2014 Petronas Malaysia Grand Prix

[Imari]

I guarantee you Matesichtz doesn't think in "few thousand Euros", he think in billion Euros.

You may need to explain exactly how sabotaging one of the cars nets him billions of Euros.

It's obvious to see the costs in fines and damage, and the potential costs from lost constructors points.

It's not obvious to me how using one car as a guinea pig can net Red Bull/Mateschitz billions of Euro even hypothetically, let alone in this specific instance.

The big money from Formula 1 is in the constructors title. Finishing both cars moderately well tends to trump one car winning/one car DNFing. As far as money from outside Formula 1, you're going to have to explain how trashing one car to finish the other one well creates money there.

 

[86Debris86]

Maybe I give Formula 1 too much credit, but I would rather we had silent cars lapping over 2 minutes but producing brilliant racing, over loud wasps running in order start - finish at 1 minute lap times.

I agree but at the moment we don't have brilliant racing. We have cars that can't fight eachother because they'd use too much fuel.
Doesn't Formula E start soon? Might be just the ticket.

 

[Samus]

You may need to explain exactly how sabotaging one of the cars nets him billions of Euros.

It's obvious to see the costs in fines and damage, and the potential costs from lost constructors points.

It's not obvious to me how using one car as a guinea pig can net Red Bull/Mateschitz billions of Euro even hypothetically, let alone in this specific instance.

The big money from Formula 1 is in the constructors title. Finishing both cars moderately well tends to trump one car winning/one car DNFing. As far as money from outside Formula 1, you're going to have to explain how trashing one car to finish the other one well creates money there.

I wouldn't bother wasting your time on him, he's had these theories about Red Bull for years but just as with the people who think flight MH370 was captured by the US Army and is at a secret base, he has no proof and likely never will.

 

[Imari]

I wouldn't bother wasting your time on him, he's had these theories about Red Bull for years but just as with the people who think flight MH370 was captured by the US Army and is at a secret base, he has no proof and likely never will.

That's just silly. Everyone knows that MH370 was captured by aliens as part of their new policy of abducting people en masse for anal probery.

Formula 1 is an alien design test ground for more effective anal probes, anything behind the front 6 inches is merely a cunning disguise.

Everything is related, and everything is a conspiracy.

P.S. It's a slow day at work and I'm entertaining myself.

 

[Wardez]

That's just silly. Every one knows that MH370 was captured by aliens as part of their new policy of abducting people en masse for anal probery.

Formula 1 is an alien design test ground for more effective anal probes, anything behind the front 6 inches is merely a cunning disguise.

Everything is related, and everything is a conspiracy.

P.S. It's a slow day at work and I'm entertaining myself.

Good stuff man, you can get a lot of clicks for that, just start a blog

 

[HKS racer]

You may need to explain exactly how sabotaging one of the cars nets him billions of Euros.

It's obvious to see the costs in fines and damage, and the potential costs from lost constructors points.

It's not obvious to me how using one car as a guinea pig can net Red Bull/Mateschitz billions of Euro even hypothetically, let alone in this specific instance.

The big money from Formula 1 is in the constructors title. Finishing both cars moderately well tends to trump one car winning/one car DNFing. As far as money from outside Formula 1, you're going to have to explain how trashing one car to finish the other one well creates money there.

The big money for a company like RedBull in F1 came from the marketing boost they have while being in first place.
They always tried to win in every way, legal or illegal doesn't really matter for them.

 

[Imari]

The big money for a company like RedBull in F1 came from the marketing boost they have while being in first place.
They always tried to win in every way, legal or illegal doesn't really matter for them.

See, and that may seem obvious to you. But you're going to have to spell out for me how the marketing that results from being in first place, as opposed to say second or third, is necessarily going to result in billions of extra euros of revenue.

It's not like being in first makes you suddenly, impossibly, irresistibly, spectacularly attractive. I know that racing drivers believe it does, but the rest of us know but the rest of us know that it's a bit nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, guv'nor.

 

[Samus]

He still thinks RBR are the only team with a win any way you can attitude? Cute.

 

[marco89IT]

Via f1fanatic.co.uk; issues suffered by Vettel and Webber in their years as RedBull team-mates. This was done after the 2013 Italian GP, so it doesn't consider the last part of the 2013 championship.

4.5 year score card
Sebastian Vettel: 40 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team order, 2 team-mate clashes, 2 significant pit stop issue), 8 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 45 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team orders, 2 team-mate clashes, 7 significant pit stop issues), 3 leading to a DNF

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f1/forum/topic/vettel-webber-and-reliability-at-red-bull/

I really can't see in what way Webber has been "used" by his team. I'm also struggling to think why a team should ruin one of his driver's race on purpose.

About marketing relevance, Webber has been one of the most respected drivers in F1, by both drivers and fans. Especially Australian fans, I'm sure. And Australia is an important market for RedBull, for obvious reasons I guess (where does Ricciardo comes from?).
So, why should they've ruined Mark Webber's considerable career treating him just like a useless threat to Vettel's success?
If RedBull doesn't need a second car to score valuable points, why don't they simply put a famous but non-F1 related person in that car? A rockstar, an Hollywood star, a RedBull sponsored athlete from another sport...plenty of possibilities. Always in last place, but great for marketing!

 

[HKS racer]

See, and that may seem obvious to you. But you're going to have to spell out for me how the marketing that results from being in first place, as opposed to say second or third, is necessarily going to result in billions of extra euros of revenue.

It's not like being in first makes you suddenly, impossibly, irresistibly, spectacularly attractive. I know that racing drivers believe it does, but the rest of us know but the rest of us know that it's a bit nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, guv'nor.

You may want to ask Matesichtz himself why he invested bilion euros in motorsport all these years and why RBR doesn't really care if their wins are legal or illegal.

 

[Imari]

You may want to ask Matesichtz himself why he invested bilion euros in motorsport all these years

The implication being that you don't know yourself, despite your using Mateschitz's reasons as a basis for your arguments.

If you don't know his reasons and can't tell me yourself, I don't think you have any business drawing conclusions from information you don't have.

and why RBR doesn't really care if their wins are legal or illegal.

Could you provide some evidence that they think this?

There's certainly evidence to the contrary in the strength with which they're fighting Ricciardo's disqualification in Australia. They care very deeply whether their results are considered legal or illegal, and are prepared to go to great lengths to establish the legality of their actions.

I could speculate that they care because of the constructor's points and the money that they represent, but that would be attributing them no more motivation than that of any other Formula 1 team.

 

[HKS racer]

The implication being that you don't know yourself, despite your using Mateschitz's reasons as a basis for your arguments.

If you don't know his reasons and can't tell me yourself, I don't think you have any business drawing conclusions from information you don't have.

It's pretty clear RB invest money in motorsport for marketing which in their opinion lead to better commercial result with their cans.

Could you provide some evidence that they think this?

There's certainly evidence to the contrary in the strength with which they're fighting Ricciardo's disqualification in Australia. They care very deeply whether their results are considered legal or illegal, and are prepared to go to great lengths to establish the legality of their actions.

In other words, their goal is to make their illegal cars being considered legal by FIA.

FIA gave them a sensor. They don't like it they want to use their own.

FIA gave Ferrari DRS and KERS software to dialogue with. Ferrari don't like it, Ferrari change people in their stuff in order to achieve better results, they didn't ask to use Magneti Marelli software.

 

[Tired Tyres]

^ Every team on the grid cheats/exploits a loophole in the rules (delete as your preference). Red Bull have just been better at it than everyone else for the last few seasons.

I really hope you don't think that Ferrari are somehow exempt from shenanigans.

 

[Imari]

It's pretty clear RB invest money in motorsport for marketing which in their opinion lead to better commercial result with their cans.

Certainly. As does McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lotus, Renault and Caterham for their various respective products (and probably the rest of the teams too, although it's less obvious what their non-F1 products are exactly).

It is not the sole reason that any of them partake in Formula 1.

Would you like to tell me how you know that the marketing Red Bull gets from Formula 1 is more valuable to them than the money they get from succeeding at Formula 1?

 

[Hun200kmh]

Certainly. As does McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lotus, Renault and Caterham for their various respective products.

Not according to the famous words attributed to Enzo Ferrari (and I believe this was directed at Ford at the time, when they poured millions in their Le Mans bid):

Others race to sell cars. We sell cars to race.

Although my favourite quote from him would be from his very early days as race car builder (for others to race):

I don't sell cars. I sell engines. The cars I throw in for free since something has to hold the engines in.

Quite a character, old Enzo

 

[Hun200kmh]

Sorry for the double post, but I just read this article from ESPNF1 and in it I find a mention that I hadn't heard before, about BRB telling Ricciardo to turn down his engine during the race. Apparently he didn't do it. Did this transpire in the race coverage? I never knew about it.

Here's the part of the article I'm mentioning:

"No, if something happens there I want to be a part of it."

Daniel Ricciardo finds a polite way of telling his race engineer he has no intention of turning down his engine with Sebastian Vettel seemingly reeling in Nico Rosberg ahead of him.

 

[niky]

You may want to ask Matesichtz himself why he invested bilion euros in motorsport all these years and why RBR doesn't really care if their wins are legal or illegal.

Oh, shock, horror... Red Bull fields cars that contravene the spirit of the rules, exploits loopholes in the rules to field cars that ought to be illegal and plays every underhanded political trick in the book to gain an unfair advantage on the racetrack?

Well... duh. That's something just about everybody here knows.

Formula One is a big vanity project for Red Bull. Red Bull uses Formula One like all its motorsports and even air-racing projects, as a big come-on for investors and a way to keep itself relevant with its client base, energy-drink addicted young males.

That's pretty obvious.

What isn't obvious and what makes no sense at all is your claim that somehow sabotaging their popular, brand-new, up-and-coming young driver (who they already started getting media mileage out of already by pushing in front of the camera for their pre-season publicity videos) actually helps them build up good public relations.

Tell us again how ensuring he doesn't finish the race increases Red Bull's stock, again?

Having a likeable Aussie finish well in a race is a good way to sell more Red Bull in Australia. Having him DNF two races in a row is a good way to sell Red Bull... where?

 

[marco89IT]

Sorry for the double post, but I just read this article from ESPNF1 and in it I find a mention that I hadn't heard before, about BRB telling Ricciardo to turn down his engine during the race. Apparently he didn't do it. Did this transpire in the race coverage? I never knew about it.

Here's the part of the article I'm mentioning:

"OK Daniel, we suggest you drop back a little more to look after the tyres. Aim for two seconds to Vettel. Alonso three seconds behind you."
"The Merc’s getting closer, though. If something goes on, I want to be a part of it."

Source: f1fanatic.co.uk

And yes, this was one of the selected team radios aired during the live coverage.

 

[HKS racer]

Certainly. As does McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lotus, Renault and Caterham for their various respective products (and probably the rest of the teams too, although it's less obvious what their non-F1 products are exactly).

It is not the sole reason that any of them partake in Formula 1.

Would you like to tell me how you know that the marketing Red Bull gets from Formula 1 is more valuable to them than the money they get from succeeding at Formula 1?

Succeding in F1 is about 170 / 200 million euros prize, Selling high quantity of cans all over the world we talk in billion euros figures.

What isn't obvious and what makes no sense at all is your claim that somehow sabotaging their popular, brand-new, up-and-coming young driver (who they already started getting media mileage out of already by pushing in front of the camera for their pre-season publicity videos) actually helps them build up good public relations.

Tell us again how ensuring he doesn't finish the race increases Red Bull's stock, again?

Having a likeable Aussie finish well in a race is a good way to sell more Red Bull in Australia. Having him DNF two races in a row is a good way to sell Red Bull... where?

RBR this year immediately realized they have no chance against Mercedes, they can only play "the sensor is not working" card in order to be allowed by FIA to use their own sensor and/or play the "sounds is ugly" card.
According to Renault the only way to improve sounds is to increase revs to 15.000. To do that they need... guess what? More fuel. With F1 engines reaching 15.000 revs they think/hope Mercedes advantagede can decrease therefore have a title chance once again. Last year they baby-cried because of Pirelli tyres, they have been satisfied. That's how they work. From a business and political point of view they are very efficent. And let me say that, if I was Mateschitz and you was Horner you would have been removed from Team Leader work.

 

[Imari]

Succeding in F1 is about 170 / 200 million euros prize, Selling high quantity of cans all over the world we talk in billion euros figures.

Now all you have to do is account for how much of an increase in sales Formula 1 adds.

If Red Bull pulled out of F1 tomorrow, their sales would not drop to zero. Quite apart from all the other "extreme" sports that they finance, Red Bull is a highly established brand that would likely continue to be quite successful with no advertising at all.

So yes, the Red Bull drinks empire is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. No, it's not entirely sitting on the shoulders of Formula 1.

So go ahead and explain how Red Bull gets more than $200 million dollars worth of advertising out of sabotaging their car.

 

[niky]

RBR this year immediately realized they have no chance against Mercedes, they can only play "the sensor is not working" card in order to be allowed by FIA to use their own sensor and/or play the "sounds is ugly" card.
According to Renault the only way to improve sounds is to increase revs to 15.000. To do that they need... guess what? More fuel. With F1 engines reaching 15.000 revs they think/hope Mercedes advantagede can decrease therefore have a title chance once again. Last year they baby-cried because of Pirelli tyres, they have been satisfied. That's how they work. From a business and political point of view they are very efficent.

Again, this is news to... who? We already know all of this. If you would bother to read the thread on the Ricciardo appeal, this has all been covered exhaustively.

What I'm waiting for is your explanation as to how sabotaging Ricciardo's Malaysian race plays into their master plan, since he was disqualified not due to sensor issues, but due to a bungled pit stop.

And let me say that, if I was Mateschitz and you was Horner you would have been removed from Team Leader work.

Because I don't see the benefit in bungling a pit stop, costing the team a few thousand Euros and handicapping Car Number Two in Bahrain for no reason at all? Do tell.

 

[Hun200kmh]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113262

Now this I wasn't expecting.

 

[Tired Tyres]

A reasoned and proper response from a team principle to an issue. The world is coming to an end.

 

[TenEightyOne]

A reasoned and proper response from a team principle to an issue. The world is coming to an end.

Ooft, she's a properly snorting horsey gel isn't she? I bet she knows how to use a crop. Grr.

Where was I? Ah, team orders.

Any team can and should use team orders to maximise the points from their investment. Williams went wrong in either failing to preagree the team-order conditions with the drivers or failing to observe that agreement during the race. They were probably surprised by how public the issue became, possibly a symptom of having fallen face first into the public eye this year thanks to Martini, Massa, and Susie McWolfstein, the big-eared geek queen of lower motorsport divisions.

 

[niky]

Good PR response. Obviously, if there was a chance of Bottas gaining another place after position-swapping, Massa should have moved over, but there was no assurance of Bottas being able to make that move.

Massa hasn't always been Mister McPouty-pants. He's moved over in the past when he's needed to. But at this stage, it's too early in the game to be handicapping your drivers for marginal chances at extra constructor's points.