2016 Verizon IndyCar SeriesOpen Wheel 

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Didn't Wheldon's head hit a pole on the catch fence?

Sadly a one in a million accident probably.
 
I'm not denying that driver safety is an issue here. You are correct in saying that you cannot assume that car and regulation changes have completely eliminated the problem - but at the same time, you cannot assume that they have done nothing to fix the problem.

I didn't say or assume they have done nothing - I did say that there has barely been anytime to fully investigate and research the kind of safety improvements that would help.

It wasn't until 2003 that motorsport started mandating the use of the HANS device - and it was invented 2 decades prior! It took several famous fatalaties before people started taking it seriously and even then it took several years of research for the officials to decide it was worth using.

I truly hate how people talk like all is well merely months after a death in the sport. Clearly, something is very wrong and I do not believe enough can be done in just a few months to even understand how to prevent similar accidents.
It just seems like a "watch it anyway and hope for the best that it doesn't happen again" kind of view to me.
 
I didn't say or assume they have done nothing - I did say that there has barely been anytime to fully investigate and research the kind of safety improvements that would help.

It wasn't until 2003 that motorsport started mandating the use of the HANS device - and it was invented 2 decades prior! It took several famous fatalaties before people started taking it seriously and even then it took several years of research for the officials to decide it was worth using.

I truly hate how people talk like all is well merely months after a death in the sport. Clearly, something is very wrong and I do not believe enough can be done in just a few months to even understand how to prevent similar accidents.
It just seems like a "watch it anyway and hope for the best that it doesn't happen again" kind of view to me.

The only thing wrong with Indyars on ovals is running on ovals designed for side by side running NASCARS.

Indycars have raced on ovals since before either you or me was born and, yes it is dangerous, but that's Motor Racing for you. It will continue after this.

What happened to Wheldon was a deeply terrible set of circumstances that you probably couldn't recreate even if you wanted to.

It will not stop me watching Indycars on ovals.
 
Lets put a new slant on it then:

If you experience yet another fatality this year on an Oval, what would you say then?

(Not trying to cause an argument, just trying to debate)
 
Of course I would. I'm a racing fan. If I stopped watching any category of racing because someone dies I would not be able to watch any of them by now.
 
Lets put a new slant on it then:

If you experience yet another fatality this year on an Oval, what would you say then?

I wouldn't say anything. Claiming that ovals can cause racing fatalities is like claiming that airport runways can cause airline passenger fatalities.
 
Lets put a new slant on it then:

If you experience yet another fatality this year on an Oval, what would you say then?

(Not trying to cause an argument, just trying to debate)

Marco Simoncelli
Guido Falaschi
Gustavo Sondermann
Paulo Kunze

All unfortunately passed on a road course, Wheldon was the only oval death I could find. Of course there are periods where the opposite is true, all it proves is that driving fast next to other people going equally fast is indeed dangerous as 2011 has sadly shown us.
 
Marco Simoncelli
Guido Falaschi
Gustavo Sondermann
Paulo Kunze

To be fair, the last two were racing in the notoriously dangerous Brazilian Stock Car Championship and Marco was racing Motorbikes.

There will always be a danger of a motorbike rider falling and being struck by someone who is too close to avoid them. Recently, Shoya Tomizawa, Craig Jones and Peter Lenz all perished in similar circumstances.

That list is a little like comparing apples and oranges. But you have a point that all forms of motorsport are dangerous. Motorbike racing is probably the most dangerous, especially when you add on the IOM tt's annual death toll. I'm inclined to say that open cockpit racing on ovals is also dangerous. We have seen some absolutely hideous crashes over the years that make most other crashes look pale in comparison. Some have been lucky.

I would agree with what some people have been suggesting that more powerful engines would actually help make indycar safer whenever they race on ovals. Forcing the cars to slow down rather than going flat out through the turns would certainly help.

Indycar does need to take a long look at itself and decide whether they should keep running the same spec cars on ovals. But the danger also lies in ridiculous events like we saw at Baltimore this year. Something like that should never happen.



Personally, I am a fan of Indy. Especially when they race at some of the crazy street tracks of the world. But what happened in Baltimore was a joke.
 
I wonder how the Indy aero package would work on the faster ovals.

Actually no.. it probably wouldn't make a difference because Indy is narrower in terms of racing line. The ovals bred for NASCAR have the entire track surface to use in the corners and I think that's the problem right there.

That could be something they need to check out.
 
The only thing wrong with Indyars on ovals is running on ovals designed for side by side running NASCARS.

Indycars have raced on ovals since before either you or me was born and, yes it is dangerous, but that's Motor Racing for you. It will continue after this.

What happened to Wheldon was a deeply terrible set of circumstances that you probably couldn't recreate even if you wanted to.

It will not stop me watching Indycars on ovals.

Motor racing does not equal death. I refuse to watch a sport if death is at all likely (note: I say likely, not possible..death is nearly always possible). Oval racing with open cockpit cars is always going to be more immediately dangerous than on a race circuit, street track or "road course". Yes, the type of oval for Wheldon contributed greatly along with several other factors. But even so, similar factors affect all oval racing - the fact that cars generally come back across the traffic after crashing has always been my main concern. On a race circuit, making a mistake in a corner leads to a gravel trap or a run-off area. And at a street circuit the speeds are usually quite low that even if the cars come back across the track, the accidents are much less likely to be fatal (though places like Macau can be a little crazy) as well as giving more time for drivers to react.

There are a number of other factors in oval racing that I don't like with open cockpit cars but basically its the much higher potential for a nasty accident. It is that that dissuades me, just as it does with MotoGP. As I said, Wheldon's accident has only pushed me into actually deciding not to watch anymore, before that I was on the fence.

There is no reason why I should choose to accept death as part of the sport or a possiblity of the sport. I don't tune in to watch the drivers/riders almost risk death or defy death. I tune in to watch some good racing action, at the limit of their cars but with adequate safety.

I'm not sure I can ever really trust oval racing to be safe enough for Indycars. Maybe I'll come back to it in a few years.
For now I will probably stick to watching the road courses, fortunately the calendar is full of them this year.
 
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You know what would be a weird concept? An oval, but a longer turn, but it has sand on the high side. Probably would be impossible. Would be havoc with rain too.
 
You know what would be a weird concept? An oval, but a longer turn, but it has sand on the high side. Probably would be impossible. Would be havoc with rain too.


Maybe an enlarged oval with a painted "do not cross" line. After the line would be considered a runoff area.

Lets draw a prototype :lol:

Well ok then, but only because you asked. :sly:
ovalwithrunoff.png


Now, what first springs to mind is my complete lack of drawing skills and also my lack of any kind of image editing software greater than paint. I based my concept around Indianapolis as it was easier to draw. The outer lane would serve as a run off/slowing down/speeding up lane only.
 
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You know what would be a weird concept? An oval, but a longer turn, but it has sand on the high side. Probably would be impossible. Would be havoc with rain too.
The only way that would be possible would be if the circuit was flat, or had a concave shape. If you had a conventional oval with sand on the high side, all that you will achieve is a sandy track surface as gravity takes effect.

Besides, tarmac run-off would be better-suited to ovals than sand. If a car hits sand at an angle, it is more likely to flip than if it hits tarmac because it digs in, but its momentum carries it over.
 
Mind = Blown

But they fit better racing on low-banked ovals like Indy IMO.

I agree, although it is awesome to see them flat-out on a banked oval... despite the potential consequences.

It's a shame that they don't come to Phoenix anymore as that was a track that was built with Indy racing in mind! Low banks and varying turns is challenging. It's also rated as one of the best tracks on the NASCAR circuit and the NASCAR drivers love it here!
 
Very clever^
The problem with a concave shape is the roll over the surface - it would be very easy to launch a car into the air if the angle between the low banking and the flat lane on the high side was all wrong. At the very least, you would need some kind of ground effect.

The other alternative is for negative camber, with the high side of the banking on the inside of the corner, which would easily allow for run-off on the outside. But negative camber would no doubt present its own challenges, and would probably do a lot of damage to the tyres and suspension - especially in a series like Indycar, where the corners would be constant-radius and almost always taken at full speed.
 
Motor racing does not equal death. I refuse to watch a sport if death is at all likely (note: I say likely, not possible..death is nearly always possible). Oval racing with open cockpit cars is always going to be more immediately dangerous than on a race circuit, street track or "road course". Yes, the type of oval for Wheldon contributed greatly along with several other factors. But even so, similar factors affect all oval racing - the fact that cars generally come back across the traffic after crashing has always been my main concern. On a race circuit, making a mistake in a corner leads to a gravel trap or a run-off area. And at a street circuit the speeds are usually quite low that even if the cars come back across the track, the accidents are much less likely to be fatal (though places like Macau can be a little crazy) as well as giving more time for drivers to react.

There are a number of other factors in oval racing that I don't like with open cockpit cars but basically its the much higher potential for a nasty accident. It is that that dissuades me, just as it does with MotoGP. As I said, Wheldon's accident has only pushed me into actually deciding not to watch anymore, before that I was on the fence.

There is no reason why I should choose to accept death as part of the sport or a possiblity of the sport. I don't tune in to watch the drivers/riders almost risk death or defy death. I tune in to watch some good racing action, at the limit of their cars but with adequate safety.

I'm not sure I can ever really trust oval racing to be safe enough for Indycars. Maybe I'll come back to it in a few years.
For now I will probably stick to watching the road courses, fortunately the calendar is full of them this year.

I agree with you

Racing to me is not about the danger or risk of injury or death. Crashes and accidents to me are fine because they show how close the drivers are to the edge, and crashing is a punishment for crossing the edge. I wouldnt want race courses to have 1000 feet of pavement around every turn so you can make huge mistakes and get away with it.

At the same time these crashes do not have to be terrifying nor should they risk a driver's life or health.

Think of the high speed American ovals as Monaco. Monaco wouldnt likely be allowed on the Formula 1 circuit today because of safety issues. Likewise, Indianapolis would never be created again today because of safety and speed concerns. Daytona or Talladega would not be designed and built today. As Mark Martin said, the cars have simply outgrown the enormous ovals.

30 years ago NASCAR stock cars were running 220 mph at Daytona. Almost 20 years ago Indycars were running 240mph laps at Indianapolis.

The cars have been slowed down from those speeds, but with modern advancements in downforce and tires cornering speeds have increased and so has the ability to race closer and side by side.

As has been mentioned many times before, the problem with Indycars on ovals is the the type of ovals and the cars themselves. In an attempt to gain NASCAR fans Indycars began running on high banked NASCAR ovals that produced wheel to wheel NASCAR style racing. The only problem is that is extremely dangerous in openwheel cars.

Dan Wheldon's crash wasn't bad luck. It wasnt the case of wrong place at the wrong time. It wasn't a "perfect storm".

It was playing with fire until you got burnt.

Indycar has taken the first step as they have gotten rid of the highbanked NASCAR ovals from the schedule. Well, except for Texas. Texas is an example of putting $ above driver, marshall, and fan safety.

The next step is to produce a car that cannot take ovals flat out, that requires alot of lifting.

Formula 1 is criticized alot for cars that have trouble racing close to each other. But in reality that is big in terms of increasing safety.

The indycars should be able to get close and pass, but lap after lap of side by side racing or nose to tail should be impossible.

Basically that means the cars need more horsepower, and less downforce.

Oval racing, even openwheel oval racing, can be safe to the point where you dont have to constantly worry about airborne cars and other horrendous accidents. Just follow what CART did in the 90s

It was Indycar going after NASCAR's fans and popularity that sparked these high speed airborne crashes. If you think about it CART never had anywhere near the amount of spectacular crashes Indycar has had. Just copy thier Formula
 
But his head ended up hitting a pole on the catch fence, he could've been okay if he didn't I think.
 
But his head ended up hitting a pole on the catch fence, he could've been okay if he didn't I think.

Yes, this is true, Kenny Brack, Ryan Briscoe and others have had similar accidents but survived because the cockpit hit the catchfence the right way

But how come I've never seen an openwheel car from a CART oval race go into the catch fence but I've seen it plenty of times in Indcyar?

Because Indycar's openwheel oval racing Formula is far more dangerous then CART's was

To use a russian roulette analogy, CART's gun had 1 bullet in the chamber, Indycar has 4 bullets in the chamber.

If the Las Vegas race was run by CART spec, the cars would have never been bunched that close which would have vastly improved Wheldon's chances of not going airborne to begin with. The cars would be more spread out, and single file giving each driver a chance to maneuver through the crash without worrying about cars being on his inside or outside
 
Good they have the back wheel covers, but can't the front wheels also lock up? At least they have a solution the problem.
 
Yes, the front wheels can lock up, but I'm not really seeing how that would be a problem. If the driver locks up and spears into the barrier, he or she will be protected by the safety cell.
 
While I agree with the side pods for oval safety, it is clear that Indy Car is headed in a road course direction. Having an open wheel car with side pods designed to take away from the interlocking of the wheels is just stupid once they are on the road courses.
 
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