply the rule strictly as was written in the rule book. This was because people were intentionally hitting the kerbs to the point of going off track. They black flagged about 3/4 of the grid. This caused a huge argument between drivers and the officials, the officials were right because they were implementing the rules as written, and as they rightly said some people pushed to the limit of often going off track, those people were thus gaining an advantage by doing so and should be punished, hence the hard and fast approach to the rules.

Interestingly there is also the rule for many MSA kart tracks in which using an escape road no matter the circumstance will give you a 1 lap penalty. I have been found foul of this rule as I avoided a crash by going down an escape road (it cuts a chicane). The penalty was applied, however unfair this rule seems it was known to everyone and therefore much fairer then everything being decided on a case by case basis.

The above is much more logical that the current approach in which the rules are applied soley on how the steward is feeling.

With all due respect karting is not F1. In F1 the drivers are treated differently based on it being the number one open seat series in the world, they are shown the respect they deserve. Even in GP2 drivers are treated differently to F1 and they use a very similar sporting regulations rule book.

 

[JGreens]

Because the Merc didn't have the tires at all in the First stint.

Then Merc should of helped the greater good by ruining RBR. After all, the remaining races are salvage races to a championship long gone. Another season for the garbage pile.

I'm not here to give you an English lesson, if I did I'd be here for the remainder of the year.

Now that is funny.

Your comments show everyone your a fool

Opinions, eh?

Also it's quite a cop-out for you to say WIN/WIN to save face, when you were still wrong.

Really? So the grand prix WAS a Vettel snooze-fest and a Vettel victory? Oh wait, it was neither! WIN/WIN!

Though your distane

I'm not here to give you an English lesson, if I did I'd be here for the remainder of the year.

IRONY.

you still said (which I showed) a prediction that Vettel would walk away with this

Still more than happy to say that I was wrong that I thought Vettel would win! Because he DIDN'T! 👍

Vettel is the golden child with a silver spoon that RBR give him. Oh and my favorite from you..."SEASON IS OVER".

Which is all true and correct.

 

[lbsf1]

With all due respect karting is not F1. In F1 the drivers are treated differently based on it being the number one open seat series in the world, they are shown the respect they deserve. Even in GP2 drivers are treated differently to F1 and they use a very similar sporting regulations rule book.

They have the same rule book however and therefore the rules should be applied the same. This is once again where I disagree with you, the rules should be the rules and not have any leniency.

Also once you get to national level karting you would be surprised at the level it is at, the huge amount of money spent (for national you need bare minimum 40k per year.). Also when f1 drivers have taken part in kart races you may be surprised to find that they don't always win, there are lots of drivers in karting who are very very good however don't have the funds to progress further. EG: A guy who only just won the cadet championship at my small local track is now a race winner in British formula 4 only 4 seasons later.

Whilst karting is nothing like the level F1 or GP2, it is much much more competitive, more difficult and serious then people imagine, and those who progress higher are not necessarily the best drivers.

I see your point on what you are saying however I still strongly disagree with what your argument. Agree to disagree on this??