2016 Pirelli Chinese Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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twitcher
Limited elevation change is the main weekness I suppose
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I have never understood the school of thought thst elevation changes always produce good racing. Silverstone was built on a derelict RAF base, so it's got about as much elevation change as a billiards table, but it still produces good racing. Spa, on the other hand, is an absolute roller coaster, but it has produced dull racing in the past.
 
prisonermonkeys
I have never understood the school of thought thst elevation changes always produce good racing. Silverstone was built on a derelict RAF base, so it's got about as much elevation change as a billiards table, but it still produces good racing. Spa, on the other hand, is an absolute roller coaster, but it has produced dull racing in the past.
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I think the obsession with elevation change is the challenge it presents. It also looks good on camera. You're right though, it doesn't always produce good racing.

Also, variety is always good. Nothing wrong with having a calander filled with tracks that vary is characteristics.
 
prisonermonkeys
I have never understood the school of thought thst elevation changes always produce good racing. Silverstone was built on a derelict RAF base, so it's got about as much elevation change as a billiards table, but it still produces good racing. Spa, on the other hand, is an absolute roller coaster, but it has produced dull racing in the past.
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I've never heard anyone mention it as anything that contributes to the quality of racing before now. It's more aesthetic or enjoyable for the drivers than anything. Track design and enabling multiple strategies would sure help a lot more with the quality of the races.

Now that we struck gold with the new tyre rules some tracks that were once duds can produce good races and overtaking now, Bahrain being one, Albert Park another. Hopefully the new rules can save Sochi, as it's exclusively had average races so far.
 
prisonermonkeys
I have never understood the school of thought thst elevation changes always produce good racing. Silverstone was built on a derelict RAF base, so it's got about as much elevation change as a billiards table, but it still produces good racing. Spa, on the other hand, is an absolute roller coaster, but it has produced dull racing in the past.
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Sort of a subpoint I was thinking when I made my last post. Spa is a good example because - I hate to say it - the past few years haven't produced the kind of great races we would expect from the circuit. Even extends to the WEC unfortunately. Yet all of the Silverstone races I've seen have been better in comparison.

Ultimately it mostly comes down the cars, but another portion is just how ballsy the drivers were feeling, in one sense or another.

I wouldn't expect this level of crazy every year from Spa, but to my memory about the most memorable thing since then was the Rosberg Hamilton controversial crash. The races there still tend to be miles better than most, but what I'm saying is they seem disproportionately tame for the track and what it is.

Now with Shanghai, I always get a laugh out of how it has the longest freakin straight in the calendar, yet still they end up 15-20mph slower than the fastest speeds we see at Monza, Mexico, etc. Mainly has to do with the lead in I presume. And the elevation changes look so "artificial", as if the pure intention was to make things look a little less flat.
 
Whodoyouthink
Sort of a subpoint I was thinking when I made my last post. Spa is a good example because - I hate to say it - the past few years haven't produced the kind of great races we would expect from the circuit. Even extends to the WEC unfortunately. Yet all of the Silverstone races I've seen have been better in comparison.

Ultimately it mostly comes down the cars, but another portion is just how ballsy the drivers were feeling, in one sense or another.

I wouldn't expect this level of crazy every year from Spa, but to my memory about the most memorable thing since then was the Rosberg Hamilton controversial crash. The races there still tend to be miles better than most, but what I'm saying is they seem disproportionately tame for the track and what it is.

Now with Shanghai, I always get a laugh out of how it has the longest freakin straight in the calendar, yet still they end up 15-20mph slower than the fastest speeds we see at Monza, Mexico, etc. Mainly has to do with the lead in I presume. And the elevation changes look so "artificial", as if the pure intention was to make things look a little less flat.
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In regards to the "artificial elevation changes", I don't think there's anything wrong with that if they are done correctly. Not saying Shanghai's are good or bad, I'm talking more in general. For example, the little hills at the Slovakiaring are about as artificial as it can get, but they still add nicely to the flow of the track.
 
Peter.
Hopefully the new rules can save Sochi, as it's exclusively had average races so far.
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It took a while for the likes of Shanghai and Bahrain to start producing good racing. The circuit needs to bed in a little bit. Shanghai is built on reclaimed swampland, so parts of the circuit have subsided.

The problem Sochi faces is that there is no scope for the circuit to evolve like that. It's built on the Winter Olympic precinct, which was itself built ftom scratch. However, bringing the race forward might help; it's now in the Russian spring rather than late autumn, so temperatures will be up. It's also the race début of the ultrasoft tyres, so there's another variable.

The one thing that I do like about Sochi is the setting. It's something that has been lacking from recent new additions to the calendar. Shanghai and Abu Dhabi are pretty genetic, but in Sochi we have the Black Sea on one side and snowy mountains in the background. When the cars go down the main straight, there's a shot of what looks like a Russian cathedral (though I am not actually sure what it is), and then there's the central medals plaza on the inside of Turn 3. Maybe these are just trimmings, but to me they're pretty important because Formula One needs to have that slightly larger-than-life quality, the "benign bizarre" that looks like a Ken Adam film set. You see the Sochi circuit and you know that you're in Russia. Korea had it, too, with the Korean architecture. But it's lacking from Shanghai and Abu Dhabi (one could argue that it's also missing from Bahrain, but I think that the desert locale is actually really stunning in a minimalist way).
 
prisonermonkeys
I have never understood the school of thought thst elevation changes always produce good racing. Silverstone was built on a derelict RAF base, so it's got about as much elevation change as a billiards table, but it still produces good racing. Spa, on the other hand, is an absolute roller coaster, but it has produced dull racing in the past.
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I don't think "always" should be expected in this sport. But watching the cars get somewhat upset by seeing damping rates affect performance, or off-camber drops providing changes in available traction is part of the spectacle. Blind turns, curves with track height changes looks a lot more dramatic and interesting. While a good race and plenty of action makes up for it, it sure is much more fun to watch the cars and drivers react to the track in those occasional lap-reeling moments.
 
twitcher
In regards to the "artificial elevation changes", I don't think there's anything wrong with that if they are done correctly. Not saying Shanghai's are good or bad, I'm talking more in general. For example, the little hills at the Slovakiaring are about as artificial as it can get, but they still add nicely to the flow of the track.
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I think I used the wrong word. I mean COTA, my favorite American track, has a super artificial turn 1. What I mean is they don't feel like they have any sort of natural flow to them. Very abrupt or random is the way I perceive them. The curvy complex out of turn 1 is not so bad, but the rest of the elevations just seem off.

There is one turn, I forget which one, that seems to have a sort of banking to it, which probably helps with cornering speeds, but it still looks out of place. I forget if it's more off camber or more banked.
 
Whodoyouthink
COTA, my favorite American track, has a super artificial turn 1.
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Actually, the elevation is entirely natural. When he first conceived the idea of the race in Austin, Tavo deliberately chose the land at Wandering Creek because of the elevations. When the circuit was designed, they intentionally went against the natural contours of the land to create the dramatic approach to Turn 1. There's nothing artificial about it, aside from some grading that was necessary to lay the road base.
 
With Renault openly talking about Esteban Ocon and Nicolas Latifi having a future in Formula One, Palmer must have been racing for his career since Melbourne. I think it's pretty obvious that they only took him because he was already signed; had they taken over Lotus sooner, they wouldn't have been stuck with him.
 
Thought Kimi was at fault really. He had lots of room to continue forward on the outside but decided to move to the right sharply giving no time for Vettel or other cars. Call it a racing incident but I don't see Kvyat being responsible.
 
Kvyat had every right to go there. Vettel panicked and Kimi squeezed so they both crashed.

Vettel should have got a penalty for overtaking under yellows, along with Hulkenberg slowing them down, not instead of.
 
Jimlaad43
Kvyat had every right to go there. Vettel panicked and Kimi squeezed so they both crashed.

Vettel should have got a penalty for overtaking under yellows, along with Hulkenberg slowing them down, not instead of.
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Pitlane doesn't count as under yellows, its still active
 
Pluxtheduck
Pitlane doesn't count as under yellows, its still active
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Yes it does. If there are yellow flags or safety car boards, you do not overtake at all. The pitlane entry has the exact same rules, as it has yellow flags governing it waved before the final turn.
 
Jimlaad43
Yes it does. If there are yellow flags or safety car boards, you do not overtake at all. The pitlane entry has the exact same rules, as it has yellow flags governing it waved before the final turn.
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No. Pitlane entry is treated the same as a car that is disabled on the track. If you cant pass in the pits then every car that drives by a pit stall with a car in it would get a penalty, just like if you passed a stalled car on the track under yellow.
 
IforceV8
No. Pitlane entry is treated the same as a car that is disabled on the track. If you cant pass in the pits then every car that drives by a pit stall with a car in it would get a penalty, just like if you passed a stalled car on the track under yellow.
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Pit lane and Pit entry are completely different things. Pit entry is still classed as part of the track
 
IforceV8
No. Pitlane entry is treated the same as a car that is disabled on the track. If you cant pass in the pits then every car that drives by a pit stall with a car in it would get a penalty, just like if you passed a stalled car on the track under yellow.
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No, as @Jimlaad43 says they are designated separately (as is the pit exit). Further to that the pit lane itself is divided into "fast lane" and "inner lane". @Jimlaad43 is also correct that Vettel should not have overtaken there.... with one technical exception; no car can drive unusually slowly even under yellows. That may be a technicality but it's one that the stewards upheld correctly.

IforceV8
Nope.
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Yep.
 
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TenEightyOne
No, as @Jimlaad43 says they are designated separately (as is the pit exit). Further to that the pit lane itself is divided into "fast lane" and "inner lane". @Jimlaad43 is also correct that Vettel should not have overtaken there.... with one technical exception; no car can drive unusually slowly even under yellows. That may be a technicality but it's one that the stewards upheld correctly.



Yep. 28.1 to 28.4 is where you need to look.
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That only applies to where the pit lane speed limiter is required. There is no speed limit in China until the "pit entry" because of the distance required to travel to enter the pits.
 
IforceV8
That only applies to where the pit lane speed limiter is required. There is no speed limit in China until the "pit entry" because of the distance required to travel to enter the pits.
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Try this then, it's the technicality which was the basis for the stewarding of that incident;

27.5
At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.
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IforceV8
That only applies to where the pit lane speed limiter is required. There is no speed limit in China until the "pit entry" because of the distance required to travel to enter the pits.
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Exactly, there is no speed limit there, so it is designated as a place of yellow flags. Do you think cars would be allowed to overtake there when someone was buried in the wall like Hamilton or Maldonado have done? No, Ferrari had a bad start and the FIA went blind to them breaking the rules again. In terms of people on GTP to argue with about Yellow Flag zones and overtaking, I am a bad person for you to go against, seeing as I have been a marshal for around 6 years now, and I know the yellow flag rules properly, and have no qualms about reporting people overtaking under them. I've caught Max Verstappen doing it.
 
Jimlaad43
Exactly, there is no speed limit there, so it is designated as a place of yellow flags. Do you think cars would be allowed to overtake there when someone was buried in the wall like Hamilton or Maldonado have done? No, Ferrari had a bad start and the FIA went blind to them breaking the rules again. In terms of people on GTP to argue with about Yellow Flag zones and overtaking, I am a bad person for you to go against, seeing as I have been a marshal for around 6 years now, and I know the yellow flag rules properly, and have no qualms about reporting people overtaking under them. I've caught Max Verstappen doing it.
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Prove it.
 
If a car is deemed to be moving too slowly you can pass it, even under yellow or SC. We've seen it many times when additional cars have an issue behind the SC. Vettel certainly risked it though, deciding Hulk was moving slow enough to be passed legally.
 
IforceV8
Prove it.
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The regulations posted for you and explained by me and others specifically allow it - that's to say it is explicitly specified.

Presumably you're continuing with an argument that the stewards made the wrong decision and that Vettel shouldn't have been allowed to pass where he did. The rules say he is allowed therefore the stewards made the correct decision.

If, on the other hand, you're asking @Jimlaad43 to prove his marshalling experience I suggest you look back through some of his posts and pictures.
 

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