2016 Formula 1 Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by TenEightyOne, Nov 24, 2016.

  1. Betty blue

    Betty blue

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    You have to accept losing as you accept winning, it's a sport ! I wouldn't ruin or intervene with anyone's race in order to win. That's cheating in my prospective. I mean ! I dont get why people try to defend what Hamilton has done ! Whether you cheer for Him or not , there's nothing justifies his low sportsmanlike that we have seen.
     
  2. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Absolutely. And you're allowed to do everything within the rules to win, it's a sport.

    I didn't see any black flags out there - did you?
     
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  3. niky

    niky Moderator

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    It's not nice, but it's not illegal.

    Hamilton did not weave in front of Nico.

    Hamilton did not block him.

    Hamilton did nothing to prevent Nico from overtaking him in those sections where he slowed him down.

    It's a perfectly legitimate race strategy that doesn't risk Mercedes' first place in the Constructor's Championship (They've won it already) or their 1-2 in the Driver's Championship (they could both crash out and still be 1 and 2... and no, Lewis did not try to make Nico crash).

    Nico himself said he "understood"... winning is everything to many racers. Hamilton is not a gentleman. He is a racer. He will do everything he can to win. Psychological tricks. Bending (not breaking) the rules. Driving aggressively and purposefully.

    Hamilton has beaten Nico two years in a row by pushing hard, getting into Nico's head and dominating him both mentally and physically (on track). I think this year, however, Nico has simply chosen not to let Hamilton get to him. Sure, he's done a few boneheaded things, but by and large, he's kept his head down and has raced well, focusing on the racing itself and not distracting himself with thoughts about the championship, "which girlfriend do I bring to the race next week" and "how's my Twitter feed doing". Hamilton could learn something from that. Hell... I thought he learned it from Jenson, already... how quickly he's forgotten!

    -

    In the end, the fact that Lewis threw everything but the kitchen sink at Nico made Nico's victory just that much sweeter.

    I would not want a race in which either driver rolled over and let the other win.

    That simply would not be racing.
     
  4. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    It's because he's popular. Everyone will dismiss his behaviour as the ends justifying the means. They'll say "he's a racer, and if he didn't try to win it, then he wouldn't be a racer anymore", or "the team still got the result that they wanted, so he didn't really do anything wrong", or the old favourite "if you see a gap, you have to go for it". It's obvious Mercedes won't do anything, because Toto Wolff has already said that this episode is something that Mercedes will need to take into account every time they make a decision mid-race from now on. It just enables Hamilton; he already disobeys team orders, forces others wide and publicly questions the wisdom of team decisions.

    But imagine for the moment, this scenario: Hamilton has a twelve-point over Rosberg lead in the WDC. Rosberg streaks away at the start, but Hamilton is pinned behind Verstappen in second. Meanwhile, Red Bull just need thirty points to secure the WCC, so they give Verstappen the order to help Ricciardo, who sits fourth, by blocking Hamilton. Going into the final lap, Ricciardo has the pace to take Hamilton. If he makes it work, Rosberg is champion and Red Bull win the WCC. If he fails, Hamilton is champion and Mercedes win the WCC.

    Those same people who defend Hamilton today would be the first to crucify Verstappen.

    I did see an irony flag.

    "Formula One is terrible," they said. "The drivers can't push at 100% because they have to look after the tyres and the fuel levels. But it's okay if one drivet deliberately drives nine seconds per lap off the pace if it means he might win the World Championship."

    There might not have been a black and white flag, but that doesn't mean that what Hamilton did was sporting.
     
  5. Samus

    Samus

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    Except he hadn't lost. He was trying to win. You don't win if you accept losing before it's over.

    He didn't intervene in anyone's race. He drove his own race, slower than he could have done. As @niky said he didn't block anyone passing, he didn't weave around the track, he didn't brake check. He just drove slower. People in cars down the grid do that all the time because they won't go any faster, you know how the others deal with it? They try to overtake them. Just because Hamilton was doing it on purpose is irrelevant, nothing says you have to drive at 100% of your car capability.


    That is a......rather specific and rather different fictional scenario.
     
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  6. niky

    niky Moderator

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    It calls to mind a race a few weeks back where one of the RBRs (I believe, the memory is hazy, as most F1 races come on around midnight here) backed a Ferrari into the other RBR as part of their race strategy to try to leapfrong him.

    -

    It's a viable strategy. And as long as you don't break the rules, perfectly legal.
     
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  7. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    I was trying to create a scenario where a) a driver - in this case, Verstappen - who was unable to win the WDC was impeding Hamilton, but b) actually had a reason to be doing it, such as helping his team win the WCC.

    So let's simplify it: Hamilton has a twelve-point lead over Rosberg. Rosberg leads, and Hamilton is second. Rosberg starts backing Hamilton up, hoping that Vettel and Verstappen can pass him, and he wins the championship. In other words, exactly what happened last night, but the other way around. I guarantee you that the people who defend Hamilton today wiould be the same people who are first in line to condemn Rosberg.

    The point that I am trying to make is that there is a double standard among fans: Hamilton is well within his rights to do X, but if someone does X to him, they'd better watch out. Earlier in the year, Hamilton was apparently free to ignore team orders if they were inconvenient, but expect Rosberg to obey them if asked.
     
  8. Samus

    Samus

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    Isn't that the same for any fan of a specific driver? Hamilton is certainly not unique in that respect, it's just that naturally as a veteran, driving the best car and 3x WDC he has a lot of vocal fans.

    You're always going to get bias and double standards among fans with any sport so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
     
  9. H20HYBRID_GT

    H20HYBRID_GT

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    Actually, I thought it was quite impressive what Hamilton was doing and yeah, I don't see how it was unfair or anything - pretty much everyone would have done this in his position imo.

    Exactly, if anything I found it weird they did this, didn't they always say they wouldn't interfere with the championship...?



    PS: This race had the worst commentary ever on RTL, like seriously I think I'll not watch them anymore - if I can find a better alternative, I don't mind paying either.

    They basically kept saying things how Rosberg would lose the championship, by backmarkers doing some desperate stuff taking him out, then Hamilton blocking him into Verstappen (somehow?) who would then proceed to Maldonado him off the track and of course Rosberg's engine was in imminent danger of exploding at time, it was absolutely ridiculous. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  10. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    Once again, how is this the pinnacle of motorsport? I'd like see them in Formula Fords or F4 style cars fighting for the C'hip. Won't be any of the backing up traffic stuff. Might see more whincing and knashing of teeth.
     
  11. Liquid

    Liquid Premium

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    You have to consider the context though; Nico Rosberg was 2nd in the race and Lewis Hamilton slowed down because his only win scenario was for Rosberg to not finish on the podium. It's just the circumstances, that's not the norm for a race like that.

    The fact that the title went down to the wire and was decided by 5 points, just 2 points in old money, coupled with the fact that the title went down to the last laps of the last race... that was exciting stuff.

    ---

    That being said, I did not enjoy Hamilton's tactics. It's all fine and dandy having a "win at all costs" attitude but don't pretend that it wasn't deliberate or pretend that you were chivalrous in the quest for the title. Be the heel and suck up the hate if that's how you're going to play it.

    Where do team orders come into play? The team were guaranteed the driver's title but one of their drivers was deliberately trying to ruin the other driver's race. If they were from two separate teams I'd have no qualms about any of it and consider it racing but because they were team mates, the team should take priority and be listened to. Regardless of Rosberg not being able (or simply not being willing?) to overtake Hamilton, a team order is there for a reason; the team are protecting their own interests.

    It kind of reminds me of Belgium 1998 and the famous "Ralf, you cannot overtake Damon. That is a team order." call. Had Ralf ignored that and tried to overtake, sure it would have been racing and exciting to watch but the team would have been furious that one of the drivers on his own initiative risked the entire team's race.
     
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  12. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    It wasnt as thrilling as when Hamilton got his C'hip(1- pt still) by Jarno letting him pass. It ould have been just as thrilling if Lewis put the hammer down. Slowing at a snail's pace actually preserved the cars(unless there was some overheating telemetry I missed).
     
  13. TRGTspecialist

    TRGTspecialist

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    To be fair to Mercedes, their radio interventions late in the race looked like they were in response to Vettel - who at one point was catching the leaders at an alarming rate - and I think they were worried that Lewis wasn't fully aware of it, and his backing up would leave him vulnerable to Vettel easily getting past him and taking the win. I guess you could argue Mercedes shouldn't care much about a single race win after getting a million of them, but either way I don't think they were meaning to directly interfere with the championship.
     
  14. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

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    I wanted Nico to win the WDC but I understand Lewis's tactics. It's a heel move but he didn't really have much choice, it gained Nico some new fans though like Brundle said.
     
  15. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    They did show him one ;)
     
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  16. Vinylshark

    Vinylshark

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    At the end they got their 1-2 finish, true. But Lewis still ignored clear instructions from the team. If they don't punish Lewis now they will give future drivers the impression, that they can carelessly ignore team instructions and don't have to fear punishment afterwards. I think instead of "should they punish Lewis?" the question should be rather "how could they even punish Lewis?" Giving him a fine surely won't bother him or stop him from doing it again.
     
  17. shoemaker

    shoemaker

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    Lewis did what he needed to,you cant blame him for that. Nico deserved the wdc. He showed us all he CAN,fair play to him,proved me wrong!
     
  18. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    You applying a blanket assumption here to try and support what seems to be a pro-Rosberg/ anti-Hamilton bias of your own.

    Personally I have no issue at all with what Hamilton did, nor would I if the circumstances were reversed (my personal favorite F1 driver retired yesterday - so I have no horse in this race).

    If Rosberg had an issue with Hamilton's pace then he did have an option, its called overtaking him.

    Hamilton didn't weave, block or attempt to take Rosberg out at all, he controlled the pace to maximise his chances of still retaining the WDC. Did it make Rosberg's job harder? Yes it did, but the last time I checked it wasn't supposed to be easy.

    Oh and I don't doubt for a second that if the situation had been reversed that Rosberg would have done the exact same thing (and I wouldn't have an issue with it at all).

    Lets also not forget the elements of sports psychology that go into this. Had Hamilton let Rosberg passed and he gone onto win he would have also taken the lead in the number of wins in 2016 as well (10 to 9) as the WDC. Going into 2017 that would have given Rosberg a significant psychological edge, as it is they go into 2017 with Rosberg WDC, but with Hamilton retaining the win lead from 2016. Its a factor that can't be underplayed or ignored.
     
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  19. Samus

    Samus

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    I could be wrong but I don't think ROS actually made a single attempt at overtaking HAM, did he? That's what makes the moaning about Hamilton all the more bizarre, if ROS felt he was so slow he could've at least tried to overtake him. He didn't, presumably because he feared HAM would ease him out, compromise him and potentially lose 2nd/3rd. That would have been a genuine talking point, as it is nothing actually happened.

    Like I said, nobody complains at a Sauber for driving slowly, they just do something about it. ROS chose not to, for whatever reason.
     
  20. justin credible

    justin credible

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    Well done Nico Rosberg a deserved Championship Winner.
    Well a championship is won over the full season, Inc bad luck, bad starts, penalties etc the same for every driver.
    So the question on peoples lips is did Hamilton drive the race fairly?
    I am no Hamilton fan at all but I can see what he was doing, simply trying every LEGAL trick in the book to win the title.
    It's not nice on the eye and maybe shows a lack of dignity for himself and his team. But as Lewis said himself he is there to win.
    I love the winners mentality but there is something in Hamilton which always has me cheering for the other bloke, can't say exactly what it is I don't know I just don't like the way he comes across I suppose.
    I have heard others say maybe it's because he lies or because he will take out his own team mate to stop them winning again I am not sure I just am not a fan.
    Alas he is quick very quick but if I was Toto or Christian would I want him in my team? No I wouldn't If I had the pick of the talent available Lewis would be quiet a way down the pecking order due to him being How can I put it? just such an unlikeable presence with what seems to me an underlying vile streak.

    Nico drove well again brilliant overtake on Max when he had to Congrats to Max on another fine display but huge well done to Seb who was going like a man possessed.

    A Fond farewell to Jenson Button and one of my favourite drivers ever Filipe Massa god bless to you both and good luck in future endeavours, Thanks for entertaining us.

    Enjoy it Nico well done again Champion.
     
  21. Ryk

    Ryk

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    Niki Lauda eluded to a problem with a critical component in Hamilton's Mercedes at the end of the race that caused a dramatic drop in expected pace.

    Mercedes may have to isolate the rogue part and find out if they can retool and reprogram it for next season or if they have to discard it and replace it for 2017...
     
  22. justin credible

    justin credible

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    Is this a wind up?

    If this was the case why didn't Nico's side tell him to push and overtake Lewis?
    Lewis knew what he as doing speeding up in places to ensure Nico wasn't within DRS then slowing to allow Max or anyone overtake Nico. A race tactic simple as. Mercedes will cover themselves by saying anything to save face from a undignified display.
    And on that track it is difficult enough to overtake but surely if Lewis was struggling for pace he would have been overtaken by a few. He had the pace imo but tried tactics.

    If you were Nico would you have settled for a podium or took the risk of attacking Hamilton thinking there could of being different circumstances to talk about today if he had attacked?
     
  23. Dreadmed

    Dreadmed

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    Just my personal opinion, but I believe Nico may have been too skittish to try a move on Lewis once it was obvious he wasn't going to meekly surrender the title. It's one thing to make a pass on any of the other 22 drivers in the field (as he did on Verstappen), it's quite another to try it on your championship rival who has nothing to lose from a collision... accidental or otherwise. Considering the engine gremlins Lewis suffered from, I'm guessing Nico didn't want to tempt fate one more time.
     
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  24. Samus

    Samus

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    Niki said something along those lines on the C4 coverage, he was definitely being facetious. He knew what Hamilton was doing.
     
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  25. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    It would have been fun to see Lewis give Nico a brake test. Massive dignity points.
     
  26. TheCracker

    TheCracker Premium

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    If Mercedes do punish Hamilton, the only impression they'll give is that they don't give their drivers the opportunity to battle for the title.

    If Hamilton is punished in the form of a penalty, all they'll achieve is to demotivate him into losing his trust in Mercedes and possibly looking for another team to race for.

    As it stands, what he did in the race didn't change the results in any way. Had he just sprinted off into the distance with Rosberg following suit a little way behind, the race and championship results would have been exactly the same.
     
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  27. Ryk

    Ryk

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    Niki was grumpy after the race with a TV interview, probably as he could see everything going wrong from what should have been a very easy 1-2 for his team. - The critical component was the driver. It did make for a very entertaining last few laps of the race.

    But From Niki's point of view he was looking at a glorious 1-2 turning into a double retirement like Barcelona again.

    Niki said "Er untergräbt die gesamte Struktur des Teams und alles, was wir machen. Damit stellt er natürlich einen Präzedenzfall für zukünftige Fahrer auf."

    "He (Lewis) undermines the whole structure of the team and everything we do, which naturally sets a precedent for future drivers."
     
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  28. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    So let me check, Max drives just fine but Hamilton is a vile person who takes people out?

    Have you missed the constant blocking that Max has engaged in for most of the season or are you simply applying a huge double standard?

    Hamilton has a lack of dignity for himself and the team, but Vetal's outburst at Charlie Whiting over the radio was dignified was it?
     
  29. Vinylshark

    Vinylshark

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    When Lewis got the instructions Verstappen and Vettel were catching up more and more with each sector. Just because nothing happend at the end (one reason being Vettel not even trying to overtake in the final lap) doesn't mean that what Lewis did was ok and should just be swallowed by the team. Mercedes surely doesn't care which one of the two will be WDC. They mostly care about the team results and Hamilton brought this 1-2 finish to an unnecessary risk.
     
  30. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    Predictably the Beeb are positing garbage like this:

    15219630_10154820264653169_3628435543699837884_n.jpg