2015 Dodge Challenger

[McLaren]

It definitely has a fitting exhaust for a car named the Hellcat. Still doesn't outweigh the other priorities that should have been attended to first.

 

[SBCDaniel]

Yes there's a longer video that goes over both cars. Best the old one pulled was an 11.8, they switched drivers and that dropped into the 13's and 14s which was what they rated them IIRC.

Here it is:



"Similar" power output, the old one weighs almost 800lbs less.

wow! no wonder my brothers old truck walked one of them pigs bad!!! 14's with 425hp?

 

[Blackbird.]

So everybody is ******** themselves over the exhaust sound and I think it's hilarious. It's so scary awesome.

Needs straight pipes.

Aren't they already? More or less...

 

[Vic Reign93]

In the past, the challenger has always been the cruiser of the modern retro pony cars but it's now bringing some pretty serious firepower to the ZL1 and GT500.

Will it be better? Time will tell.

 

[Slash]

Will it be better? Time will tell.

No, it won't. The car still doesn't even compare to it's rivals. Period. They can throw all the power they want at it but the other two will still rape it around a track. The Challenger is a big fat turd.

 

[GTboyz]

I dont know why but to me the Challenger Hellcat looks skinnier, more agile, more like a track car than the regular challenger. Maybe the rims made it look less fat ?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

In the past, the challenger has always been the cruiser of the modern retro pony cars but it's now bringing some pretty serious firepower to the ZL1 and GT500.

Will it be better? Time will tell.

So it bring HP numbers big deal...it still needs to compete with the Z/28 and the 302 (which is even funnier) on the track. What the others do (though arguably not the GT500 but more so than any Challenger) is generate big numbers in power and attack the track well without having to go buy a super car to do it.

 

[Vic Reign93]

So it bring HP numbers big deal...it still needs to compete with the Z/28 and the 302 (which is even funnier) on the track. What the others do (though arguably not the GT500 but more so than any Challenger) is generate big numbers in power and attack the track well without having to go buy a super car to do it.

Don't get me wrong, the challenger still needs to shed weight before it can properly take on the ZL1 and GT500 but it's nice to know that the Hellcat can make the same big power as those two.

Though I'm surprised that a track honed challenger like the 302 and Z/28 hasn't been made yet.

 

[psntomaz]

Why z28 and discontinued 302 and not GT500 and ZL1??? This isn't a Challenger T/A.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Why z28 and discontinued 302 and not GT500 and ZL1??? This isn't a Challenger T/A.

IT shouldn't have to be called one, the ZL1 performs quite well on a road course and the GT500 does pretty good too, the challenger hasn't and and if it can't perform better than the other two then it wont out do the bigger guys. The Z/28 vs ZL1 in some aspects may be unfair, but the 302 never beat out the 500 and even with the 302 leaving it's pretty obvious from reports (and if you follow the Mustang thread to any capacity) that a more note worthy track name will take it's place. Which still keeps the point on track if it can't beat it then all you've got is a loud car which the other two makes provide.

Don't get me wrong, the challenger still needs to shed weight before it can properly take on the ZL1 and GT500 but it's nice to know that the Hellcat can make the same big power as those two.

Though I'm surprised that a track honed challenger like the 302 and Z/28 hasn't been made yet.

I'm not surprised...I mean we're talking about a top tier sports car challenger in mid 2014 when the other two have had this for some time especially in the case of Ford. So as it stand we'll be talking about a T/A in 2017-2018 at this rate.

GM more recent in 2011 but obvious plans were shown and talked about prior to that year. Also weight isn't the only issues, the chassis needs to be enhanced and better balanced to compete with such power along with other parts that would make it a better handling car, not just a more powerful car. Also I have performance catalogs from Mopar that show they could have easily been doing this much sooner, rather than offering it as a performance mod to buy outside the dealership through them.

 

[psntomaz]

IT shouldn't have to be called one, the ZL1 performs quite well on a road course and the GT500 does pretty good too, the challenger hasn't and and if it can't perform better than the other two then it wont out do the bigger guys. The Z/28 vs ZL1 in some aspects may be unfair, but the 302 never beat out the 500 and even with the 302 leaving it's pretty obvious from reports (and if you follow the Mustang thread to any capacity) that a more note worthy track name will take it's place. Which still keeps the point on track if it can't beat it then all you've got is a loud car which the other two makes provide.


But then we're talking about cars that will spend more time on the drag strip than road course? That's why the mustang is comming with a translock mechanism. That's what I think this challenger was made for.

 

[Tornado]

The ZL1 isn't a drag queen; and Ford spent quite a lot of time and presumably large expense making it so the outgoing GT500 was considerably less of one than the car that bowed in 2007 when they didn't need to.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

stuff you said

If that is what the Challenger was made for then why is Dodge trying to showcase it's track performance? You see it when they talk about the "supposed" handling updates along with the aero updates that wouldn't serve any purpose on a drag strip. Also how do you know they spend more time at a drag strip? Because they have line lock on it? Ford have already said it will void the warranty if you plan to drag race your car or race it anywhere while using the line lock feature. Same BS Nissan pulled with the Launch control during the first release of the GT-R. And while on the subject of launch control...who cares about line lock when you have the other which isn't that much different.


However, if that was the case though then all three shouldn't bother making a superstock drag pack, because guys rather just go out and buy these and run them at the drag strip only,right? If someone is using these cars they're most likely driving them and doing everything in them not just drag racing. Those who want to have a drag car at full blown will buy the drag pack versions.

 

[Zenith]

But then we're talking about cars that will spend more time on the drag strip than road course? That's why the mustang is comming with a translock mechanism. That's what I think this challenger was made for.

You mean Line-Lock? The Mustang didn't come out with Line-Lock on the new model because it wants to focus on drag racing, it came out with Line-Lock because it was easy.

All modern braking systems are a few lines of code away from having a line lock system. All Line-Lock is is a way of activating the front brakes without the rears.

Undoubtedly the Camaro and Mustang have been getting away from drag racing. Notice how they both have IRS and about a dozen other features suited to turning and stopping.

 

[Slash]

The Mustang arguably has always been more of a track car to begin with anyways though. Look at first generation for example. The Boss 302 was a flat out road racer/circuit racer, and the Mach 1 was just a tier under that in the handling department. Having been in a Mach 1, I can definitely say that car is probably the stiffest muscle car I have ever been in and you felt EVERYTHING. Much more than any of the other muscle cars I've been in, which seemingly float over bumps with little to no feeling. Ford focused a lot on handling back in the day. The proof in that is the Mustang II IFS, which is one of the best suspension systems for old cars you can get.


They got popular with drag racers because big power and light weight, and more drag strips are available. Plus, not many people are going to be hitting sharp corners on the street at 75mph, but are more likely to do a flat out 1-4th gear run from stoplight to stoplight. That's just how it works.

 

[Omnis]

Why would a solid axle be better for drag racing besides robustness? If the diff with the IRS system is up to the task, why does it even matter?

 

[Slash]

The differential has nothing to do with it (for the most part). It comes down to suspension geometry.

The obvious robustness, easier installation, less to go wrong with it, lower cost etc. A solid axle increases road contact with the ground when putting down massive amounts of power in a straight line, which makes them popular with drag racers. If you ever watch an old muscle car drag race, you'll notice when they punch the go pedal the back end seems to lift up; what this is is actually the suspension rising, pushing down on the axle, therefore causing more traction than if the rear and just sagged and the front end lifted up. IRS is much softer, and while yes it does provide good traction around turns and whatnot, typically in a straight line it is inherently soft based on its "no leaf spring" design. That's why guys with old cars and solid axles like to put on traction bars to eliminate spring/axle wrap under serious loads of torque.

You can see this demonstrated here:




And for better comparison. These cars have similar power figures (I initially was under the impression the old one was stock, but it appears to be mildly modified in a stock class). Guess which has which.



You put either up against each other on the track and I bet the one with IRS pulls the win. But on the street, most people aren't hitting corners are 75, like I previously mentioned. Race up to 80-100mph at most, straight line, is what a lot of street racers tend to do.

This is a very good read.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/traction_tips_street_strip_suspensions/


These day it's easy to go fast on either platform but as far as I am concerned, a solid axle will always put down power better. There is a reason why guys with early 2000's SVT Cobra's rip the IRS out and drop in an axle from a GT, or a 9" from something else.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Why would a solid axle be better for drag racing besides robustness? If the diff with the IRS system is up to the task, why does it even matter?

Wheel hop/jump are usually the issue on higher power IRS cars and thus for the strip solid is preferred to avoid all that for one, and due to weight savings that come from it. However, Ford and GM are about the global market now and an IRS car is what works couple that with things like Magnetic ride suspension and what not and it becomes obvious that the drag strip is a past era that Ford and GM are not really concerned with. If you want that they still have stuff to fulfill your needs, but they're trying to build coupe sports cars that can go out and crush super cars for a fraction of the cost and to do that you need to be more of a super car and less of a straight line rocket.

 

[Slash]

I wouldn't say it's passed just yet, especially with reports that Ford Racing is developing a special chassis for the new Mustang that supports a solid rear axle, and can be ordered in a body in white form specifically for drag racers.

 

[Tornado]

I remember Cadillac had quite a mess on their hands with the original CTS-V when it became immediately clear that the IRS system as installed was insufficient at keeping the engine from eating the rear subframe as opposed to just the differential.

You also technically lose grip when you do it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I wouldn't say it's passed just yet, especially with reports that Ford Racing is developing a special chassis for the new Mustang that supports a solid rear axle, and can be ordered in a body in white form specifically for drag racers.

They already offer the Cobra Jet and there isn't anything indicating they wont offer it with the newer body (basically what I was saying earlier to @psntomaz), just like GM offers the Copo and Chrysler the Drag Pak. However, this doesn't indicate that the Drag racing era is still there, but rather they know there is a group that will buy these limited special order cars and race them due to their respective fandom to what ever make.

As for a general idea that the big three are still gearing toward that aspect of racing...I'd say that they aren't and it's gone. It's fine if you favor that but reality dictates otherwise and says that the global market and all around sports cars are what matter more than how fast you can go in a straight line.

 

[Slash]

The Cobra Jet is not confirmed to return as you said. Hardly anything sporty over the 5.0 is, if anything. We'll just have to wait and see what they do.

This is also a good read @Omnis.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news...offer-drag-racers-a-live-axle-for-new-mustang

__________

There's no doubt in my mind that automakers are getting away from that era of racing. Ford has been slowly doing that since the Fox era, but as I said previously I think the Mustang was always more of a road racer to begin with. It's just taking time. They are showing they are serious now, and finally hunkering down. That's cool.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The Cobra Jet is not confirmed to return as you said. Hardly anything sporty over the 5.0 is, if anything. We'll just have to wait and see what they do.

That's why I also said there is nothing indicating they wont either, they most likely will. Just like we'll most likely get a 500 and 350 for the upper tier versions. It's a new car and time is needed for development of those as you've said. Either way I don't want to muck around too much on the others since they have their respective threads, I'm just using them as a tool to measure this car with (Challenger Hellcat) and really every one that isn't a faithful to mopar or those that are general car enthusiast are doing the same.

 

[Omnis]

Wheel hop/jump are usually the issue on higher power IRS cars and thus for the strip solid is preferred to avoid all that for one, and due to weight savings that come from it. However, Ford and GM are about the global market now and an IRS car is what works couple that with things like Magnetic ride suspension and what not and it becomes obvious that the drag strip is a past era that Ford and GM are not really concerned with. If you want that they still have stuff to fulfill your needs, but they're trying to build coupe sports cars that can go out and crush super cars for a fraction of the cost and to do that you need to be more of a super car and less of a straight line rocket.

But wheel hop is a huge issue on solid axles. The mustang in that video almost bounces its rear end apart.

Wouldn't it be better to have an independent rear suspension geometry where camber and toe are locked at 0?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

But wheel hop is a huge issue on solid axles. The mustang in that video almost bounces its rear end apart.

I've never heard it be a bigger issue on Solid compared to IRS, as for reasons demonstrated by the other two users that responded to you, and you didn't respond too.

Wouldn't it be better to have an independent rear suspension geometry where camber and toe are locked at 0?

Also why would that be better, you still haven't addressed the fact that it weighs more than a solid rear, nor the ease of being able to work with a solid rear rather than an IRS in a serious drag set up.

Also here is an example of what @Tornado was talking about with the CTS-V to give you an example, which isn't nearly as bad as the Mustang @Slash posted if that was what you're talking about.

 

[Slash]

IRS has much worse problems to combat than extreme wheel hop. I would bet in that video the Mustang was not properly setup underneath. In fact, I have no seen wheel hop that bad in a long time. Probably a bad example, but then again, that wasn't on a launch and moving but a burnout. Bit different circumstances.

With an independent rear suspension, the added loading on the rear wheels will typically increase the negative camber, meaning the wheels will tip inward at the top as the springs compress.

As the camber angle increases, the outer portion of the tire contact patch actually lifts up off the pavement, reducing the available traction for acceleration. In drag racing, even the slightest loss of traction in the first few milliseconds off the line can make the difference between victory and elimination.

Because the solid axle prevents the wheels from moving in relation to each other, they remain perpendicular to the road at all times, with the entire tire contact patch on the track.

One key to an optimized street/strip suspension is weight transfer. This street Nova appears to be hooked up, but that squatting is actually lifting the rear suspension and tires off the pavement. Generally, most street cars work best with a slight amount of rear-suspension rise during launch, which plants the rear tires into the asphalt. Note, also, that the right front tire is toed-in due to front-suspension rise. That is called bump steer and can cause a slower e.t.

 

[Omnis]

I'm not factoring in cost, I'm just talking about geometry. Obviously the solid axle is the best setup with all things considered, since it's that which is in widespread use. With money no option, just bolt big huge wheels to a tube frame and call it a day.

Unless you've got a Watts linkage (is that what drag guys run? Perhaps that's the key), can't a live axle step out a bit under load? I guess on a drag strip there's nothing really to deflect it laterally. That brings up another scenario: Watts link vs. IRS in general.

 

[Zenith]

Watts link is primarily for keeping the axle centered in relation to the car during cornering. It could help drag racing, but that's not what it's for. A torque arm would be more effective. With simple devices like proper cal trac traction bars a live rear axle faces basically zero wheel hop.

Live axles do not need CV joints which would have to be extremely beefy to avoid shattering when torque loaded with sticky tires.

The single piece housing also is much better at resisting the (crazy high) forces that would try to bend an IRS out of 0 camber alignment on the strip.

 

[psntomaz]

2015 Challenger R/T Scat Pack @ Gumball

 

[Blackbird.]

Does it really sound that mean or did they have a mic right next to the exhaust?