2015 General WEC/ELMS/AsLMS Discussion ThreadSports Cars

[Kamuifanboy]

So say Audi sell 50 GT3 cars this year at 350K Euros eatch. Thats 17.5 millon euros! If you don't think that's enuf to upgrade a road car to a GT3 car, build the cars, support customers, and race a factory team your crasy. They can't be loosing money from this.

Do you think any company would spend millions in GT3 when you could get more attention doing other motorsports?

http://www.racer.com/international-racing/item/124113-audi-producing-more-than-50-new-r8s

Maybe somebody can back me up on numbers, but R&D alone is A LOT of money. LMP1 for instance cost Audi over 200 million this year. I can go ahead and tell you that it shouldn't cost them more than 50-75 million to do the FIA WEC with brand new chassis and engines every race. Where does the rest of that money go? Testing and R&D. Designing a GT3 car, although not as technologically advanced as a LMP1 car, still costs money. Probably more than the sub 20 million figure you had come up with.

It is still Audi Sport regardless and only way I can link GT3 to WEC ELMS or AsLMS?

Exactly.

Audi, regardless of what discipline, is losing money hand over fist. Unless you're racing karts, that's what it is. It comes down to how important motorsport is to that company. Audi have a lot invested into it, so they'll sink as much as they reasonably can to keep going. Look at how much they flaunt Le Mans. I doubt these numbers are as new to them as they are to us.

Exactly x2.

There's more to the costs than just buying the car and you don't get all that for 350k which is cheap for a GT3 car.

350k would have been expensive 5 years ago. I've heard the new 488 GT3 costs 480k! This is why I think GT3 will die soon. The question is, what category is next?

If onroak can sell 10 LMP2 cars at a capped cost, support there customers and still get a profit I think Audi can as well. I'm not sure if the customer gets a driver included with the car or not tho.

Can you show me some proof of this? I have a hard time believing it, based on previous knowledge that almost every single private chassis manufacturer in Le Mans, is almost always struggling for money.

 

[Furinkazen]

This.

Mature 👍

Not at the expenses of race results, at least according to how some brands approached racing at Le Mans in the last 10 years.

"This became apparent while chatting with a bigwig from one of Nissan's P1 rivals minutes before the race. The GT-R LM is an attention grab, he said, a sideshow not worthy of racing at la Sarthe. He called the NISMO program "a disgrace," then asked not be quoted by name. Which, considering what he said next, is understandable:

"What is their intention? You can come here and do whatever you want, say whatever you want, but when the final minutes come, what will you show? That's what racing is about. Is coming to race just a marketing tool? Just marketing? That's what pisses me off. In the old days, the technical side was on top. Now, marketing is the top. The technical side is not as important.

"And if it is just marketing that Nissan is doing, then there is something wrong with the sport. If [the car] isn't showing promise in simulations and testing, it will never fly. Never. They may be embarrassed, but they knew from the beginning, after the Sebring test. Stay home. Even if it's totally different, it still has to work."

Dude was genuinely offended. And this is more than a little gamely ****-talking; it's an insight into the German corporate culture, how they approach racing. This guy doesn't hate the GT-R LM because it's a competitive threat—he hates it because it's not. Basically, the Germans think Nissan is trolling Le Mans. Hard."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a25900/the-nissan-gt-r-lmp1-is-damn-good-for-racing/

This proves what exactly? One persons opinion. Nothing factual in there whatsoever...

 

[Christian_C]

It's true, R&D might as well be sub-titled "how much money have you got?"

In terms of spending it can basically be unlimited, just look at the Citroen WTCC program and how much they spent relative to the competition.

The problem is that if you give engineers an unlimited budget they'll somehow find a way to spend it and then an extra 50% on top. They'll budget everything to the limit before the project even starts and then have to spend extra to fix all the problems they encounter.

Unfortunately it really is the only way to get anywhere and if you seriously want to beat your competition you must match them or better them in spending.

 

[MatskiMonk]

This proves what exactly? One persons opinion. Nothing factual in there whatsoever...

And the opinion of a big-wig at an opposition team... yeah, the best place to get a unbiased response I bet it was even the same team big-wig that was banned from the DTM pit-lane this year for telling his driver to push other drivers off the track.

FWIW, I still find the article linked interesting, because I mostly agree with the author. I put my money where my mouth is, and I paid to show my support for the WEC and Le Mans this year, and I didn't go to the races to show support for just the driver in the lead in the last few minutes. They build a legal car, they put the effort in, and they put their money where their mouth is, they deserve to be there just as much as the other teams.

Misunderstood genius right?

I didn't say that at all. I think a lot of the theory behind the car was clever, but clearly they failed to implement it properly - so I think the principle of the car doesn't deserve all the criticism it gets, even if the car itself didn't achieve a great deal.

What I think you don't understand is this bit...

They had some decent ideas though expecially the aero tunnels but overdid it with FWD and tiny rear tires.

The aero tunnels were possible because there wasn't an entire drivetrain in the way, the idea you especially like was mostly possible because of the position of the engine and gearbox.

edit:

Can you show me some proof of this? I have a hard time believing it, based on previous knowledge that almost every single private chassis manufacturer in Le Mans, is almost always struggling for money.

Unlike mainstream manufacturer programs, the private manufacturer programs aren't back up by companies make $10,000,000,000 profit from usual business... so it's not an unfair assumption that there is a business case to be had selling racing cars.

 

[HKS racer]

This proves what exactly? One persons opinion. Nothing factual in there whatsoever...

Ehm nothing factual you say? Nissan pace was 10+ seconds slower each lap compared to top class P1's. It's not like they went to Le Mans and have been *surprised butsecs* by Audi / Porsche. They knew it since Sebring test, that's why what he said makes a lot of sense to me.

The aero tunnels were possible because there wasn't an entire drivetrain in the way, the idea you especially like was mostly possible because of the position of the engine and gearbox.

Ok you have a point that actually make sense there. Still I think aero tunnels could have been used in a different way for instance venting out above the sides instead of behing the car, keeping the engine where it belongs, in the middle of the car and rear traction. Front engine + FWD + small rear tires = mechanichal balance unsettled dramatically.

 

[Furinkazen]

Ehm nothing factual you say? Nissan pace was 10+ seconds slower each lap compared to top class P1's. It's not like they went to Le Mans and have been *surprised butsecs* by Audi / Porsche. They knew it since Sebring test, that's why what he said makes a lot of sense to me.

No one knew anything for certain until Le Mans. Bit difficult to know what will actually happen until the race, regardless of testing and simulation.

Pescarolo figured the 03 was going to be competitive yet on track it had 30 per cent worse aero than predicted.

And it was nothing factual. You changed subject because you posted a biased opinion and got found out.

 

[HKS racer]

And it was nothing factual. You changed subject because you posted a biased opinion and got found out.

Again, if that's the case your opinion is biased as well. Breaking news: everyone opinion is biased in a way or another. That said let's move on and try to discuss what he actaully said instead of making deaf ears.

In other words: attack the point not the speaker.

 

[Furinkazen]

Again, if that's the case your opinion is biased as well. Breaking news: everyone opinion is biased in a way or another. That said let's move on and try to discuss what he actaully said instead of making deaf ears.

In other words: attack the point not the speaker.

You again ignored it where convenient for you, so I'll give you a helping hand as im feeling helpful in the christmas spirit.

No one knew anything for certain until Le Mans. Bit difficult to know what will actually happen until the race, regardless of testing and simulation.

Pescarolo figured the 03 was going to be competitive yet on track it had 30 per cent worse aero than predicted.

 

[Eva]

In other words: attack the point not the speaker.

You know, unless the speaker has a history of not providing sources and positioning assumptions as facts.

 

[HKS racer]

You again ignored it where convenient for you, so I'll give you a helping hand as im feeling helpful in the christmas spirit.

If you run 20+ seconds slower than your competitors you probably had a rough idea about what to expect. If you don't either you don't care about results or you totally miscalculate your project AND predictions.

 

[Furinkazen]

If you run 20+ seconds slower than your competitors you probably had a rough idea about what to expect. If you don't either you don't care about results or you totally miscalculate your project AND predictions.

And they did as they stated Le Mans was a 24 hour test for them...

 

[Eva]

And they did as they stated Le Mans was a 24 hour test for them...

Repeatedly. Even some of the drivers said it.

 

[HKS racer]

And they did as they stated Le Mans was a 24 hour test for them...

So if that was the test this year should have been the real race.. oh wait, project cancelled.

You know, unless the speaker has a history of not providing sources and positioning assumptions as facts.

Congratulations for proving that you do have a biased opinion... like everyone else have one even if they don't admit it because they are hypocrites.

 

[Furinkazen]

So if that was the test this year should have been the real race.. oh wait, project cancelled.

Congratulations for proving that you do have a biased opinion... like everyone else have one even if they don't admit it because they are hypocrites.

Not the first project cancelled by higher ups. Cadillac programme anyone?

And nice job calling yourself a hypocrite

 

[Eva]

So if that was the test this year should have been the real race.. oh wait, project cancelled.

Congratulations for proving that you do have a biased opinion... like everyone else have one even if they don't admit it because they are hypocrites.

How am I biased when I simply say that sources need to be provided to consider statements as fact? That's scientific process through and through. Present your case and the evidence behind it or be discounted as misleading and opinionated. That's how it is, regardless of bias. The only clearly biased person here is you.

 

[RACECAR]

Love how having two people call BS on your unproven (or unsourced) facts with actual facts is called "Biased opinions".

 

[SK8RBOI]

Every one is wrong!


Any way Alex brundle is back in the driving seat next season driving a united autosport LMP3 car in the ELMS! Yay!!!

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Not the first project cancelled by higher ups. Cadillac programme anyone?

And nice job calling yourself a hypocrite

Peugeot aswell was one where they had already spent all the money as well.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Yeah I can see that happening.
"Can I have an engine please"

"Sure, what do you want?"

"You know the racing engines you make for Aston martin, can I have one of them?"

"Certainly, that will be 50,000 dollars, how would you like to pay?"

Sorted

 

[Furinkazen]

Sorted

So.... the Team GTP AMR-Two taking shape nicely now?

 

[ukfan758]

People are seriously celebrating over a team quitting? Wow, classy. I wasn't cheering for Nissan in the race but I had huge respect for them trying what they did compared to the standard that the other teams were abiding by. Such a shame that they quit, I was really looking forward to a 4 team battle in the 2016 season .

 

[catamount39]

People are seriously celebrating over a team quitting? Wow, classy. I wasn't cheering for Nissan in the race but I had huge respect for them trying what they did compared to the standard that the other teams were abiding by. Such a shame that they quit, I was really looking forward to a 4 team battle in the 2016 season .

Same thoughts, with the hybrid system in play that car could have had a chance or at least develop further. We lost a good WIP team.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

People are seriously celebrating over a team quitting? Wow, classy. I wasn't cheering for Nissan in the race but I had huge respect for them trying what they did compared to the standard that the other teams were abiding by. Such a shame that they quit, I was really looking forward to a 4 team battle in the 2016 season .

Not celebrating more of a told you so, if they came in with a more respectful approach rather than yeah we are gonna win in 2 years watch this then maybe others would be more respectful to them.

It's a 2 way street.

 

[Clark]

I think it's sad that Nissan have had to quit, but maybe if they'd put more budget in to the development and running of the car than their marketing maybe they would've done better.

 

[Northstar]

Not celebrating more of a told you so, if they came in with a more respectful approach rather than yeah we are gonna win in 2 years watch this then maybe others would be more respectful to them.

Did they ever say that outside the initial announcement?

I'm also not sure that's the reason most people hate on the car as people like to hate on the Deltawing and Formula E for seemingly no reason as well. All while complaining about the lack of innovation in motorsports of course.

 

[trustjab]

A superbowl commercial that featured the new Maxima was probably taken care if not with a lot of (financial) with help from Nissan NA. Their marketing wasn't that big in terms of a price tag aside that commercial. Most things I remember on 'marketing' (besides the superbowl commercial) was big talk from two guys who left the program- Palmer and Cox. I think besides those guys trying to boast their program to the max, the other things they did were great. Like the live feed during tests, the openness on the car, plenty of photos, putting the car in video games etc. Thats not expensive stuff to do. Anyone can put up a live stream and photos on flickr. I'll miss this car. I hope they come back late this year or in 2018 when new regs are introduced.

 

[redsoxboy80]

People are seriously celebrating over a team quitting? Wow, classy. I wasn't cheering for Nissan in the race but I had huge respect for them trying what they did compared to the standard that the other teams were abiding by. Such a shame that they quit, I was really looking forward to a 4 team battle in the 2016 season .

I suspect it's kind of the same thing that happened with Ronda Rousey after she lost to Holm. She talked a big game before that fight and didn't back it up. It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison because she had proven herself prior to that fight, but there are similarities.

There was a fairly large media campaign behind the car before it ever raced once. So expectations were fairly high from the public, who were not totally knowledgeable about the details behind the project. I do feel for the team because they knew they had a mountain of an engineering challenge to climb while being exposed to scrutiny by the public (and internally). So when the car could not deliver the performance expected of it, criticism rained down.

If anything Nissan, and whoever was responsible for the design of the PR campaign (Cox?), have to shoulder the largest portion of criticism because they kinda screwed the design and engineering team behind the car. It was not a smart strategy to begin marketing a radical new concept before it had even begun to prove itself on the track.

That being said, in reality I still don't think the fundamental concept behind the car was feasible. I just don't see how you can marry the aero tunnels with a front-regen/rear-deploy system, and keep weight to a minimum on top of that. With current technology, it seems like an impossible target to hit.

 

[TDZdave]

Vitaly Petrov to drive for SMP in the WEC this year,

(sourced from AutoSport.com, cant post a link due to not quite understanding the new phone just yet :/)

 

[SK8RBOI]

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/petrov-signs-with-smp-racing-for-wec-lmp2-effort/

 

[Furinkazen]

Campos LMP1.