- 2,827
- Curitiba
God, I don't know what is more depressing, they leaving just like that or doing it for the sake of that F-E nonsense.
2017 General WEC/ELMS/AsLMS Discussion ThreadSports Cars
- Thread starter IforceV8
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- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
They race with a GT3, a Lexus GT3. Just like nearly every other major manufacturer in the world. And there are customers of the car already with Super GT's GT300 class.Yet, they race a series with terribly inefficient V8's.
I don't think they would join DPi with the Toyota brand for that very reason, but I could see them doing it with the Lexus brand if the GT3 program sinks and they still want some sports car presence.
- 24,608
- Anoka, MN
Tired Tyres
Premium
- 12,259
- West Yorkshire
- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
They are doing it because of Dieselgate. According to Radio Le Mans earlier this week VAG fines and so on are running somewhere between 50-60 million Euro. That's 25% of the Stock market worth of the whole company.
- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
- 5,829
- Dublin
- Paul2007
Am I correct in thinking that the next generation Formula E batteries are being designed and manufactured by McLaren Advanced Technologies? How much can a car company other than McLaren learn from that then? Is it pure marketing then?
- 271
- India
- dingodile_r89
- 6,732
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Dont go gettin all logical now, it ruins the headlines.
- 567
- S. Shields
I was thinking the same. I think I will give Sportscar's a miss for a bit and go to GT's. The Blancpain GT Series is great and the British GT Championship is worth a watch. Plus there is loads of one-make GT Championships.
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- dingodile_r89
I honestly might watch it for GTE Pro. I want to see how BMW get along.
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Not sure why some are surprised Porsche just up and left. They're still suffering from VAG fines, and were on the chopping block. Also a look at Porsche's history is enough to show that this wasn't going to be a long stay. It was just a matter of when and we got the when. Now the move to FE while shutting down their LMP program is strange, but only because we're talking about a series with hardly any development yet and specifically done for PR at the moment.
I was thrown back more by Mercedes doing this move while shutting down the DTM program.
I was thrown back more by Mercedes doing this move while shutting down the DTM program.
- 5,829
- Dublin
- Paul2007
I cannot understand people saying they may give Le Mans a miss in 2018 now that Porsche has gone. We will have a revitalised LMP1-L class with several new cars and the most amazing GTEPro line-up we have ever seen with BMW joining and a new Aston Martin car.
For me, LMP1-H is my favourite class of a wonderful championship not the only class. LMP1-H won't be the same next year of course, but knowing what I do of how it may shape up, it will still be part of what is my favourite motorsport series.
For me, LMP1-H is my favourite class of a wonderful championship not the only class. LMP1-H won't be the same next year of course, but knowing what I do of how it may shape up, it will still be part of what is my favourite motorsport series.
- 1,392
- Satellite of Love
- flip157
Well, a revitalized LMP1-L class is the hope. It's easy for me to say this behind a keyboard, but I feel it's down to the ACO to make that category attractive to teams and manufacturers, chassis builders and engine suppliers alike. We're being promised cars, but haven't seen anything in the flesh yet.
Like you, I don't think P1 is dead as of yet. What I think it could be the beginning of the end of the LMP1-H era. Unless something radically different is done to drive running costs down. The tech is great, the cars are amazing, but it's apparent that not a lot of manufacturers want to spend an F1 budget on something that doesn't have the same levels of fan base and exposure as F1.
I think there's hope for the class, but it's up to the powers at be. This was a little before my time as a big endurance fan, but I do believe there was a time not too long ago when Audi was the only factory prototype team at Le Mans (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.) If the ACO can get LMP1 worked out (and I mean the entire category), I can see Toyota hanging on for a little while longer. Granted, we're in different times, and the hybrid cars mean that LMP1-L cars can't win at all, but this is all on the ACO now.
LMP2 seems to be strong against all odds, and GTE is picking up new cars, both of which are great. In reality, that's over half the field. P1 is the next hurdle, and it's coming sooner than I think everyone expected.
- 567
- S. Shields
There is some good points made against giving the WEC a miss for a bit or looking elsewhere in the WEC for the action. I admit I do like the LMP2. I think it is packed full of good teams like Signatech Alpine and good drivers. The action is always close. And I can supplement my love for GT (British GT and Blancpain and possibly GT Open) with the GTE-Pro and GTE-Am class. Just because the LMP1 is low on numbers does not make the WEC any worse. And getting into the LMP2 class I think will push up the numbers watching the ELMS.
And of course Ginetta will be making a chassis for what, reading between the lines, is a Manor LMP1 team as well as ARC Bratislava and PRT Racing among others. And I am sure I heard some talk that Peugeot may be coming back.
And of course Ginetta will be making a chassis for what, reading between the lines, is a Manor LMP1 team as well as ARC Bratislava and PRT Racing among others. And I am sure I heard some talk that Peugeot may be coming back.
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- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
This is a good situation imo. It looks like the big spenders are gone and that means Toyota can lower their costs and keep the car development at a reasonable pace. This without having to go crazy because the others spending twice as much are no longer there. So that means they can have private competition come in and drop them a bit of help like more fuel (flow/tank size) and power.
- 567
- S. Shields
Even keeping development costs high, even as the only fully factory LMP1-H car in the class, I would still question whether they can be the top dog in LMP1. We could see in 2018 one of the lowest finishing positions and slowest times for a winning LMP1 car if they do win Le Mans. Way behind the times set by Audi and Porsche. I think they will finish ahead still of whichever teams will be using the new Ginetta chassis and ByKolles but the gap won't be streets ahead like it has been between the two German factories and the rest. We have seen how reliable Toyota have been. When they have had golden opportunities to win they have blown it either by some fault or crashing out. Whether they can be top dog in LMP1 having cut costs due to a lack of main rivals is questionable when they can't be top dog spending a lot.
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What? TMG have been more or less level with "the germans" in their time in LMP1-H and far far ahead of anyone else, including the competent Rebellion team. Why would you expect something different now?
"Lowest finishing position" means what? Not 1st? You expect an LMP2 to win LM next year? This doesn't make much sense.
Right, because the winning Porsche was a massive 1 lap ahead of the lead LMP2 car this year.
They've been roughly as reliable at LM as Audi and Porsche, just with worse timing really.
If it's questionable that Toyota will be top dog, please state who can reasonably supplant them.
- 9,053
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
- 567
- S. Shields
All I meant was given how strong and reliable Toyota have been with lots of money I doubt less money would make them more competitive. I doubt even with the lack of competition Toyota could win Le Mans.
LMP2 cannot win Le Mans. They can't win any WEC race. Even I know that. Even say down in 4th Toyota would still win LMP1 as 4th is the highest finishing position for an LMP1 team. The top 3 would only win LMP2. They would not win outright.
I am a proper fan of the WEC. I just try to enjoy. I don't look at the books. I try not to analyse every aspect of the technical side in detail like a lot of GTP members.
I had to look up "supplant" to find out what it means. As far as a replacement team goes there of course will be few if any. Though Peugeot is rumoured to be wanting a return. Toyota Gazoo of course will be the biggest team in the LMP1 grid for some time yet till a factory team will come along who can unseat them. But I question whether they will dominate as much as Porsche or Audi. Sure they may win more races but I don't know if we will see similar times to those set by Porsche or Audi. I think also we could still see one of the Toyota's get a DNF.
Toyota only won Fuji last year out of all the races. Why aren't they doing better if they aren't that bad?
Look. I try to at least sound as intelligent and as much of an 'expert' as I can. I try to form comments that make me come over like I am brainy. If it makes me sound like I am a brainy expert then so what it if is rubbish. But it ain't easy when I hear so many on GTPlanet come out with the topics they talk about. I can trawl any post and come up with a perfect example of what I am talking about.
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Look, I'm not trying to get on you too much here, but you're saying some outlandish or unclear statements:
And lap times? Toyota hold the LMP1 lap records at Silverstone, Spa and Le Mans; I think they'll be fine on that front. And even if they take a step back, I doubt they'll care about not setting new records if they're taking first place every time out.
What? Without competition, Toyota will win Le Mans.
No, an LMP2 can win Le Mans. Any car that starts the race, besides garage 56, is eligible to win overall.
They will win more races. You seem to greatly underestimate the gulf in class between factories and privateers in categories like LMP1. Toyota will win every race they enter, bar the odd crazy occurrence (which could happen once or even twice, but don't count on it). If you removed Porsche and Audi from last year's results, Rebellion would have won Spa, but Toyota would have won every other race by at least 9 laps. That's the kind of domination you can expect next year (or worse, as without a credible rival for pace, Toyota will be investing more of their focus and effort into reliability).
And lap times? Toyota hold the LMP1 lap records at Silverstone, Spa and Le Mans; I think they'll be fine on that front. And even if they take a step back, I doubt they'll care about not setting new records if they're taking first place every time out.
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- catamount39
Joest agrees that hybrid is overkill for budgets.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/juttner-costs-for-lmp1-hybrid-is-overkill/
Annual budgets for Porsche and Audi were reportedly over $200 million annually.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/juttner-costs-for-lmp1-hybrid-is-overkill/
Annual budgets for Porsche and Audi were reportedly over $200 million annually.
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How did this not make the 1st paragraph? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#ConsequencesJoest agrees that hybrid is overkill for budgets.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/juttner-costs-for-lmp1-hybrid-is-overkill/
Annual budgets for Porsche and Audi was reportedly over $200 million annually.
SAD!
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- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
At this point, who doesn't know that already.
Pretty sure that cost for any manufacturer without the Diesel gate slapped on them is still overkill, which is the point being made. Hell even without Diesel gate speeding it up, Audi would've still withdrawn and so would Porsche considering they might as well compete in F1 with the budget they were spending (and who knows how much more ). There's a reason Peugeot, the French manufacturer the ACO so badly want to bring back. hasn't done so.
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They both quit and yet took the time to develop a new car for the next year that they werent competing in. This decision was all about the bottom line and shifting the focus away from the evil combustion engine and into the future of "green" and the PR value that can bring.
Nobody forced them to spend $200 mil a year, they did that on their own.
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- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
Which is funny because not only do people hate FE (for no other reason then aesthetics), but guess what goes to making batteries for electric cars? Might as well call the entire electric movement hypocritical if anyone thinks it'll save the planet.
Which isn't what I was saying. Yeah no one forced them to start making these LMP1 Hybrids, but I also don't think ANYONE asked for the ACO to make a formula that made the budget creep up more and more.
- 9,554
- Vermont
- catamount39
Aesthetically its fine, its the bloody gimmicks and lack of excitement electric cars general have that hurt Formula E but that's a whole other debate. And yes anybody who thinks batteries are green needs their head checked.
Jumping ship from the WEC is completely unrelated to going to FE. The budget in FE for a whole season is probably what they spend in the WEC for half a race. The budget needs to be capped in LMP1 for hybrids, or just drop it all together. The cost is ludicrous. It's another Group C/90's GT1 moment of an essentially open reg class killing itself because the strive to get faster.
- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
Renault is said to spend 8 million euros, or about $9.5 million in F-E from a couple websites I read. That's about 7% of a $150 million budget they are rumored to have in the WEC.
The costs are high because that's what it takes/took to compete with the big spending VAG teams. Toyota was caught off guard in 2015 by that. When Porsche joined in and Audi saw that, I assume both the teams were given hundreds of millions to beat each other. Toyota had to speed up their introduction of the turbo engine by a whole year in 2016 or get left behind like 2015. Yes, it's no wonder no one wants to enter when one auto manufacturer spends at will to win with two separate teams.
Anyway, check this site out, has some vids of the M8 GTE testing http://www.fanswec.org/la-nouvelle-bmw-m8-gte-poursuit-ses-essais-a-barcelone/
The costs are high because that's what it takes/took to compete with the big spending VAG teams. Toyota was caught off guard in 2015 by that. When Porsche joined in and Audi saw that, I assume both the teams were given hundreds of millions to beat each other. Toyota had to speed up their introduction of the turbo engine by a whole year in 2016 or get left behind like 2015. Yes, it's no wonder no one wants to enter when one auto manufacturer spends at will to win with two separate teams.
Anyway, check this site out, has some vids of the M8 GTE testing http://www.fanswec.org/la-nouvelle-bmw-m8-gte-poursuit-ses-essais-a-barcelone/
