2013 Formula One Hungarian Grand Prix

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Then Merc should of helped the greater good by ruining RBR. After all, the remaining races are salvage races to a championship long gone. Another season for the garbage pile.



Now that is funny. :lol:




Opinions, eh?



Really? So the grand prix WAS a Vettel snooze-fest and a Vettel victory? Oh wait, it was neither! WIN/WIN!




IRONY. :lol:



Still more than happy to say that I was wrong that I thought Vettel would win! Because he DIDN'T! 👍



Which is all true and correct.

You talk a load of bollocks.
 
Really? So the grand prix WAS a Vettel snooze-fest and a Vettel victory? Oh wait, it was neither! WIN/WIN!


Still more than happy to say that I was wrong that I thought Vettel would win! Because he DIDN'T! 👍 .

Clearly you can't follow a post, I was saying you can't call win/win because your prediction was wrong that Vettel would walk away. It may be a win for your viewing pleasure, but the words you wrote were wrong and you admitted it. Do you need a math lesson though? Cause I think you'd be hard pressed to prove to us how this season can be called over with, after this GP. Maybe you should wait till India or U.S. GP, even if your prediction is right it isn't fact at this point like you keep saying every week.

You talk a load of bollocks.

Don't waste your time, I've already had to head over to the medicine cabinet to grab some aspirin. Which is sad since it is only 9 AM over here.

Akmuq please don't do it, or you'll end up like me.

@JGreens: Also yes, I did a typo, so I can say we're both human. You are right JGreens, sadly if only it were more of a regular event for you...
 
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They have the same rule book however and therefore the rules should be applied the same. This is once again where I disagree with you, the rules should be the rules and not have any leniency.

Also once you get to national level karting you would be surprised at the level it is at, the huge amount of money spent (for national you need bare minimum 40k per year.). Also when f1 drivers have taken part in kart races you may be surprised to find that they don't always win, there are lots of drivers in karting who are very very good however don't have the funds to progress further. EG: A guy who only just won the cadet championship at my small local track is now a race winner in British formula 4 only 4 seasons later.

Whilst karting is nothing like F1 or GP2 it is much much more competitive and more difficult then people imagine, and those who progress higher are not necessarily the best drivers.

I see your point on what you are saying however I still strongly disagree with what your argument. Agree to disagree on this??

But in F1 the rule is different. There is nothing in the rule that says "When a driver exceeds the track X happens". It's up to the stewards to decide what happens when the rule is broken. It's no different to many other rules.

F1 is also a spectacle, one of the biggest on TV in the world. Whilst following the rulebook exactly at your local kart meet and banning 3/4 of the field might be ok it's really not going to work in F1. Are you going to give a drive through to every driver on the grid, multiple times a race? No, it would be silly so as I said clearly between the FIA and the drivers and agreement is in place as to how the rule will be enforced.

You may not like it but it is fair if all of the drivers are aware of it and they're all treated equally, which they were.
 
Great win by hamilton, got to be the fastest driver in f1 today, they've really turned the Mercedes into a championship contending car, lets hope they keep this up
 
Alonso is under investigation for using DRS while more than one second behind the car ahead.

Surely like all previous similar DRS issues this that will be put down to a technical issue and no further action taken. It's not something they could have done on purpose.
 
You may not like it but it is fair if all of the drivers are aware of it and they're all treated equally, which they were.

Well the fact that the Lotus team and Anthony Davidson thought the penalty to be unfair dissproves your theory on that everyone is happy with the inconsistencies.

As said they arn't following the rules, they may have the same inconsistencies (slight contradiction there) each time however that still doesn't mean what they are doing is correct.

Yes the rule does not specify a penalty however considering the drivers committed the same infringement by roughly the same amount then surely they should be given the same punishment.

As said I see what your point is however I still disagree, the rules for all circuit racing are the same (once at national level) and therefore should all be applied consistently. In formula one the rule is being applied inconsistently and not in accordance with the written rules. If the rules were applied then yes the drivers would get multiple penalties per race (they don't have to be drive through penalties though), however then maybe the drivers would drive in accordance with the rules??💡💡


EDIT: Think of it like scrutineering. If the car isn't complying with the rules then no matter or not whether they gained an advantage then are penalised. However the rules have provisions for extenuating circumstances (in the case of track limits this would be avoiding an collision.). Currently there are no extenuating circumstances in the rules for track limits and therefore the drivers should be penalised for each time they break the rule.
 
Obviously Lotus will feel it was unfair. It was against their driver.

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I think it's a whole lot of nothing to get worked up about. Obviously, you can't go punishing everyone who accidentally leaves the track. And that's how it is for all the major racing series wherein the track is surrounded by kerbs and grass instead of walls.

To follow the scrutineering example... Lotus was NOT penalized for their car not passing the floor test because it was obviously damaged by kerb contact. If the rule was not intentionally broken, or was broken for reasons outside of the team's control, then there should be no penalty for breaking it.

This is why they punish people for running out of gas during qualifying, but not during the race.
 
Well the fact that the Lotus team and Anthony Davidson thought the penalty to be unfair dissproves your theory on that everyone is happy with the inconsistencies.

I didn't say everyone was happy, I said everyone was aware of how the rule was operated. They can still not like it but they know what the situation is.

As said they arn't following the rules, they may have the same inconsistencies (slight contradiction there) each time however that still doesn't mean what they are doing is correct.

They are following the rules. They are just using their descretion on how the rule breaking is acted upon.

Yes the rule does not specify a penalty however considering the drivers committed the same infringement by roughly the same amount then surely they should be given the same punishment.

Roughly the same amount? Do you see the problem here? As I said already as long as the driver doesn't make a hugely visible advantage the stewards let it slide.

As said I see what your point is however I still disagree, the rules for all circuit racing are the same (once at national level) and therefore should all be applied consistently.

Not in F1 they're not. Not in many events actually. In BTCC watch a race at Knockhill, all drivers will cut the chicane and it's accepted by the stewards. However get to Croft and drivers were getting penalised for cutting the white line on the exit of Sunny out.

It's not a rule that is applied equally across all tracks and events because tracks and corners are all different.

In formula one the rule is being applied inconsistently and not in accordance with the written rules. If the rules were applied then yes the drivers would get multiple penalties per race (they don't have to be drive through penalties though), however then maybe the drivers would drive in accordance with the rules??💡💡

The rules are being FOLLOWED. The stewards and race director use their discretion for how they're applied.

I mean if cars were penalised whenever they went beyond the track, how are you going to police it? What if a driver says he got oversteer and he didn't go over the white line on purpose? What if a driver says he slowed down to counter the off track? It would open a huge can of worms.

EDIT: Think of it like scrutineering. If the car isn't complying with the rules then no matter or not whether they gained an advantage then are penalised. However the rules have provisions for extenuating circumstances (in the case of track limits this would be avoiding an collision.). Currently there are no extenuating circumstances in the rules for track limits and therefore the drivers should be penalised for each time they break the rule.

Like I said, rules are all applied differently. Some are hard and fast, some are decided by discretion. That's just the way it is and it isn't going to change any time soon.
 
so sad to see murrays speech there at the end, he knows hes nearing to the end of his days, never be another like him
 
So did anyone hear what "Fail 22" means?
Great race, really enjoyed it.

Yeah I don't know, it was said to both drivers. I doubt it was a team order given their positions, Webber wasn't even close to Vettel at the time and they wouldn't really need to let Vettel know what they were doing either, if they were in fact telling Webber to back off.
 
Yeah I don't know, it was said to both drivers. I doubt it was a team order given their positions, Webber wasn't even close to Vettel at the time and they wouldn't really need to let Vettel know what they were doing either, if they were in fact telling Webber to back off.

Maybe it is saying a fail in both their strategies. I mean Multi 21 was multiple finish car 2 ahead of car 1. So maybe Fail 22 is forget the the two stop, without letting other teams know they were giving up the two stop effort?

I don't know just doing some weekend sleuthing here.
 
I didn't say everyone was happy, I said everyone was aware of how the rule was operated. They can still not like it but they know what the situation is.
NO, they know what the rule book says, what the stewards are doing is inconsistent.

They are following the rules. They are just using their descretion on how the rule breaking is acted upon.
Right, so its fine to break the rules as long as its only by a little bit.

Roughly the same amount? Do you see the problem here? As I said already as long as the driver doesn't make a hugely visible advantage the stewards let it slide.

Grosjean was about 2cm wide of the line, many other drivers were also 2cm wide of the line but not punished. They commited the same infridgement by the same amount however were treated differently.

Not in F1 they're not. Not in many events actually. In BTCC watch a race at Knockhill, all drivers will cut the chicane and it's accepted by the stewards. However get to Croft and drivers were getting penalised for cutting the white line on the exit of Sunny out.
Yep, agreed they are treated differently even though the rules are the same. Even at knockhill there were questions asked last time about should they have 1 wheel on track at all times, the stewards didn't inforce that where they should have.


It's not a rule that is applied equally across all tracks and events because tracks and corners are all different.
The tracks arn't the same however they white lines are painted to show where they are meant to stay, why have these white lines if you are then going to ignore them.


The rules are being FOLLOWED. The stewards and race director use their discretion for how they're applied.
What about the 15 or so drivers that broke the rule today then but weren't penalised?

I mean if cars were penalised whenever they went beyond the track, how are you going to police it? What if a driver says he got oversteer and he didn't go over the white line on purpose? What if a driver says he slowed down to counter the off track? It would open a huge can of worms.
If car is seen to be over track limits then a penalty is given, if he oversteered off track then what did he do, ah he broke the rule because he went off track, ok then he gets a penalty, as you said if there was a wall there then he would have hit it.

Like I said, rules are all applied differently. Some are hard and fast, some are decided by discretion. That's just the way it is and it isn't going to change any time soon.
But their rules and therefore you can't have two people break the same rule by exactly the same amount then you can't give one a penalty and then one not simply because of "discretion".

Anyway. Neither of us are going to ever agree on this, so as I said before agree to disagree?? because otherwise we are going to carry on all night.
 
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That was an awesome race! I'm so pleased Hamilton won. :D

Unfortunate for Grosjean as i feel he put in a really good performance, and unlucky for Rosberg, for suffering bad luck. It was good to see Jenson up there, especially considering Mclarens less than stellar car, this year. And 'Shark Finn' Kimi, impressed me too, good to see he took all of Vettels challenges in his stride.
 
Grosjean was about 2cm wide of the line, many other drivers were also 2cm wide of the line but not punished. They commited the same infridgement by the same amount however were treated differently.
It's relevant to note that when Vettel was defending his position from Grosjean earlier in the race, he consistently ran wide and well over the white lines at many corners. Very specifically he ran several inches wide at turn 4 defending his place from Grosjean and had he not done that he wouldn't have kept his place.

The actual rule is quite clear - the lines define the track. What the stewards define as gaining an advantage is what should be examined. Although Grosjean was only able to complete his pass by running wide - preserving an advantage - there was a car there preventing him from being any nearer to the track lest a large collision occurred. Vettel was similarly only able to maintain his position - preserving an advantage - by repeatedly running wide at the same corner with no obstacle or danger forcing him there...
 
Well, if Grosjean already was in front, did the stewards expect him to simply back off or even crash into Massa just to stay on track?

Come on Mr. McNish, you've been in the business long enough to know this stuff through and through.
 
What about running off the track to stay close to the car ahead? Isn't this "gaining an advantage" because you're more likely to get DRS, which increases your chances of overtaking.
 
I forget how vastly straight the Hungaroring is. Doesn't it hold like the longest straight on the grid? Vettel had his opportunities and FLOUNDERED them. I'd expect better from a "champion", I'd put money on drivers like Hamilton & Alonso to get the job done.

Actually, Monaco, Silverstone and Singapore are the only circuits on the calendar without longer straights than the Hungaroring. Also, Vettel took all those opportunities, he made several passes, including ones outside of DRS zones.
 
Top drive from Lewis and an exciting race overall, shame we didn't see Lewis pass Button early on though.

I hope to see Kimi and Lewis challenge Vettel for the title. Spa can't come soon enough.

Grosean made some errors but I thought he did well at the start of the race. Vettel pushed him very close indeed and he held on strong and precise. Perhaps some small improvement.

Don't see any problem with what Kimi did near the end, actually he just drove the race line and Vettel had no track left after a hopeful attempt. I hope Vettel can look at the replay and see there was absolutley nothing doing. Also hope RedBull didn't bother getting on to Charlie for that.
 
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Spa can't come soon enough.
Oh, don't worry about that, there's only another TWENTY EIGHT days to go! 👎

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Actually, Monaco, Silverstone and Singapore are the only circuits on the calendar without longer straights than the Hungaroring. Also, Vettel took all those opportunities, he made several passes, including ones outside of DRS zones.

Really? I would have thought a track like Monza would have the longest considering the top speeds they reach.
 
Really? I would have thought a track like Monza would have the longest considering the top speeds they reach.

I think you misread, he said without. Apparently the longest is Shanghai's back straight but other sources say Korea's after T1.
 
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f40
Great drive all weekend by Hamilton, as per usual around this track. Vettel still looking strong for the title.

Hamilton really impressed this weekend, excellent qualifying lap and an almost flawless race, with some good overtaking action too.

I just looked at the standings though... I had no idea Vettel was that far ahead. It's kind of disappointing (If you're not a Vettel fan) when you consider how good the races have been this year. Vettel always seems to get it together in the races and finish high, regardless of any bad luck (Good examples of his ability to come out of nowhere would be Abu Dhabi and Brazil 2012). I just want to see somebody else leading the championship for a change, but Vettel won't let them.
 
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