2013 Petronas Malaysian Grand Prix

[Barra333]

Who was that team?

I agree with everything else you stated, but the bit where Button is an underdog I didn't agree with. He's a world champion, true he's not as fast as Vettel or Hamilton but he has brains and is still quicker than most drivers out there.

I like Button because he is straight talking guy, to the media and to the fans.

Benetton.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Who was that team?

Benetton and Leyton House respectively.

 

[Wardez]

There's no way Vettel will leave RBR in its current state.

Even if they let Mark tar and feather him at the factory, he'll stay around.

Vettel's problem is that he wanted to send a message to the team in saying he wants to be clear humber one but he doesn't realize how hard they worked to turn Mark into a team player again after all of the previous incidents they've gone through before. It's such a delicate balancing act for them. But they really need to just end all the BS, lay their cards out like Ferrari do, and admit they give Sebastien preferential treatment and have an agenda with him in mind.

It's not like being a #2 means you can't win, everything will be the same, but things will be much more understood for all parties and will save from things such as this from happening again. Vettel's spoiled and all he wants is recognition of the last thing that's still supposedly up in the air, at least within the team, that he's their guy.

I'd even wager to say that had RBR admitted this and made things clear earlier, Vettel would've been much more willing to play along in Malaysia and would've been fine with second. It's about the win, it's about sending a message. A message to the team and Mark that he's done pretending and wants them to put Mark in his place or they're only going to get more of the same.

They need to talk to Webber, keeping nothing hidden, and come to an agreement that, barring some crazy circumstances that causes Vettel to lose all hope for another WDC, they're gonna put him first for the good of the team. And yes, Mark's always been happy to take that role when necessary, but it'll be a tough order trying to get him to play nice now that Vettel shamelessly went through with this act in order to kick him while he was down.

I don't know what'll come of it, but I feel like some pretty hefty compromises will have to be made, 'cause I would do everything I could not to lose Mark if I was them.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

There's no way Vettel will leave RBR in its current state

Red Bull's "current state" is changing along with every other team's at the end of the 2013 season with the new engines. And if you had to pick one of out of Merc, Ferrari, Honda and Renault to get the new engines wrong, I should think Renault would be the most likely of the group to have a problem. Chances are they'll all get it right, mind, but if one doesn't, it won't matter how good the chassis it's riding in may be.

 

[Wardez]

Renault has the least chance of messing it up, they have the most money, have plenty of experience running V6 turbos as a company and experience at the front of the pack.

I'd be more afraid of Ferrari getting it wrong with their limited, recent, experience running forced induction and V6s.

Honda's not in the game till 2015 at the earliest, no telling how well they'll do, but judging through history and what they're good at, it should be great.

The only thing I'd be afraid of with the all new RB10 is that it may be unreliable. It took them a while to get the kinks out of the RB6 and beyond series of cars, so it could be a reset in that department.

Still, with everyone in their place, I highly doubt Vettel will go anywhere until 2017 when Alonso's out, but things could change drastically at any time up to that point.

 

[Terronium-12]

I've actually just changed my tune when it comes to this RB incident.

I'm now on RB's side, with a lean towards Vettel for this particular race, and I'll tell you why.

Webber was ignoring team orders before, as Centura rightly pointed out, and indeed has double standards. Mark's being pretentious.

Perhaps. I won't doubt that there are double standards to some extent, even with myself, but you also have to remember that Vettel is the golden child in the eyes of Helmut Marko and you could even argue rightfully so, but with his scathing comments regarding Webber I think his issues ultimately lie more with spitting in Marko's face than anything else.

Although I will add what Vettel did surely didn't help any of the "bad blood" between them, whether directly aimed at Vettel or not.

The reason I didn't give the incident from 2011, where Mark ignored team orders and tried passing Vettel, enough credence was because I was under the impression that the team order was different to the one they gave in Malaysia this year. I thought the difference was that there had been no prior plan in place, 'Multi 21,' in the Silverstone 2011 event, but there was!

Webber totally tried stabbing Vettel, and the team, in the back.

That he did. And I had no problem with it because I know fully well Mark isn't the type of person to just rollover and play dead for their teammate, however, I'm also well aware of the fact that regardless of the circumstance there might be this need to, again, spit in Marko's face as many times as possible. As to say "this is your number one driver but I'll be damned if I'm going to hand him every victory like you think I should."

I should also point out that I had absolutely no problem with Vettel overtaking Mark in Malaysia until I found out the circumstances that permitted it in the first place.

And Mark freely admits to ignoring the order, as if this makes things better?

Again, and I'll bring this up a lot as I sincerely believe it to Mark's driving force, I don't think it was meant to be an apology of any kind, it was simply meant to be a big "🤬 you" to Marko whether he succeeded or not.

Why do we as fans carry a double-standard for him? 'cause we should feel sorry for him? That's the only reason I can think of, well unless you're Australian as well I suppose. But even then, you should support him, not blindly permit him all of this behavior.

I'll freely admit I'm biased toward Webber, but I'm also not going to sit here and pretend he's faster than Vettel on the whole of the season; Vettel's faster, he's far more consistent of a pole sitter and race winner which just irks me even further that he had to display that childish attitude in Malaysia.

It was a complete joke.

Webber did it first, Vettel was just getting his right revenge.

Payback's a bitch.

Agreed. But (and do correct me if I'm wrong as I can't remember every single thing from the 2011 season) but were they not both in an engine mapping that permitted maximum performance? And if they were than Mark genuinely lost out on the opportunity to overtake given the amount of laps left to race.

Really not the same thing when one driver is running a fuel efficiency mapping while the other snakes an overtake with a performance mapping. That doesn't gel with me.

 

[Wardez]

That's the thing you see: Mark went for it because he knew Vettel's KERS was broken, so he thought he had an easy lunch, had there been a couple more laps, he might have.

Agreed on your points though, especially how Webber's actions were more for Marko and company than anyone else. I hope the good doctor now realizes what a flurry of reaction he's caused by running things as he was. Again, this is me blaming the bosses for not being straight up enough. Hopefully all the teams can take a lesson out of this. No one wants to be told they're a number two, especially somewhere like Mercedes where both drivers have almost the same potential. But they all have to lay out clear and defined plans for what happens once one of the drivers starts to pull an obvious advantage over the other so drivers like Vettel don't feel like they need to take matters into their own hands.

 

[Terronium-12]

I agree. Webber's essentially become the new Barrichello.

The way it is now though, if it comes down to Webber having to play the role of points buffer preventing a close rival from stealing the championship away from Vettel by mere points it's simply not going to happen.

I'm of the genuine opinion that if Webber doesn't renew with Red Bull for the 2014 season, and Massa is indeed on his way out (which given his already fantastic performances isn't likely to happen) he could find himself with Ferrari and become their worse nightmare. Of course this is ignoring his blatant tendency to disregard team orders... something Ferrari won't like.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think I must say this after reading what Wardez and Terronium-12 said. I think the bigger issue is all the crap streamed over the winter and what not from Helmut, and just the general history that upset Mark. If they were as fresh and Lewis and Nico, he would have probably had the same normal attitude as Rosberg post race, understanding yet somewhat upset.

However, you have Helmut out there saying crap to Mark because if it were up to him, Mark would have probably been gone after 2011. Then you have Mark already feeling like the second driver, and this just blew it up. Also the fact that he feels Vettel is entitled and can't even respect a simple team order and has to be the golden boy and "shine" (for lack of better terms).

 

[Wardez]

Seriously. I can't imagine where he'd go if he left after this year too well though. I would love it if him and Grosjean swapped places. Lotus would be the most bad ass team.

But yeah, this season's going to be pretty intense with all the drama with RBR already starting off.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Seriously. I can't imagine where he'd go if he left after this year too well though. I would love it if him and Grosjean swapped places. Lotus would be the most bad ass team.

But yeah, this season's going to be pretty intense with all the drama with RBR already starting off.

I think he'd go back home and just pro-surf it...

Nah he might go back to Le Mans I'm sure he's over the back flipping syndrome in a prototype car. Or maybe he'll run a V8 Supercar who knows. I think he is just tired of it all but I think he is going to give it a real run for the WDC after this past race.

 

[Terronium-12]

It'd be something if Webber out-qualified, out-raced, and out-paced Vettel for the remainder of the season.

I'm not trying to say he's been holding back because "LOL Conspiracy" I'm just saying it'd be quite the spectacle. He could give Marko a modified version of Vettel's "winning finger".

 

[SkengD]

The only way Webber can beat Vettel is if he gets equal equipment and we know that he doesn't and hasn't for a long time .

 

[RACECAR]

I get the feeling that Red Bull won't win this season because of this rift. Every other team has their drivers pretty much focused for this season while these two are clearly fighting each other (all the while developing friction with their own bosses, who now have two drivers that are officially not taking orders anymore). I'm expecting Turkey 2011 to happen again.

 

[Imari]

The only way Webber can beat Vettel is if he gets equal equipment and we know that he doesn't and hasn't for a long time .

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Where there's limited parts, the new/better bits go on Vettel's car. That precedent is well set.

But where they have enough parts I seriously doubt the team is shooting themselves in the foot by deliberately crippling Webber's car. That would be moronic.

There's no reason at all for the team to give Webber inferior machinery unless there's absolutely no other choice. They want both drivers at the front because it gives them the most options. Even if those options are slanted towards Vettel, which I'm not convinced they are at this point in the year.

 

[HKS racer]

I'm also tired of seeing this brought up over and over again. Why is that people think its funny for a drinks company to own an F1 team? Has everyone forgotten when a fashion company owned an F1 team and won 2 WDCs and 1 WCC?
Or the Japanese estate company that almost won a race?

Making roadcars almost means nothing in F1. There is no carryover. There hasn't been for a long, long time, basically going back to the 80s. And even then, it was only because manufacturers tended own their own engine companies/specialists and engines actually mattered.
So the idea that a road car manufacturer can be beaten by "just a drinks company" is not that funny to me. It makes a lot of sense actually considering who is more likely to be doing well financially, etc.

The point is simple, a real car enthusiast could prefer a real car instead of a non automotive team. You could drive a Ferrari, a Mercedes a McLaren. You can't go in your local store buy a redbull and pretend to drive it. Oh and I have a *TIP* for you: some kind of sense of humor is needed when reading a meme.

 

[Wardez]

I'm expecting Turkey 2011 to happen again.

That was 2010.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Where there's limited parts, the new/better bits go on Vettel's car. That precedent is well set.

But where they have enough parts I seriously doubt the team is shooting themselves in the foot by deliberately crippling Webber's car. That would be moronic.

There's no reason at all for the team to give Webber inferior machinery unless there's absolutely no other choice. They want both drivers at the front because it gives them the most options. Even if those options are slanted towards Vettel, which I'm not convinced they are at this point in the year.

Not crippling his car, but simply not giving him the first round of upgrades that may or may not be faster. Vettel prefers to be the guinea pig car in taking the riskier add ons while Webber stays with what he knows works. This is why Webber was ahead for the first half of last year and why he did so much better with the tweaked rear end in the later half of 2010. The RB7 was built perfectly for Vettel though, which is why 2011 happened.

But you can bring up all kinds of little events in which they sacrificed Webber's car, or parts of his car for Vettel, or the pit strategy, or used Webber as a test dummy to feel out tire changes and such. But yeah, still exaggerated a bit.

Speaking of Webber, this just in!

http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/no-new-f1-contract-for-webber-in-2014-season/

This is his last year in RBR according to Bild!
Yes, that's a joke. Bild is pretty much a tabloid that languishes on rumor.

 

[Terronium-12]

Or one could identify the irony (and perhaps satire given the article's nature that you've mentioned) of Flavio Briatore commenting on something that's controversial.

Flavio. Briatore.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The point is simple, a real car enthusiast could prefer a real car instead of a non automotive team. You could drive a Ferrari, a Mercedes a McLaren. You can't go in your local store buy a redbull and pretend to drive it. Oh and I have a *TIP* for you: some kind of sense of humor is needed when reading a meme.

Hell yeah you can, I race my RB can against hot wheels all the time on my kitchen table. My wife shakes her head at me, and the can is a dog of a car...but I drive it

It'd be something if Webber out-qualified, out-raced, and out-paced Vettel for the remainder of the season.

I'm not trying to say he's been holding back because "LOL Conspiracy" I'm just saying it'd be quite the spectacle. He could give Marko a modified version of Vettel's "winning finger".

Indeed it would, it would be like a shot in the leg, just that extra bit that only real fired up emotion can give. However, we have to wait sadly to see if this happens in China. Oh why must we wait so long!?

 

[SkengD]

Only if Webber didnt crash in Korea 2010 in the rain , he would be a world champ and who knows if he would still be with RedBull , I think he would be with Ferrari now

 

[avens]

Why can't the next race be today? Haven't been really looking forward to the subsequent one in years.

The point is simple, a real car enthusiast could prefer a real car instead of a non automotive team. You could drive a Ferrari, a Mercedes a McLaren. You can't go in your local store buy a redbull and pretend to drive it. Oh and I have a *TIP* for you: some kind of sense of humor is needed when reading a meme.

You can't (realistically) drive a f1 ferrari, which is completely and absolutely different than all road legal ferrari cars.

Also anyone can support the red bull team......by buying a red bull. Doesn't get easier and more mainstream than that.

 

[RACECAR]

That was 2010.

Yeah, meant to say that

 

[Alex.]

If the next race thread's introductory paragraph doesn't open with 'Sebastian Vettel, in his new role as Red Bull Racing team principal, is looking for his 2nd win of 2013' I'll be very disappointed.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Renault has the least chance of messing it up, they have the most money, have plenty of experience running V6 turbos as a company and experience at the front of the pack.

I'd be more afraid of Ferrari getting it wrong with their limited, recent, experience running forced induction and V6s.

Honda's not in the game till 2015 at the earliest, no telling how well they'll do, but judging through history and what they're good at, it should be great.

The only thing I'd be afraid of with the all new RB10 is that it may be unreliable. It took them a while to get the kinks out of the RB6 and beyond series of cars, so it could be a reset in that department.

Still, with everyone in their place, I highly doubt Vettel will go anywhere until 2017 when Alonso's out, but things could change drastically at any time up to that point.

I doubt Vettel's forgotten that his 2010 and 2012 titles came down to the wire largely because of Renault-related unreliability, namely the blown engine in Korea 2010 and the failed alternator at Valencia 2012, that spoiled his certain domination of those two races.

Good point about Ferrari, but I don't think of engine design/build as a real weakness of that organization. Their issues lie elsewhere.

Re Honda, yeah, engines and engine reliability are the company's core strength. The cockroach elite will be driving Hondas after its takeover of the planet in 10,000 years' time.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Renault has the least chance of messing it up, they have the most money, have plenty of experience running V6 turbos as a company and experience at the front of the pack.

I'd be more afraid of Ferrari getting it wrong with their limited, recent, experience running forced induction and V6s.

Honda's not in the game till 2015 at the earliest, no telling how well they'll do, but judging through history and what they're good at, it should be great.

The only thing I'd be afraid of with the all new RB10 is that it may be unreliable. It took them a while to get the kinks out of the RB6 and beyond series of cars, so it could be a reset in that department.

Still, with everyone in their place, I highly doubt Vettel will go anywhere until 2017 when Alonso's out, but things could change drastically at any time up to that point.

Which F1 championship have you been watching because it isn't the one that's been running for at least the last 10 years.

Renault do not have the most money in fact they don't even come close to some of the other front running teams by a good couple of hundred million.

Honda threw Billions at F1 and when did their car sudden start becoming competitive? When they fitted a German Mercedes engine. Engine reliability is not a Honda strong point in fact it's not even close.

 

[Centura]

Honda threw Billions at F1 and when did their car sudden start becoming competitive? When they fitted a German Mercedes engine. Engine reliability is not a Honda strong point in fact it's not even close.

It was competitive because it spent one year longer in development than the competitors cars and took advantage of a loophole, not because it fitted a Mercedes engine instead of a Honda one.

And when people think about Honda, they probably think about the late 80s with McLaren.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

It was competitive because it spent one year longer in development than the competitors cars and took advantage of a loophole, not because it fitted a Mercedes engine instead of a Honda one.

And when people think about Honda, they probably think about the late 80s with McLaren.

Actually not enterily true, they were given the Honda engines but then bought Mercedes engines, if the Honda engine was that good then why not use it? Also the loophole was create due to the Mercedes engine.

Just because a company built a decent engine 30 years ago doesn't mean they can do it again another casing example is Cosworth, they made one good engine and nothing ever since.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Brawn did not have the option on using a Honda engine as Honda pulled out. Brawn chose between the Ferrari engine, which was Ross Brawn's personal choice and the Mercedes engine. They chose Mercedes because there was less trouble modifying the engine bay for it.

The engine bay was designed for the Honda engine that it would have used had Honda not pulled out of the sport.

The car was designed and built with Honda's money and would have raced as a Honda if they had not pulled out.

Ross Brawn said that it would have been faster with the Honda engine as that was the no compromise design option.

Honda pulled out of F1 knowing that they were walking away from major success.

 

[HKS racer]

Hell yeah you can, I race my RB can against hot wheels all the time on my kitchen table. My wife shakes her head at me, and the can is a dog of a car...but I drive it

Cool story bro! 👍

You can't (realistically) drive a f1 ferrari, which is completely and absolutely different than all road legal ferrari cars.

You can drive a real Ferrari road car (or Mercedes, McLaren, Lotus). That was my point. You don't need to own them. You can rent it and go for a track day. You know what car enthusiast would like to do. Anyway it was a MEME you are free to support a can as much as you want.

And, MOST IMPORTANT, you can also buy an hot wheel Ferrari and race against the Redbull can in the probably awesome LMSCorvetteGT2's kitchen table.

 

[zzz_pt]

Can someone translate this news? It's in german... But looks like Webber won't continue and RBR will get a young driver (probably from Toro Rosso).

http://www.bild.de/sport/motorsport...er-vertrag-fuer-team-feind-29673672.bild.html