60/60/60 is fully locked, data logger evidence inside - also full LSD explanation.

Discussion in 'GT6 Drifting' started by FussyFez, Apr 15, 2014.

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  1. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    Evening all.

    So, over the time I have spent here at GTPlanet, it has become apparent that many members here in the drifting community seem to think that the equivalent to a fully locked or 'welded' diff is 5/60/60 (inital/accell/braking).

    I have always believed however, that 60/60/60 is fully locked.

    I just took a Nismo 270R around Tsukuba. First with a 60/60/60 diff, then with a 5/60/60.

    I then loaded these two replays into the data logger, and scrutinised the rear wheel speeds throughout the Lap.

    At no point did the 60/60/60 show any difference in rear wheel speeds.

    The 5/60/60 showed up to 2mph difference in speed, on numerous occasions exiting bends.


    Blue =60/60/60
    Pink =5/60/60

    IMAG2177.jpg


    Try it yourself if you don't believe me.


    If you want to run the equivalent of a locked 'welded' diff, run 60/60/60.


    Have a good night :cheers::gtpflag:


    (love the data logger btw!)




    Edit


    This thread has some great info in it.

    Here's a couple of bits from @Ridox2JZGTE and @ITSHAM. Thanks alot for the contributions guys.

     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
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  2. Streeto

    Streeto

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    Interesting, I would like to see what @TwinturboCH says about this if he's still around.

    I've been enjoying the advantages of 1.5way LSD's recently though.
     
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  3. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    Yeah, he's one of the first guys I thought of when I saw the data.

    I've never got on with 1.5 ways (for drifting) , always end up with huge snap back on big entries when combined with my understeery setups.
     
  4. Gonales

    Gonales

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    Coincidentally we agree on something again. <Has been using 1.5 way for a couple of months now. :D

    Edit: Cant really tell on whole laps, and picking one, or two examples. Should find a clearer way to measure it imo. :s
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  5. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    That's why I run 60/60/55 in Nascar rooms! Figured that out in GT5.
     
  6. Stavingo

    Stavingo

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    Because of speed gain upon exiting?

    Way to use the data logger by the way :tup: Gonna be interesting to see how the data logger will be used for drifting in the future.
     
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  7. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Yes correct and also speed gained in acceleration at the start of the race.I don't use that for my Nurb set-up,not really good on road course.
     
  8. JR86

    JR86 Premium

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    I had a quick go when the game came out with 5-60-60 and 60-60-60 but couldn't tell properly what was what since I hadn't fully re learnt to drift. I've been suspicious that it may not be fully locked because my 86 sometimes only spins one tyre.
     
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  9. Biller

    Biller

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    I'd like to thank you for all you do for the drift community really appreciated:) keep going bud!
     
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  10. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the general consensus, going back to GT5, been that 5/60/60 is a 2 way limited slip diff (with the 60/60 simply being the most aggressive lock available in the game), 5/60/30 is a 1.5 way diff, and 60/60/60 is the closest we can get to a welded diff?

    I know back in GT5, a few of us Nemesis guys, and a few others I know of, were building missile cars, specifically with 60/60/60 diffs, to mimic a real welded diff...and then building the rest of the tune around that. I know lots of people were probably doing this, just a small group that I personally knew of though.

    Not disputing your results, @FussyFez. But I thought this was what we had sort of decided on a while ago. It's good that the data logger can actually confirm this though, as everything was based off "feel" before
     
  11. ITSHAM

    ITSHAM (Banned)

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    Its funny I seen this after just a moment ago I was running an N/A AE86 full lock and was loving it considering I changed my tune around the diff Instead of my diff around the tune if you get what im trying to say here..full lock feels great and tuning around it was a lot simpler. :D

    P.s I usually use open diff but for faster drifts.
     
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  12. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    I'm glad that you were using it correctly, but I feel there are a few that were mistaken.


    TTCH wrote a drift setup guide for gt5, and within this guide, he states that 5/60/60 is locked/welded.

    It seems that this information has been carried over.

    I personally have seen 5/60/60 referred to as a locked 'welded' diff, many times here at GTP.


    I've always believed that 5/60/60 10/30/30 30/20/20 etc are all 2 ways, just with different characteristics..

    5/60/30 10/40/20 50/50/25 all 1.5ways with Different characteristics.

    I'm sure there are a good few guys here that have no problem with the diff, but I just wanted to clear things up a little for everyone else.


    Can really tell on whole laps?

    What?


    What clearer way to measure would you like?

    Can't get much clearer than a data logger test.



    May I also point out, that the standard 10/40/20 diff is a 1.5 way, and I'm sure I've read you say that a stock diff should never be drifted.

    These results are not up for debate, atleast without some evidence proving otherwise.
     
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  13. ITSHAM

    ITSHAM (Banned)

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    Hmm a few nissans have a 50/80/0 diff as a stock setup. I actually like it over full lock.
     
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  14. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    I mean the stock adjustable lsd settings.
     
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  15. Bo

    Bo Premium

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    I've built up a few different drift cars recently. I might do comparisons in wheel speed from the 50/80/0 to the 60/60/60 LSD.
     
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  16. MadFlavour

    MadFlavour (Banned)

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    @FussyFez done so much for the community, great job!
     
  17. Streeto

    Streeto

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    I've always been curious about this, does anybody know if it would still be a 1.5way if it locks up stronger under deceleration rather than acceleration?

    For instance I use 15 40 60 on some of my cars...

    My instinct says yes but every description of a 1.5way talks about how it locks up more under accel. instead.
     
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  18. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    As far as I'm aware,

    Anything with the accell and braking the same = 2 way

    Anything with accell double the braking = 1.5 way

    Anything that only engages in accell, with braking at minimum = 1 way.


    When it come to backwards, I'm only guessing, but maybe something like 10/20/40 might be a -1.5 way?

    I think these sort of diffs are rare in real life, you would have to get the diff rebuilt with custom settings maybe?

    I think @Ridox2JZGTE might be able to clear that up, as he seems rather knowledgeable about such things.
     
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  19. Gonales

    Gonales

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    He states that 5-60-60 is a 2 way differential, and 60-60-60 would be a welded differential. (Or, as close as possible to these, with GT6 parameters).

    You have, but not everybody was right. There is a difference in a 2-way, or a welded diff, ( as far as I remember it has something to do with being able to regain grip by using the clutch in a 2 way, which isnt possible in a welded diff)

    ^ Wrong. 5-60-30 is a 1.5 way, 10-40-20 is a standard diff, and 50-50-25 is close to being a welded diff, although Im not even sure if you can have a welded 1.5 irl.

    Than, please make sure you are correct.

    Ofcourse not. I will try this out myself when I get the time, but doing full laps... You will never post the same lap twice, with different diffs.

    Not a complete lap. One, easy corner that you do the same way every single time.

    Yes, they are. A 10-40-20 is NOT a 1.5way, a standard diff in a road car won't be a drifting differential mate.

    1.5 way means full lock under accel, half lock during decel. So, no.
     
  20. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    Prove it.
     
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  21. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    For LSD, the initial torque has nothing to do with differentiating 1 way, 1.5 way or 2 way.

    1 way = LSD only work in acceleration, in GT6, braking can only go as low as 5, so a true 1 way is not possible. CUSCO 1 way 55/0

    1.5 way = LSD works on both acceleration and braking, but the braking/coasting is less effective than acceleration, doesn't have to be half of it, NISMO GT LSD 1.5 way has 45/1 cam angle, while CUSCO on one of the model has 55/20 and Tomei LSD has 60/40 cam angle for 1.5 way.

    2 way = LSD works on both acceleration and braking, usually both are the same in effectiveness, but there are LSD in 2 way with less braking. NISMO GT LSD and GT Pro 2 way has 55/45 cam angle, while NISMO GT TT has 45/45 cam angle.

    The initial torque decides how early/late or when the LSD will activate ( the spring ), while accel and braking value adjust how much lock and how quick they will lock ( sort of a combination of cam / ramp angle - how quick/reaction time, number of plates + diameter - how much pressure/lock )
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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  22. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    Beautiful, Thankyou very much for clearing up our confusion. :cheers:




    See the above post from @Ridox2JZGTE for an excellent example of a constructive and informative post with factual content. Not opinions.

    I made this thread to clear up any confusion.


    I thought I made it clear, that I was giving in game data logger clarification, on a subject that I had noticed to be an issue.


    What's with the argumentative nature all the time?




    I must apologise to @TwinturboCH as I found this.

    I have read it enough to want to investigate further, so I posted my findings.

    All I see in your post('s) is opinions backed up with naff all, and passive aggressive confrontational behaviour. :tdown:



    Edit

    Also, have you even used the data logger yet?

    You can only load fastest laps.

    You must complete the lap.

    If you can't run a few consistent laps at tsukuba, I suggest you try SRF.

    If you have used the data logger, you will know that you can pause, and view any part of the lap, either in real time, or matching track position to give comparable results.

    It's an excellent tool for learning what is actually going on, rather than speculating in such a way that misleads others.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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  23. Streeto

    Streeto

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    Dom you're failing to realise that the 10 40 20 diff that you get is an aftermarket L.S.D, not a "standard" diff. In this case it's obviously a 1.5-way, by definition.

    The "standard" diff is there on most cars before buying the custom diff, often in the state of a 1-way (usually 50 80 0).

    I've also seen some cars come with 1.5-ways as standard, usually sports cars (e.g. 7 30 15)...

    If the car doesnt come with a diff at all (usually old cars) it will display 0 0 0, unless you buy the custom 1.5-way.

    Basically when you buy the custom L.S.D, you get given a 1.5-way, which you can change to a 2-way or welded.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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  24. Serum

    Serum

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    Why set initial to 60, if initial tq is the amount of power/tq/whatever necessary to lock the diff?

    Seems to me that number should be 5, considering a welded is always locked.
     
  25. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Initial torque or preload forces all driven wheels to rotate at the same speed even if there's no wheel spins or torque applied on the LSD. Initial torque decides how responsive is the LSD and how the car behaves in corners, most race cars or high powered cars uses high initial torque, but there' a limit where the preload will overcome the tires traction and do not allow them to rotate at differing speeds. So basically more/higher initial torque stabilize the car, reduces the chances of wheel spin under braking and acceleration, and gives more understeer. This is similar to GT6, where higher initial torque will give less drastic changes in car behavior, more stable/tigher and prone to understeer. Running car with low initial torque will make the car more loose, which is why most street car with LSD has low initial torque. The high value of initial on some stock LSD in GT6 is to simulate viscous LSD or torsen LSD in some cases ( those 50/80/0 - this seems to work differently to custom LSD )

    When setting up initial torque, take consideration on locking rate of the acceleration and brake, I have been running medium to high initial torque/preload and quite high locking on accel and brake with great success - mostly on race cars and replicas :) Hope this clear things up more @FussyFez
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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  26. ITSHAM

    ITSHAM (Banned)

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    LSD - mechanism, function, & benefit
    LSD and open differential LSD is an acronym for Limited Slip Differential. It is a gear mechanism which limits the rotational difference of the out-put shafts.

    An “Open Differential” (as compared with LSD) allows the transfers of power to the wheel/s which are experiencing the least amount of resistance. This enables a car’s wheels with the least resistance to run at different speeds in a turn. As an example, when cornering, the inner wheel travels a shorter distance than the outer wheel. With an “Open Differential” you will experience easier handling during a turn. However, an “Open Differential” may not necessarily produce the best results for Racing, Drifting, and other Performance Driving. Why does LSD improve your driving performance? When cornering in competition or a racing situation, you will frequently experience body roll where one wheel of the car is lifted from the ground. This will cause the “Open Differential” to transfer all the torque to the wheel lifted rather than to the wheel that is on the ground. The results are a useless “wheel spin” where as the car loses its forward momentum. In order to eliminate the “spin”, your LSD will transfer the torque to both wheels which consequently improve your lapping time. The benefit of a performance LSD is quite obvious in the autocross or in a road race with many tight corners, but the benefit is not limited to those situations.

    In Drifting, an “Open Differential” makes it very difficult to control vehicle’s slide with throttle actuation. LSD will allow the driver to steer the car with the throttle, allowing larger, more dramatic slide with plenty of forward movement.

    In Drag Racing, the impact of an LSD is less dramatic. However, during sudden high-power starts and while up-shifting during acceleration, it is possible that either the left or the right tire can frequently slip. A performance LSD will quickly detect that condition and lock the differential so that you do not lose any time. Not even a few tenths of a second is wasted!

    Types of LSD There are several types of LSDs.

    Viscous type
    By utilizing the torque generated from your oil viscosity, a “Viscous Type” LSD activates through viscous coupling that are sensitive to the rotational differences. Example – the Nissan 350Z is quipped with a Viscous Type LSD.

    Helical type A Helical Type LSD has internal helical gears which produces friction resistance and activates itself depending on the input torque value. The maintenance is almost free for the life of the car. Example – stock LSD for Honda S2000.

    Torque sensitive type Similar to a Helical Type LSD, a Torque Sensitive LSD uses friction resistance from the internal gears. The effectiveness varies depending on the torque input. Generally a Torque Sensitive LSD requires a large amount of torque input whereas a small value of torque does not have much impact on the LSD’s activation. Example – stock LSD for Mazda RX8.

    Above mentioned LSDs are frequently chosen by many car manufacturers due to the advantage on easy maintenance and very little noise levels. However, when it comes down to the high-performance driving, professional drivers will always choose a Clutch Type (also called as a mechanical type).Clutch type (All ATS LSDs are clutch type)
    A Clutch Type LSD has several (4 to 24) internal clutch plates. The LSD is activated by pressuring the clutch plates which will produce a very strong locking performance and superior response during performance driving.

    [​IMG]

    In general, a Clutch Type LSD has pressure rings and friction plates inside the differential case. The LSD acts like as a standard differential when a car is moving straight or the rotational difference between left and right wheels are similar. Once there is a rotational difference among wheels, the cross axis which is set in the middle will press the pressure rings, then the pressure rings will transfer the movement to the clutch plates. When all the clutch plates are engaged, both wheels are locked and the torque is transferred equally to both wheels.

    LSD activation mechanism - 1 way, 1.5 way, & 2 way
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    1 way

    An LSD is activated only when the throttle is on and when the internal cam rings has an angle on only one side. 1.5 way

    The angle of the cam rings for the off-side is very close to 5-20 degrees which will make the LSD ineffective when the throttle is off (during deceleration). The ATS 1.5-Way LSD will work similar to 1-Way LSD during deceleration2 way

    The 2-Way cam rings angle are cut in the same degree on both sides (throttle on and throttle off sides). A 2-Way LSD will activate during both acceleration and deceleration. 2 way is a popular choice for drifting.
    Initial torque & cam angle The initial torque (break away torque) is a pre-load torque on a LSD. Up to that torque load, the LSD locks the differential even without any rotational difference between the wheels. The initial torque and the cam angle on the cam rings determine the responsiveness of the LSD on the driver's steering and throttle inputs. The higher the initial torque and the higher the cam angle, the more responsive an LSD becomes. However, too much initial torque makes a vehicle extremely hard to turn and very high cam angle affect the vehicle's smoothness. A good performance LSD achieves an excellent balance of those two important factors.

    Is a clutch type LSD noisy?? The concept that a clutch type LSD chatters and very noisy is out of date. ATS carbon LSD surprised many people with that quietness and effectiveness. This year (2009), ATS introduced super silent LSD which is a metal LSD but it does not chatter.

    Diameter and the number of internal discs & lock ratio (added in Feb 2011) As in a performance clutch, the diameter of and the number of the disc inside the LSD case determine the absolute torque delivery capacity. The bigger the disc and the more discs are used internally, the larger the absolute locking power becomes.

    By rearranging the internal discs, it is possible to reduce the maximum locking capacity of an LSD. For example, in the case of standard ATS metal LSD with 16 discs, the internal discs are arranged by A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-Cam Ring-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A. (where A is a disc with outside edge and B is a disc with inside edge). If you change the order to A-A-B-B-A-B-A-B-Cam Ring-B-A-B-A-B-B-A-A, the effective disc number have been changed from 16 to 12, which is a 25 % reduction. Consequently, the maximum locking capacity is reduced by 25 %.

    Please note that reducing the maximum capacity by 25 % does not automatically mean the locking ratio is also reduced by 25 % . The locking ratio is determined by the engine output, the tire characteristics, the suspension set up, the radius of a corner, and the road surface condition. It is possible that even with the reduced maximum capacity, the LSD still locks 100 %. It is ATS's current position that it is difficult to set a specific locking ratio like 80 % lock or 50 % lock for an LSD since the locking ratio is dynamic not static determined by the factors mentioned here.






    Hope this helps...
     
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  27. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Similar to my explanation above, higher initial torque = harder to turn/understeer = same as in GT6, so @FussyFez, another confirmation, this time from ATS LSD manufacturer article, Cusco will say the same thing :D
     
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  28. Gonales

    Gonales

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    I can tell you one thing mate. I told you what TTCH said in his earlier posts and private messages about diffs.

    If you think I'm only giving opinions, and Ridox is not... There is not difference. He has no proof of what he said.

    So, the only difference in the posts is the way you read them.
     
  29. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    Thankyou very much @Ridox2JZGTE and @ITSHAM

    Great explanations.

    I'm no LSD expert, I have learnt a lot from the above posts.

    Just shows how great it is to be part of such a helpful and friendly community. :cheers::gtpflag:
     
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  30. FussyFez

    FussyFez

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    I respect his opinion more than yours, because he has a respectable manner, a very successful replica garage (replicating real life tuner cars, using real data.... This takes some knowledge of real world tuning products and techniques)

    I've never personally seen anything from you to suggest I should believe you.

    Regarding TTCH, I am pretty sure I read a post of his saying what I originally stated, but then went onto do a little research, and found evidence to the contrary.

    I then apologised to him.

    Ridox's explanation correlates with other (legitimate) sources, and ITSHAM ' s excellent contribution.

    If you already knew 60/60/60 was locked, then good for you.

    Others may have been convinced otherwise.


    Ninja edit

    Sorry for double post
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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