2016 Formula 1 Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by TenEightyOne, Nov 24, 2016.

  1. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    To deliberately drive nine seconds per lap slower than what you are capable of equally negates the essence of the sport.
     
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  2. justin credible

    justin credible

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    Your mixing my words like a Sun reporter there fellow, read it as it's written please.

    I said I THINK Hamilton has a vile streak in him may be he will show it one day or maybe prove me wrong time will tell.
    Would I trust Hamilton not to take someone out to favour himself? No I believe he would do it.

    Vettel's outburst at Charlie made me laugh at the time but he deserved a punishment it was out of order undignified and has no place in F1. Pretty similar to Lewis making out someone was stitching his engines up after he blew up in Malaysia, Or Lewis throwing the 2nd place cap at Nico in 2015 in US that was vile and out of order. Heat of the moment stuff which I am sure they both regret with hindsight.

    Lewis yesterday in front of the world ignored his teams orders to pick up the pace and again when Paddy spoke to him on the radio he ignored his teams orders. Mercedes wanted 1&2 and could see the threat Vettel was becoming.
    Did Lewis pick up the pace when Vettel was in P1 him 2nd and Nico 3rd? No he was jeopardising the 1-2 for Mercedes for his own aspirations he would have stayed in p2 only because Vettel boxed did he move up, lack of dignity and respect to his team, do I blame him No he wants to win the title. Was it dignified No in the end did it matter No so no worries from where I am, Lewis tried some legal but leave a bad taste in the mouth tactics they didn't work. End of really.
    We would all love to see out and out foot to the floor racing all the time but unless the teams drop to 1 car each it won't happen and I prey the 1 car idea never rears it's head in F1.

    Yes Max has blocked a bit this season but for a young kid new to the scene he has been a breath of fresh air a bit reckless on occasions but over the whole season I have loved having Max in F1 and long may he continue.



    All good fun which makes F1 what it is.
    Again well done Nico World Champion enjoy it.

    Roll on to 2017 fat cars, looks lots of interesting things to see, I can't wait.
     
  3. Sum1s2pid

    Sum1s2pid

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    Yes, but it was meddling. Mercedes handily sealed up their manufacturer's championship, but aside from adding to an already impressive list of statistics, they had nothing to gain from essentially telling Hamilton to abandon his drive for the WDC. I'm glad Rosberg won, but I'm also glad that Lewis didn't cave to team orders. I was literally on the edge of my seat for those last few laps. Compelling stuff.
     
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  4. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

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    I don't like it but it's not totally out of what F1 is. Sometimes, for strategic reasons, you go slower and one of those reasons is possibly to back other cars up. Hamilton played by the rules and I don't care a bit that he didn't obey Mercedes. I also understand team orders and I also don't like them.

    So:
    1. Team orders - I don't like but it is part of F1 since there is F1.

    2. Driver going slower than possible for strategic reasons - I may or may not like it (depends on the reasons why that is being done) but I have no doubt that such a behaviour is part of the sport.


    Elaborating on #2. It is clear in my mind that who really ruined Hamilton's game was Vettel. Think about it:

    a) Rosberg was in no position to try an overtake on HAM because Ham's car wasn't slower, it was being driven "slowly" where a pass was impossible, and fast when such a thing wasn't possible. If anything they had equal pace on the fast sections.

    b) Vettel had a faster car than ROS for the entire duration of the lap. So, what did Vettel do? Back off (just the strictly needed amount) , something he could do because Max was already out of DRS range, almost limping but keeping in touch because of Hamilton's tactic driving.

    So you could argue that VET did the same that HAM did. And you would probably be right. He went slower.

    Now, imagine Mr. Arrivabene, with his job on the line and a sniff at a victory, understood this, got on the comms and shouted: "OVERTAKE ROSBERG, THAT'S AN ORDER!"

    Now, that would be interesting. And there you have it, Vettel going slower than possible because of his own agenda and preferences, who can deny him the right to do it?

    In any case and all things considered, maybe even Vettel's help wasn't needed, Max was out of it so Rosbrerg would be third in any case.

    The "problem" with a guy like Rosberg is that he apparently had his brain covered with german armour and his nervous system bathed in Finnish ice.
     
  5. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    It is now. Unfortunately.
     
  6. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    I feel you're going a bit far now... remember the days of the strict #2 Ferrari? That was part and parcel of their strategy in a good number of races. Leave a car out sloooow to neutralise the fast runners.
     
  7. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    I wasn't a fan of it then, either.
     
  8. Sureboss

    Sureboss Premium

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    Was he actually 9 seconds slower than the car's capability?

    I heard Brundle mention on commentary that he was 9 seconds slower than his qualifying time, but given that the Fastest Lap (Vettel on the Super-Softs), was 4 seconds slower than his Vettel's qualifying time, I think that figure of 9 seconds is clutching at straws slightly.

    Obviously he was slowing down, Nico made no attempt to overtake him (whether he could or not is a different matter, but I suggest if Nico could go 9 seconds faster he would have done). What Hamilton did was more subtle than many other champions would have done in his position.
     
  9. Conquerer

    Conquerer

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    The essence of the sport is competition. Hamilton fought tooth and nail to make something happen behind him to help him win the championship, doing so without illegally blocking anyone or going against the rules. There's nothing wrong or dirty about what he did.
     
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  10. Dennisch

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    Can we appreciate that Ferrari finally had a working strategy?

    The Rosberg Hamilton thing is getting stale now.
     
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  11. TiZzla

    TiZzla

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    Just because it's not against the rules doesn't mean it's not wrong. If they weren't team mates then maybe I could see it differently but the Mercedes team are a massive operation, hundreds of people are involved in getting those cars to where they are and it's Nico and Lewis job to drive them as fast as possible.

    What Lewis did is not only morally unacceptable but he deliberately slowed down both of the teams cars purely for his own personal gain potentially sabotaging the teams result. Some things are more important than winning, and when Lewis already has 3 titles he could have at least been gracious in defeat. But no he did all he could do sabotage Nico's race and is still claiming the only reason he lost the title is because of mechanical failures.
     
  12. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Actually, I'd dispute that. I'd say it's their job to drive them as slowly as possible, but still faster than the other cars. These days, with tyre, engine and fuel management all important, I'd say it's as valid as it ever was.

    This view was probably most famously the mantra of Juan Manuel Fangio, but curiously once also espoused by a German-speaking racing driver in the pre-race press conference at Portugal in 1984 (as reported by Clive James).


    I wonder if Niki Lauda still holds that view, 32 years down the line...
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  13. Dennisch

    Dennisch Premium

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    I see that the Austrians can trick the greatest minds.
     
  14. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    :D
     
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  15. United6694

    United6694

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    I think at the end of the day all that matters is what the result was. I'm sure everyone can see it from both sides, Merc and Lewis. You could argue the point all night long.

    Is NR a deserving champion? Of course he is, he's beat all the other drivers.

    "Oh but engine" ok, for that to be valid, rewrite the history book of everyone who missed out on a title due to mechanical issues...

    Simple fact is NR scored more points, is LH a better/faster driver, quite possibly. We all have our favourite drivers.

    "NR isn't worthy or somehow his championship is undervalued because LH won more races, more poles, won last 4 on the bounce" ok, won more races, either way a record would be set for most wins and no title. More poles, NR got more poles in 2014 when LH won don't remember that argument then? Won last 4 on bounce, look at last year.

    And can we remember NR moved aside at Monaco under team orders so LH might not have won that race and lucky to escape penalty for his incident with Ric

    Spain, you can argue either way although sky and BBC seem to favour LH more

    Germany NR v Ves I'm sure some think was harsh

    Silverstone NR radio penalty

    Mexico LH first corner depending on your viewpoint

    So I think like has been said, to say LH lost it because of engine is a bit short-sighted at best.

    Also, it's a sad state of F1 when the last 10 laps of the season are the most exciting of the season... but that's for another thread I guess. It's been a pleasure talking about the races with you guys/gals when I've been on, here's to next season :)
     
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  16. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Granted, some of that nine seconds is down to the conditions. But it does highlight the fact that Hamilton deliberately backed off and then thumbed his nose at everyone by calling it racing.
     
  17. Northstar

    Northstar Premium

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    Would you call what Rosberg did in Brazil racing?
     
  18. TiZzla

    TiZzla

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    Yeah I don't think that extends to sabotaging your team mates result, and Lewis was clearly not saving the engine as he was going extremely slow in the final sector but full speed everywhere else.

    I really hope they get rid of these ridiculous engine rules, I just want to see flat out racing.
     
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  19. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Which part, specifically?
     
  20. Northstar

    Northstar Premium

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    I can't decide whether I want to use the part where he didn't really do anything all race or the other part where he didn't really do anything all race.

    It sure didn't seem like he was trying to catch Hamilton at all and the one time he was challenged he just let Max sail right on by.
     
  21. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    He didn't need to. He only needed podiums to get the result he wanted. As for letting Verstappen "sail right on by", the phrase "choose your battles" springs to mind.

    If you wanted a champion's drive from Rosberg, you got one in Abu Dhabi - putting in fast laps on demand, passing Verstappen (one of the most difficult drivers to overtake) on a circuit criticised for its lack of overtaking, and resisting both the pressure from Hamilton and Vettel to finish second. It might not have been a race win, but he achieved a lot and he certainly didn't coast to the title.
     
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  22. Samus

    Samus

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    So he did what he needed to do to get the result he wanted, is what you're saying? Because that's what Hamilton was doing.
     
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  23. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    But Rosberg didn't stoop to dirty tricks to do it.
     
  24. Leadfoot530

    Leadfoot530

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    Because he didn't need to. Even on the last lap of the race, he could have let Vettel by, and outran Max easily, and would have won the championship without so much as an ounce of effort.

    After reading though all this, it's just kind of funny. Mercedes pretty much put themselves in this situation. If their car wasn't running away from the field, nobody would be complaining abjt Hamilton holding anybody up, and a real race for a Championshipcould have occured. It's just rather...odd, I suppose, to think of it that way.
     
  25. Samus

    Samus

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    Those dirty Sauber drivers need a talking to then.
     
  26. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    I wouldn't be so sure. If Vettel passed Rosberg down the back straight, he could have done a block pass into Turn 8 to deny Rosberg the apex to Turn 9; that would force Rosberg to pull up or go wide, giving Verstappen an opportunity on the approach to Turn 11.

    Eh? I don't recall any lapped traffic being tardy in getting out of the way (though it was 1:30am). If anything, I was surprised that Hamilton didn't time his run passing lapped traffic to impede Rosberg further.
     
  27. Samus

    Samus

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    My semi-serious point is that Sauber's naturally run around the circuit several seconds slower than a Merc, people find a way to deal with that when they're racing for position, they overtake them. Running around the track slower than the ultimate pace is not dirty driving. Cars have been doing that since the dawn of racing, and other cars have been overtaking them. Weaving across the track, blocking, brake checking etc, that is dirty driving.
     
  28. TiZzla

    TiZzla

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    That's completely different though, as they aren't going slower on purpose. The only legitimate reason a driver will go slower than they can is to either preserve the car/tyres or to reduce the risk. Obviously neither of those were the case in this situation, it was just purely about making Nico vulnerable to Seb and Max.

    The way Lewis was doing it meant that Nico couldn't get past despite the slow lap times as he was only going slow in the final sector where passing is not possible.
     
  29. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    It is when you're doing it to manipulate the outcome of the race.

    But we're not talking about a Sauber impeding a Mercedes. We're talking about a Mercedes impeding a Mercedes.

    And Hamilton was arguably blocking. He was deliberately driving slowly to force Rosberg to drive equally slowly, and only ever pulling away to prevent him from overtaking.
     
  30. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Doesn't matter, they'll all be sacked soon :)

    Good point - if Hamilton was indeed 9 seconds slower than he could/should have been then Rosberg should have just passed him and buggered off into the sunset. The max potential actually seems to have been 1:43.729, not that facts matter :)

    Sources have Hamilton backing off to a 1:46.8 and I remember the commentary mentioning that he was around the 1:45/1:46 mark for much of the last section of the race. 9 seconds it ain't.

    Boo, you're only upset that nobody's talking about the Belgian :D
     
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