2013 Petronas Malaysian Grand Prix

[Samus]

Let me guess, the realized it was fruitless to try and ban it as teams just became more sneaky and less obvious



Wow, F1 fans really see nothing wrong with happened today. No, Im not new to F1, but dont follow it that much because of stunts like today.

Can you imagine Nike telling Tiger Woods and Rory McIllroy to stop competing with each other for the lead at the end of the tournament so they dont make a mistake and let 3rd back into it? And then fans start hating on Tiger Woods for standing up against the "business" side of the sport and actually competing and ending up winning? Its so disgusting to me it just blows my mind. F1 is pretty much dead to me

No because Golf is not (primarily) a team sport so your comparison is invalid. F1 is a team sport and always has been.

 

[Centura]

Yeah, it took him a couple of laps, so he must've turned his engine back up.

And we don't know for sure if Vettel also turned down his engine at Silverstone in 2011. After all, Webber was a lot quicker than him, so it's likely Vettel had turned down his engine to bring the car back home.

I still think that what Vettel did was wrong. Team > Driver, even though the race would've been a lot less exciting. And I dislike Webber for the massive double standards, but I feel sorry for him. He drove really well and deserved that victory.

EDIT: I'm actually surprised how smart Vettel was during his overtake attempts, well, except for the part when squeezing himself between Webber and the pit wall.

 

[Wardez]

Let me guess, the realized it was fruitless to try and ban it as teams just became more sneaky and less obvious



Wow, F1 fans really see nothing wrong with happened today. No, Im not new to F1, but dont follow it that much because of stunts like today.

Can you imagine Nike telling Tiger Woods and Rory McIllroy to stop competing with each other for the lead at the end of the tournament so they dont make a mistake and let 3rd back into it? And then fans start hating on Tiger Woods for standing up against the "business" side of the sport and actually competing and ending up winning? Its so disgusting to me it just blows my mind. F1 is pretty much dead to me

Oh come on, you have to admit that all of this is still entertainment in the end. Everyone has their interests but don't try blowing it up like emotion is secondary to business. Otherwise these people would all be out doing much less riskier things than being on a race team, they're extremely passionate and hard working toward the racing, not just pleasing sponsors.

What's bad is how the spec tires take away from the racing and lead to the teams needing to make calls like this. It's nothing to do with business interest, the teams work hard to bring home both cars. That's why they need to make those decisions, not for corporate interest. What do you think these cars are? Some disposable Dallara chassis? No. There will be no, " let the boys race" bull****.

So F1's dead right? You wouldn't be happy with F1 even if this was the 80s or whatever era you claim was best, there's always bull**** involved, all you have to do is be able to ignore it and carry on with watching the real racing.

Yeah, it took him a couple of laps, so he must've turned his engine back up.

And we don't know for sure if Vettel also turned down his engine at Silverstone in 2011. After all, Webber was a lot quicker than him, so it's likely Vettel had turned down his engine to bring the car back home.

I still think that what Vettel did was wrong. Team > Driver, even though the race would've been a lot less exciting. And I dislike Webber for the massive double standards, but I feel sorry for him. He drove really well and deserved that victory.

EDIT: I'm actually surprised how smart Vettel was during his overtake attempts, well, except for the part when squeezing himself between Webber and the pit wall.

It's not a double standard man. They had this scenario planned out well before the lights went out. Silverstone was an on-the-fly decision which he ignored, which was a bad call in the first place. That's why Webber kept saying, "Multi 21" after this race. Does this not make sense? It's a stab in the back.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Let me guess, the realized it was fruitless to try and ban it as teams just became more sneaky and less obvious



Wow, F1 fans really see nothing wrong with happened today. No, Im not new to F1, but dont follow it that much because of stunts like today.

Can you imagine Nike telling Tiger Woods and Rory McIllroy to stop competing with each other for the lead at the end of the tournament so they dont make a mistake and let 3rd back into it? And then fans start hating on Tiger Woods for standing up against the "business" side of the sport and actually competing and ending up winning? Its so disgusting to me it just blows my mind. F1 is pretty much dead to me

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. The analogy you use isn't remotely the same. PGA isn't like Autosports, and it isn't F1 that only does this. It's been seen in Le Mans, Nascar and others. A driver or drivers are told to conserve at the very end due to the sure win. No reason to run on the limit to the end, smart racers and teams know when to race and when to pace them. But hey what do I know; I mean the people you're questioning only have tons of WCC's to their name. I mean Brawn has Benneton, Ferrari, Brawn GP. Horner with 3 at RBR, and Newey has nine. You have two drivers that at the end of the day are playing toward themselves, but much more toward the team effort.

Instead of ruling with emotion why don't you rule with reason? The teams saw it safer to tell Vettel to stay second and save tires, not waste them to a better tire team that Merc is. However, when they found out the Merc were low on gas they decided to further slow it down because there is no reason to risk the car and compromise a win, better yet 1-2. Merc on the other hand were doing the same thing it's better to bring in 27 points then have Nico run out of gas for a moot effort or Hamilton. That great that F1 is dead to you, us fans will keep enjoying the races.

Let me give you an analogy that actually works. It's like telling your star player on the team to pass the ball more instead of taking risky shots to pad his record. However, instead that player doesn't do it. Not only does it risk a team win but the bigger picture, a team championship title. There are plenty of sport now that I think about it, that coast at the end if the win is obvious and there is no reason to push it.

 

[gorsad]

Can you imagine Nike telling Tiger Woods and Rory McIllroy to stop competing with each other for the lead at the end of the tournament so they dont make a mistake and let 3rd back into it? And then fans start hating on Tiger Woods for standing up against the "business" side of the sport and actually competing and ending up winning? Its so disgusting to me it just blows my mind. F1 is pretty much dead to me

Well Golf doesn't have a constructor's (or team) championship does it. It's really every man for himself. There's not really many sports which would have this problem except motorsports (since there are 2 different championships). I guess the reason this doesn't happen in NASCAR and IndyCar is because there isn't a team championship, though there is a manufacturer's championship it doesn't really have the same impact as there are only around 3-4 manufacturers and they only get points from their highest placed car. The only solution to the problem of team orders, in my opinion, is to remove the constructor's championship and make it every driver for himself, but then there's really no point in teams then.

 

[Dr. P]

Let's remind each and one of ourself
Race: noun - a competition between runners, horses, vehicles, etc. to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

But also: a situation in which individuals or groups compete to be first to achieve a particular objective.

We can conclude that F1 has two separate races forming an own race of itself.
And all of this is nothing new to the F1 circus.

What amuses me was Webbers reaction, if you can't win, you can't win. Simple as that.
Hamilton did understand what happened and apologizes.

In the olden days, Häkkinen & Coulthard made an agreement (at least once) which one would came to the first corner first, would win the race. As they both started from front of the grid. A gentlemen's agreement, a clever one sort of as two racers have their own small race between each other, without (a big) risk ruining the race for both, but it's made within the racers from themselves, not from radio a voice telling "negative".

But in the end lets remind ourselves again,

Race: noun - a competition between runners, horses, vehicles, etc. to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

But also: a situation in which individuals or groups compete to be first to achieve a particular objective.

 

[zed300]

5. Worst comes to worst, RBR should set up a low drama way for the fastest racer to win, such as pitting them at different times. Of course, Webber came in at the same time as Seb specifically to avoid this.

I don't recall seeing both RBR cars in the pits at the same time. That would be stupid unless a full yellow was in place, which it wasn't.

IMO:The difference between Silverstone and Sepang, was MW in Silverstone, did not overtake (maybe he was trying or maybe just trying to put the ****s up SEB), but the result was, as the team asked of him. Sepang was not.

 

[Furinkazen]

Classic - Andy Blackmore's spotters guide response to Lewis and his problems.

 

[Sureboss]

Just saw the race and even as somebody who supports British drivers like Lewis, the end of the race was just a farce. Lost quite a bit of respect for Ross Brawn to be honest, I'm at a loss as to why they kept Hamilton out front; they could have let the faster car of Rosberg deservedly sit on the podium and still have their 3-4 finish.

Baffling.

Because that would have been any better? When at the point Rosberg was quicker was when Hamilton had the engined turned down and was saving fuel and tyres (as they both were, but gather Hamilton had more fuel to save), it would have been no fairer a fight and a token gesture that would have left the same feelings within the team just with different drivers.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Going back to Sebastian and Mark battle. People have to remember Mark has tried to do the same thing to Sebastian but has failed. Key thing is Sebastian normally gets the job done so this should blow over by next race hopefully. He has a good excuse as well, Hungry Heidi needed feeding.

 

[zzz_pt]

Drivers shouldn't be muppets of the their teams. I mean, they can have strategys for the race but having orders about their race position in relation to their teammates is just STUPID.

At the end of the day, the guy who risks his own body is the one who goes inside the car at 300km/h. You can't simply ignore his own will of be a racing driver and "go for the gap".

I lost some consideration for Ross Brown to.

 

[Imari]

Disappointing how the whole team orders thing turned out.

I dislike team orders at the best of times, they don't exactly make for good racing, but for better or worse they're part of the sport.

Shame about Mercedes, I think Rosberg deserved that podium but I've gotta hand it to Hamilton and Rosberg for doing what they were told. It's Ross Brawn's call to make, for better or worse and they stuck by it.

Vettel has apparently reverted to being a child for the weekend. He chose not to follow team orders, and has to understand that taking the lead from someone in car conservation mode who has been reassured that he's not going to be challenged by his team mate is not exactly impressive. I'm less impressed by his win that if he had come in second.

It's a shame, because if he's not the best driver on the grid he's certainly one of them. And he genuinely seems to be a kind, funny guy a lot of the time. But sometimes he is just a dick. If you're not going to follow team orders, at least give Mark fair warning and have at it like men.

 

[PeterJB]

I've never liked the team orders rule. The whole point of racing is that you race each other. This is a sport, so entertainment comes first (after safety of course), and their's nothing entertaining about a fixed top 4 result. Vettel was faster than Webber, so he had every right to try and pass him. Rosberg was faster than Hamilton, so he had every right to try and pass him too.

Vettel's attitude confused me somewhat too. He said he wasn't happy about the win, yet he seemed pretty happy when he crossed the finish line. And he said that he 'messed up', yet it's hard to see doing a pass that took quite a lot of effort as 'messing up'.

 

[NINE_HUNDRED]

Vettel's attitude confused me somewhat too. He said he wasn't happy about the win, yet he seemed pretty happy when he crossed the finish line. And he said that he 'messed up', yet it's hard to see doing a pass that took quite a lot of effort as 'messing up'.

Because him saying that in front of the media makes him look a bit better. He can't exactly start saying "yes this was the best win of my career" etc etc, he'd get shot down so fast.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns25083.html
http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/104243.html

It's obvious Vettel is a prick. But ALL racing drivers are pricks - I'm one and I've been hanging around with them for 50 years, so I know.

But Vettel is a little something more: emotional, immature, undisciplined, unprofessional, and lacking respect for his team and fellow drivers. Even so, I'm glad I bet on him and not Webber to win the race. The age of honor and chivalry died with the Knighthood, if it ever existed at all. His words mean nothing.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Dustone]

Drivers shouldn't be muppets of the their teams. I mean, they can have strategys for the race but having orders about their race position in relation to their teammates is just STUPID.

At the end of the day, the guy who risks his own body is the one who goes inside the car at 300km/h. You can't simply ignore his own will of be a racing driver and "go for the gap".

I lost some consideration for Ross Brown to.

Makes perfect sence. The drivers are free to race all they want up until the last pit stop. The agreement is/was after that stop they remain. Its not like theyre not allowed to race the whole time.

 

[zzz_pt]

^ Yes, but the race doesn't end in the las pit stop ^^

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Vettel has apparently reverted to being a child for the weekend. He chose not to follow team orders, and has to understand that taking the lead from someone in car conservation mode who has been reassured that he's not going to be challenged by his team mate is not exactly impressive. I'm less impressed by his win that if he had come in second.

It's a shame, because if he's not the best driver on the grid he's certainly one of them. And he genuinely seems to be a kind, funny guy a lot of the time. But sometimes he is just a dick.

There's two face of Vettel, one when he's in the car, one when he's out. But he didnt reverted or anything, he usually doesnt botter much with what his team are saying to him. Beeing to not overtake someone or slow down because his engineer is telling him to. When he is in the car he's the boss and that's not bad I think for once and he got 3 wdc to back him up aswell. How many times in 2011 he had the race won and Guillaume Roquelin (his engine engineer) told him to slow down to save the engine and the next lap he did a lap record. It happen quite a few times last year as well. As soon as he is out of the car, he's the nicest guy you can find. I dont really like him or support him but he was pretty funny on Top Gear which was the only time I saw him out of F1 duty.

I really dont think he cares if anyone find him impressive or not, his goal is to win the WDC not to impress people he doesnt even know.

As for team order I dont like them but I understand them. Even if Rosberg had the right to overtake Hamilton, he's paid by Mercedes quite a bit, Mercedes is putting their brand on the line, they need result more than any other top team atm, so yes the situation was unfair, however if Rosberg had overtaken Lewis and **** had happen, there could have been 0 points for Mercedes. Again I really dont like team strategy however if you look at the team perspective it's safer to have both driver finish 3rd and 4th than having a risk that both driver take out each others.

I lost some consideration for Ross Brown to.

You obviously dont know Ross Brawn because he used and abused of that strategy with Schumacher at Ferrari.

 

[zzz_pt]

You obviously dont know Ross Brawn because he used and abused of that strategy with Schumacher at Ferrari.

1st year of Lewis in Mercedes.
Mercedes said they don't have 1st and 2nd driver.
Rosberg is prohibited of overtake Lewis (without any risk) - to the team would be the same thing/same points


Not very consistent.

 

[Seismica]

1st year of Lewis in Mercedes.
Mercedes said they don't have 1st and 2nd driver.
Rosberg is prohibited of overtake Lewis (without any risk) - to the team would be the same thing/same points


Not very consistent.

I can see it from his point of view. He is under real pressure from his bosses to deliver. That means getting a better position in the Constructor's standings. They had a very competitive car at the start of last year, but they finished 5th; over 150 points off Lotus in 4th place. Brawn knows there is a chance history might repeat itself, so he wanted to bring both cars home for the finish and grab as many points as possible whilst their car is still competitive and whilst Alonso and both Mclarens were out of the picture.

He knows how hard a racer Lewis can be. Ross knew that if he had let them race, Lewis would have turned his engine up and it would have been touch and go until the finish, or until Lewis ran out of fuel. Bearing in mind that a few laps before this, Vettel and Webber were scrapping over the lead and nearly collided on more than one occasion. This set off alarm bells for Brawn, knowing that just one small mistake and they could throw away the best haul of constructor's points in one race that they have had since 2009. He had to play it safe.

I don't agree with him, it seems he was trying to keep Lewis sweet by gifting him the podium, knowing that they risked losing the constuctor's points if Lewis turned up his engine to give chase. Rosberg was faster and he should have been released to have a go at the quarralling Red Bulls. Who knows? Pressure from Rosberg could have caused they to overwork their tyres and ultimately lose a position or two. I understand exactly why Brawn did it though, and I have immense respect for Rosberg for following those team orders. Vettel on the other hand...

 

[zzz_pt]

They could just let Rosberg pass Lewis and not racing each other. Lewis would continue in his slow rithm to save fuel and tires and Rosberg could go a bit more comfortable in 3rd.

But well... in 3 weeks we'll get some action again I think if Alonso had finished the race none of this would have happened. xD

 

[nissman]

Can someone please explain Mark's ''Multi 21'' comment. I don't get it.

 

[mr_geez]

I don't understand all the hate for team orders. They are in motorsport since the beginning (example Fangio vs Moss @Silverstone in 1955) and always will be. Completely different topic is the compliance of drivers to act as teams want.

Even if you "ban" them in the rulebook it won't change the fact that teams/team executives will find a way to force them on the drivers through other, more creative ways than just simple radio message.

As for Sebastian Vettel. I really don't like him, but I have to say that he showed who is the boss in RBR (although there is no surprise here,really). Why did he do it? Because he knew there would be no consequences. Those PR apologies after the race? Please, I haven't read something so insincere in a long time. He is the triple and reigning world champion, poster boy of Red Bull Racing. He wants to show everybody that he'll be ruthless no matter the situation.

The main culprit of the whole situation is Mark Webber's naivety. Basically you are an Aussie in a German racing team, where by past experience you should always watch your back. He didn't do it and he is relegated back to being a sidekick. No main billing for you Mark.

 

[Centura]

It's not a double standard man. They had this scenario planned out well before the lights went out. Silverstone was an on-the-fly decision which he ignored, which was a bad call in the first place. That's why Webber kept saying, "Multi 21" after this race. Does this not make sense? It's a stab in the back.

Team orders are team orders. Both chose to ignore them.

 

[Forster]

Can someone please explain Mark's ''Multi 21'' comment. I don't get it.

It's code for stay in position.

My opinion I think the "multi" means multiple finish and the "21" stands for the car numbers, i.e. Mark (Car 2) first, Seb (Car 1) 2nd.

If they wanted Seb first it would be 'Multi 12'.

 

[Dustone]

^ Yes, but the race doesn't end in the las pit stop ^^

Not for us but for the teams that have both their drivers up together they do. It may seem wrong but if you look at it from their perspective it makes perfect sense.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

1st year of Lewis in Mercedes.
Mercedes said they don't have 1st and 2nd driver.
Rosberg is prohibited of overtake Lewis (without any risk) - to the team would be the same thing/same points


Not very consistent.

The things is that the order to stay in the same position was given by Ross Brawn, however there's already article today that Niki Lauda and Toto Wolff dont agree with it and will apparently talk to Brawn about it. Brawn himself isnt Mercedes.

And no like I explain it's not the same risk. Lewis is a winner like Vettel, he probably wouldnt had let Rosberg pass like that. Brawn dont know him well enough yet. So again Brawn decision make sens, you better have 2 cars at the end than all other scenario that can come up. Maybe it would have been Rosberg 3 or better and Lewis 4 but maybe they would have been 0 mercedes at the end or 1 etc... I think Ross Brawn took this decision because he felt it was the best for the team at that moment. Just look at Brawn reaction when Lewis and Nico were fighting on both DRS zone, he was scared that something might happen. You have to take in count also that Mercedes resumé isnt what they what at all after 3 years in f1, the direction of Mercedes the car company doesnt really like how it was going until 2013 so yeah there's also that.

I understand it's frustrating from a spectator point of view however it was the safer way for Mercedes to score big points.

 

[nissman]

It's code for stay in position.

My opinion I think the "multi" means multiple finish and the "21" stands for the car numbers, i.e. Mark (Car 2) first, Seb (Car 1) 2nd.

If they wanted Seb first it would be 'Multi 12'.

Oh ok...thx mate.

 

[SkengD]

Multi 21 is actually a engine code setting that they do with the wheel to turn down the engine to save fuel etc , thats what i heard but ....

Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[phil bell]

Let's remind each and one of ourself
Race: noun - a competition between runners, horses, vehicles, etc. to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

But also: a situation in which individuals or groups compete to be first to achieve a particular objective.

We can conclude that F1 has two separate races forming an own race of itself.
And all of this is nothing new to the F1 circus.

In the olden days, Häkkinen & Coulthard made an agreement (at least once) which one would came to the first corner first, would win the race. As they both started from front of the grid. A gentlemen's agreement, a clever one sort of as two racers have their own small race between each other, without (a big) risk ruining the race for both, but it's made within the racers from themselves, not from radio a voice telling "negative".

But in the end lets remind ourselves again,

Race: noun - a competition between runners, horses, vehicles, etc. to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

But also: a situation in which individuals or groups compete to be first to achieve a particular objective.

I agree. But apparently F1 is all about team only now and sod the drivers championship they say.
Aside from seeing the last part of this race, havent seen F1 for quite some time.
Based on what I read it might be good Ive gone on to other types of racing.