2016 Verizon IndyCar SeriesOpen Wheel

[Eva]

I'm not really a fan of canopies. I'd like to see a LMP style cockpit with doors on both sides for a quick escape.



The FIA report states that his head striking the tractor played a big part in his brain injuries. If his head did not strike that tractor, who knows? Maybe he could have had a chance. But the report does state his head striking the tractor was a significant contributing factor to his brain injuries.



Formula 1 cars dont need to be open wheeled or open cockpit to still be the fastest racing cars. A LMP1 car can turn the same laptimes as a F1 cars with the same closed body design if the rules gave more freedom in terms of minimum weight, aerodynamics etc.

And these accidents have opened to my eyes to the unnecessary risks these drivers are taking. 15 years ago Indycar raced 250mph at Michigan when half the track had no catch fencing. 5 years ago people stood inside the pit wall at Indianapolis during the race, mere feet from 230mph cars.

Sometimes we dont realize how unsafe and insane some things are until they're done away with or result in tragedy. In the 50s the only thing between 150mph Le Mans cars and spectators was a mound of dirt. This continued until the 1955 disaster. Just a couple of years ago there were large trees behind the guard railing at Le Mans which contributed to the death of Alan Simonsen.

Looking back at all that we realize how unsafe such conditions were for drivers and spectators and we would never think of returning to them.

Race cars going 200mph is already dangerous enough. The added danger of open cockpits and openwheels is completely unnecessary.



All I think drivers want is the best chance to survive a crash with their life. I've seen racecar drivers survive some horrifiying things. Mika Hakkinen survived a brutal head on crash at Adelaide in 1995 with no Hans device and '95 era safety. Yes it was into tire barriers, but the speed of impact and time it took to stop seemed similiar to Bianchi's 78mph crash.

The report says the crash was unsurvivable even with a closed cockpit. However this discounts the extra trauma Bianchi suffered as a result of a open cockpit and his head striking the tractor. The fact remains that survivable or not, Bianchi's injuries would have been less severe with a closed cockpit. If he had struck the tractor at 50mph instead of 78mph, would the closed cockpit have been enough to save him? Again, these drivers deserve the best safety measures which give them the best chance to survive accidents and reduce injury severity.

Something that for the sake of affordability and sustainability won't happen. You are throwing a ton of ifs at an idea that has been tested and turned away by IndyCar and F1 alike. Closed cockpits, covered wheels won't be happening. If they did, we'd have a DeltaWing DW12, not a Dallara DW12 and IndyCar would not only become a joke, it wouldn't exist at this point. Switching to a LMP body moves it from open wheel where it belongs to overpowered Prototype Challenge cars. The idea of LMP cars for IndyCar alone is hilarious, not to mention more expensive. I agree with GTPorsche that the sidepods need raised up. But LMP is about as stupid as saying let's race the Isle of Man in an IndyCar, which is a galling prospect, or by saying let's race WEC at the Daytona oval, or by going and telling NASCAR to race on the Nardo Ring. That list is endless.

 

[aarror]

Something that for the sake of affordability and sustainability won't happen. You are throwing a ton of ifs at an idea that has been tested and turned away by IndyCar and F1 alike. Closed cockpits, covered wheels won't be happening. If they did, we'd have a DeltaWing DW12, not a Dallara DW12 and IndyCar would not only become a joke, it wouldn't exist at this point. Switching to a LMP body moves it from open wheel where it belongs to overpowered Prototype Challenge cars. The idea of LMP cars for IndyCar alone is hilarious, not to mention more expensive. I agree with GTPorsche that the sidepods need raised up. But LMP is about as stupid as saying let's race the Isle of Man in an IndyCar, which is a galling prospect, or by saying let's race WEC at the Daytona oval, or by going and telling NASCAR to race on the Nardo Ring. That list is endless.

I get that you don't like the idea of closed cockpits, but that last part is simply ridiculous. And you know what? I'm not sure Indycar does need to exist anymore. Oval racing these cars is stupidly dangerous, and with minimal fan and sponsor involvement and no road car relevance, it's hard to see why it's necessary. How many fans were at the race today? Certainly not enough to justify risking a driver's life. (There, a ridiculous response to a ridiculous statement.)

My simple solution? Make the bodywork out of plastic, rather than heavy carbon fibre. Then if/when a piece inevitably hits a driver in the head it won't have such a huge effect. (And with the way the new body kits, bodywork hitting a driver in the head was only a matter of time.)

 

[Eva]

I get that you don't like the idea of closed cockpits, but that last part is simply ridiculous. And you know what? I'm not sure Indycar does need to exist anymore. Oval racing these cars is stupidly dangerous, and with minimal fan and sponsor involvement and no road car relevance, it's hard to see why it's necessary. How many fans were at the race today? Certainly not enough to justify risking a driver's life. (There, a ridiculous response to a ridiculous statement.)

My simple solution? Make the bodywork out of plastic, rather than heavy carbon fibre. Then if/when a piece inevitably hits a driver in the head it won't have such a huge effect. (And with the way the new body kits, bodywork hitting a driver in the head was only a matter of time.)

Plastic at 170 mph wouldn't make much of a difference would it? That piece was huge.

 

[aarror]

Plastic at 170 mph wouldn't make much of a difference would it? That piece was huge.

Would be significantly lighter, but at that speed he'd still have a head injury for sure. Imagine if someone was hit in the head with one of the rear wheel pods though, they'd probably be killed on the spot. I'm not sure what the solution is, but its something Indycar has to take a good look at.

 

[GTRacer22]

Teathers probably wouldn't work as well as they do with wheels. They could try it, but I don't know if it would work well.

Also, one of my friends was at the race today, and even talked to Wilson before the race. He said the mood was pretty somber after the incident, but that's pretty much a given. He also said some of the track employees didn't even know anyone was airlifted. That doesn't surprise me due to how long it took them to get Wilson from the car to the helicopter, though.

 

[TDZdave]

My simple solution? Make the bodywork out of plastic, rather than heavy carbon fibre. Then if/when a piece inevitably hits a driver in the head it won't have such a huge effect. (And with the way the new body kits, bodywork hitting a driver in the head was only a matter of time.)

Carbon fibre is lighter and stronger then plastic. Id feel so safe doing 30mph in a coke bottle...

 

[TenEightyOne]

Let's be fair, the only vehicle Bianchi would have been safe in is a tank...nothing not even an LMP1 cockpit would have helped. No vehicle could have withstood that impact and even if it did the G-forces would have still been too much.

Exactly this. The technical report on Bianchi's accident is ignored by most keyboard warriors, sadly. I just read "plastic would be safer than carbon fibre" which really goes to show the lack of understanding of materials, physics and the loads involved in these most dangerous of sports.

Very sad to read the news about Justin Wilson, naturally we hope that his condition is temporary and improvable.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Cristiano da Matta survived a head impact with a much heavier deer 9 years ago, long before the Massa strip was added to driver helmets. It looks bad now but there is still hope.

 

[nascarfan1400]

What about a simple rollbar? It would protect against large debris and you could still get out without much fuss.

 

[nascarfan1400]

What about a simple rollbar? It would protect against large debris and you could still get out without much fuss.

 

[Eva]

What about a simple rollbar? It would protect against large debris and you could still get out without much fuss.

It would 1) look really ugly and 20 could compromise extracting the driver.

 

[neljack]

Am wondering whether Indy Car has out grown ovals. I know the drivers know the risk and obviously at high speed circuits it will happen, but at each of the super speedway ovals there's been some insanely big accidents that could have been much worse on another day. And what's the point when the Fontana oval at the same attendance as the little football team I support?

 

[Eva]

Am wondering whether Indy Car has out grown ovals. I know the drivers know the risk and obviously at high speed circuits it will happen, but at each of the super speedway ovals there's been some insanely big accidents that could have been much worse on another day. And what's the point when the Fontana oval at the same attendance as the little football team I support?

This accident wasn't like the Rahal/Vautier one. Karam got loose on his own and Wilson hit a piece of debris. Stupidity wasn't an issue and the same thing could happen at a road course.

 

[Bo]

Yay, I wake up to the old "canopies or I'm never watching motorsport again!". Yawn.

I think a lot of people forget that there are professionals who research and design this safety stuff as their job. If the technology is there and it's not being used, the chances are that it's for a very good reason. It's a bit like the people who campaign against vintage motorsport from taking place until they add rollcages. Do you not think that people have already considered this? If it's possible, viable and comes with little to no complications, people will be working to implement it.

Am wondering whether Indy Car has out grown ovals. I know the drivers know the risk and obviously at high speed circuits it will happen, but at each of the super speedway ovals there's been some insanely big accidents that could have been much worse on another day.

Wilson's crash could've occurred at any circuit with a long straight. Let's ban straights and fast corners.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Hopefully Wilson can make a full recovery.

Motorsport is dangerous.

 

[Vinylshark]

It would 1) look really ugly and 20 could compromise extracting the driver.

I highly doubt that looks matter when it comes to improving safety for drivers.
And if it really should be in the way of extracting a driver, I think it wouldn't be that hard to give the marshalls the right tools to cut it at the base to take it off as one piece. Shoudln't take that much time either.

 

[Bo]

If it's strong enough to deflect 200mph razor sharp shards, it's going to be tough to cut.

Extraction is one of many issues. Glare, temperature and steaming up are big concerns too.

I'd say we leave the for/against arguments for a more appropriate time.

 

[catamount39]

I'd say we leave the for/against arguments for a more appropriate time.

Yes let's save this for the upcoming off season and after we know that Wilson is most assuringly going to be alright.

 

[MatskiMonk]

A motorsport safety thread might not be a bad idea anyway. The discussions inevitably end up spanning multiple threads anyway.

 

[catamount39]

A motorsport safety thread might not be a bad idea anyway. The discussions inevitably end up spanning multiple threads anyway.

Doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Save some space in this thread and the others too.

 

[GTPorsche]

Cristiano da Matta survived a head impact with a much heavier deer 9 years ago, long before the Massa strip was added to driver helmets. It looks bad now but there is still hope.

Slower speed, didn't take the full impact of the deer as it was a glancing blow due to the car knocking he deer partially out of the way. The nosecone that hit Justin was descending towards him when he hit it.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Slower speed, didn't take the full impact of the deer as it was a glancing blow due to the car knocking he deer partially out of the way. The nosecone that hit Justin was descending towards him when he hit it.

Also, I'd have thought since deers are soft the impact energy is dissipated in a slightly less abrupt fashion.

Doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Save some space in this thread and the others too.

I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable to open the thread in the relevant context.

 

[nascarfan1400]

It would 1) look really ugly

Kind of invalid when it comes to driver safety

 

[Christian_C]

Reduce max speeds and average speeds by 20 mph

Teather bodywork

Make anti-intrusion wishbones mandatory

Perform side on crash tests of the monocoque specifically applying loads axially and to the center of the wheels mandating that no component should penetrate the side of the monocoque during this test.

Raise the cockpit sides such that a bar placed horizontally across the sides clears the drivers helmet at the center of the drivers helmet (+/-15 mm) when viewed in sideview.

Increase wing mirrors to double their current size and mandate tests including vibration where the driver must positively identify an item held within a reasonable vision cone behind and to the side of the car (say around 40-60 degrees from the car centerline).

Investigate methods of further reducing the chance of the drivers head striking an object approaching from the front of the car or above. This could but does not strictly include canopies or roll bars.

Personally, i could care less what the car ends up looking like, if drivers moan about the high cockpit sides, if fans moan about the high cockpit sides. Why? Because a driver and a spectators life is far more important than what anyone thinks or writes on the internet, writes in magazines or says on TV.

What all of the above does though is:

1. Reduce the chance of major leg injuries due to suspension components puncturing the tub as has been seen this year and has been making a comeback in recent years (I remember hearing a similar story happening in TUSC/ALMS). This annoys me since the solution was found so long ago in the anti-intrusion wishbone but has fallen out of favour since the popularity of the notoriously difficult to analyse and manufacture carbon fibre arms came about.

2. Reduce the risk of bodywork striking another car or striking a spectator (also seen this year). This is what happens in NASCAR (think hoods, decklids, etc) where these components are teathered to the car. This might be harder with things like nose cones but it is still possible and should be easy with items like bumperpods and sidepods. Maybe even winglets should have some form of teather.

3. Reduce but also increase visibilty through higher cockpits (bad) but larger mirrors and stricter tests (good).

4. Reduce the chance of an object hitting the drivers head and reduce the chance of another car driving over the cockpit since a good 50% of the drivers head is now completely hidden when viewed from the side.

5. Reduce the speeds to reduce the energy involved in crash, kinetic energy increases linearly with respective to the mass involved but increases with the square of the velocity. So a 700 kg mass (approx speedway weight of an indycar) going at 89 m/s (200 mph) has 2.77 MJ of energy, the same object going at 98 m/s (220mph) has 3.36 MJ of energy. That's almost 18% less energy. Less speed = much, much less energy to dissipate = less 'explosive' crashes so less flying parts.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Also, I'd have thought since deers are soft the impact energy is dissipated in a slightly less abrupt fashion.



I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable to open the thread in the relevant context.

An animal traveling over 100 KPH (60 MPH) (or the opposite-standing still and getting hit from that speed) is going to do damage no matter WHAT it is. You could hit a jellyfish at anything over those speeds and get injured.

I'm wondering how long high-speed ovals will remain in racing. Even Nascar.

 

[catamount39]

Would not be surprised though if this is a rough idea of what the 2018 car will look like (but with a centered seat, 720hp, less weight, no lights except for the rear rain light, capable of 230+mph, different aero, no shark fin and maybe even smaller dimensions).

 

[GTPorsche]

The wishbones were fixed after the Hinchcliffe incident.

 

[MatskiMonk]

An animal traveling over 100 KPH (60 MPH) (or the opposite-standing still and getting hit from that speed) is going to do damage no matter WHAT it is. You could hit a jellyfish at anything over those speeds and get injured.

I'm wondering how long high-speed ovals will remain in racing. Even Nascar.

Of course there will be damage, but time taken to dissipate energy is crucial. Carbon fibre is great, the forces is can get rid of in a short amount of time (fractions of a second) are amazing, but it doesn't help much when they are acting directly on the driver.

As for getting rid of high speed ovals, I'll make the same argument I did in the GT thread. Whilst Rallying or Motorcycle road racing exist it's laughable to focus on a top line sport which is actually immensely safe when you consider the risks, severity and frequency of accidents.

 

[GTPorsche]

Seems to be no further update on Sage Karam so I'm guessing there's nothing to report on him in regards to a foot injury. Also seen a lot of well, less educated types, on twitter blaming Sage for what happened. Yes, he crashed, which led to Justin getting hit, but it's not like Sage caused the pieces of his car to go flying.

I'm not sure tethers would work on body parts either. They work on wheels/suspension components because the tethers can be run through the suspension parts. To tether body parts, those tethers would have to be all over the place.

 

[catamount39]

Seems to be no further update on Sage Karam so I'm guessing there's nothing to report on him in regards to a foot injury. Also seen a lot of well, less educated types, on twitter blaming Sage for what happened. Yes, he crashed, which led to Justin getting hit, but it's not like Sage caused the pieces of his car to go flying.

I'm not sure tethers would work on body parts either. They work on wheels/suspension components because the tethers can be run through the suspension parts. To tether body parts, those tethers would have to be all over the place.

That's ridiculous, how could anybody blame Sage for this? Almost feel bad for him for once.