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Discussion in 'GT6 Drifting' started by FussyFez, Apr 15, 2014.
And by the way, the data logger evidence doesn't prove anything unless you use the clutch
Put it this way, whether you are on or off the throttle the diff is under load and so it will be locked. The only way to test the theory is at VERY low speed turning on full lock and at very low throttle. I might actually have a go at this as I've seen evidence for both points of view and it is kind of annoying that I can't work out 100% which is which.
100% true. Lifting off, solely by itself, does not increase drift angle. Definitely not mid drift.
Lift off oversteer, is generally most pronounced in high speed entries with lots of lateral grip.
No, NOT what you described.
Because he is the FIRST that correctly mentions steering. All of you didn't,
Don't make assumptions. That's where you're wrong. There is right, and wrong.
Yes, it's really broad, and generic, and correct in about 70% of the occasions. You mention one thing, where it could be (not necessarily will be applicable), and even your mentioning wasn't 100% spot on.
Im sorry if it annoys you. I do have one solution: You don't want to read them? Don't read them! Simple :/
Oh, I think you're an idiot, and I want to make you look like an idiot... But no hard feelings right?
(Just saying that, not meaning it, but showing you how empty that 'no hard feelings' statement is.
Just asking, because I'm not sure myself since English isn't my first language. I assumed (which is wrong, I know), that the expression was 'hear, hear'. Or am I mistaken there?
I knew the data provided was shoddy, (no offence Fuzzy), but I assumed it was because of other reasons. (Like the ones I stated before). I didn't know how to prove it though.
But, I'm very keen on the new results you will post. I've been using both 5 60 30 and 60 60 30 quite well. 60 60 30 feels a little better although it might be a placebo effect or me getting more used to the game.
It really does, you know, particularly in a car with a rear-biased centre of mass... and its about weight transfer, which is exaggerated in GT6 because of the nerfed tyre physics and bizarre inertia effect. Since this is the foundation of everything else you've had to say, I suggest you take some time out to test the theory before you make yourself look any more ignorant. I'm saying this as someone with fair skill and much experience.
As a moderator, I'm also suggesting you take a step back from the discussion and calm down.
I'm also suggesting the same to every protagonist. Any more border-line personal attacks will be swiftly dealt with.
I'm saying this as a person with very likely more experience drifting than you do, no offence... But how many proper drift cars have a rear weight bias? Most cars, about 70% have their weight in the front, not in the back. (Considering most decent drift cars are FR.) Another 20% are tuned or naturally built to have a 50-50 weight bias.`
And I also said: "mid drift" There is no weight shifting mid drift...
For the very small amount of cars with a rear weight bias in drifting... You might be right.
The principle is the same but more exaggerated with rear weight bias. I am not saying that drift cars have rear weight bias, I am saying that they emphasise the inertia effect. Even while you're drifting (which incidentally is a style of driving that uses the same laws of physics as any other style of driving - drifters do not live in an alternate state of reality, despite opinions to the contrary).
While you are drifting a car, the rear wheels are still producing a force in the direction the car is pointing, ie towards the front of the car. Even though the wheel-spin you induce has overcome the lateral grip of the tyre, the longitudinal force is still keeping the car balanced. Much depends on the slip-curve of the tyres you are using of course but at more extreme angles, if you reduce this force by lifting off, inertia takes over as the presiding force.
A good way to test this is grab a BMW add a ton of power, don't tune the suspension, and add a locked diff. Then go to Tsukaba and test out lift off oversteer yourself.
Looks like there is a ton of good information on this thread about lift off oversteer, too bad it isn't it's own separate thread.
@Gonales, I was attempting to reach some common ground, but I guess that is pointless
Why so defensive?
Yeah, I agree with the fact there there IS a force applied on the car... But the lateral grip of tires will nearly always push a car back to a 'normal' way of driving when you lift off. Yes, there are occasions a car over rotates when you transition too fast. But mid-drift? I disagree.
Sorry. Not sorry? lol
So you're saying you've never drifted a high speed sweeper at full throttle, lifted off, and increased your angle (using steering inputs to manage the weight transfer)??
Because you're condescending the whole time, and suddenly when somebody proves you wrong, you want to try reach common ground?`
Edit: The reason why I don't, or am not able to do the same is simple. I'm a person that goes for the maximum amount of wheelspin. Some cars, which can not reach that amount of wheelspin (and have too much forward bite), I never use. I don't like drifting like that.
This is to funny, Seems every helpful thread, "EVERY ONE OF THEM" Gets polluted with ignorance... I've learned a lot here regardless, And also realized some of these facts came into play as I was actually looking for them during my runs last night. So with that being said, Great thread, Learned a good bit, Im sure a few others have to. Despite the few misleading false comments ........
Could you give us a few examples of that so called ignorance please?
Lol the MOD asks not to make "Personal attacks" so.... CHEERS!
Agreed. Not telling what the ignorance isn't helping. I'm sure a lot of us on here are here to learn more, so pointing out any misconceptions would be beneficial.
Id love to see the same test run with a clutch.
You know this, so I'm not sure why I'm having to say it. The throttle is a throttle, it isn't a switch, at a certain percentage of throttle, at the cross over between negative load (engine braking) and positive load, you can hold a neutral throttle with the diff unloaded... It's a small sweet spot, but it's there.
I also think it's somewhat of a moot point, in that, I have shown 5/60/60 gives a difference in wheel speed, this difference is when the diff is under least load.
The 60/60/60 got exactly the same treatment in the lap, and showed exactly the same wheel speed throughout.
Therefore, I feel, you may be able to disprove that 60/60/60 is fully locked 100% of the time, but nothing can convince me 5/60/60 is locked, as I've done the tests and seen the difference in wheel speed myself.
For someone so particular about certain things, like people misspelling your name, it would be nice if you made the same effort that you expect from others.
Knew it was shoddy?
Go and do a better test, and post results. Please. I already invited anyone to do so in the OP
I'm probably wrong and it's probably hear hear, but to be honest, I couldn't care less.
Loving @Vagabond posting about lift off oversteer in a thread about diff's....
Stay on topic
I guess I'll admit I was one of the ones from GT5 who thought 5/60/60 was as close to a locked diff as possible, diff tuning has always been a thing that causes me great confusion.
I always though having the "Initial" setting at 5 meant the diff activated faster therefor being closer to a locked diff, this is how I used to tuned my track spec cars and it seemed to work? Too much outside wheel spin I would raise the Initial setting, too much inside wheel spin and I would lower the Initial setting, it seemed to work and gave me the desired results.
I just tryed out the data logger myself to test two laps of the same car (Nissan Z31) on Silverstone Stowe one with 60/60/60 the other 5/60/60 and I could not see a single difference in left/right rear wheel speed with the 60/60/60 lap, but at times I could see as much as 4mph difference between left/right rear wheel speed on the 5/60/60 lap.
I've always thought of Inital as how much its already locked (60 being 100%) without the car even being switched on.
It was definitely 5-60-60 in GT5, I'm 100% sure of that. I've been trying 60 60 30 on GT6 recently, and it could be possible that PD changed the Initial Torque setting. Making 5-60-60 in GT5, become 60-60-60 in GT6, and vice versa.
Still think that PD should have multiple diff setups in their parts shop. I'm sure drag racers also would be more interested in a locker or spool over a LSD also. And I'm sure the physics the would run wouldn't be hard to replicate to make this extra part.
If this is the case, then PD definitely swapped it, because it's not like that now, as has been previously covered.
This quote from our very own @TwinturboCH says otherwise though...
Taken from here
I've read on numerous occasions that a clutch type lsd (as provided in game) is always preferable in full on motorsport applications.
My car has a helical (torsen) type lsd, shared with the dc2 integra, the dc2 in game uses a clutch type that simulates how a torsen
Viscous diffs are popular in OEM stuff (Haldex audis and focus RS mk 1), and again, the ingame stock diffs try their best to replicate how they work in real life.
I suppose my point is that PD felt all diffs were simulate-able with the clutch type.
TTCH was correct in GT5. But back then, there wasn't as much clarity as we have now with the data logger and we dubbed a 5-60-60 lsd a 2-way, and a 60-60-60 a locked (welded) diff.
Problem with this is that even though a 5-60-60 in GT5 felt like a full on locked differential to me (considering I don't use a clutch), and I never really tried 60-60-60. Maybe I should go back for some testing but I don't care enough I guess.
Nowadays, I use 60-60-30, 99% of the time. It feels best. If it is locked or a 1.5 way, I'm not sure. The reason why I'm unsure is this:
I can't dip the clutch so I can't test this theory ingame and I would LOVE for somebody to try it.
Don't think the theory could be tested in game to be honest, the clutch simulation on most cars is still udder
As a dragger, I seldom visit the drift forums so please excuse the rather late reply. And sorry if it's a little off topic.
A locker would be fantastic, as long as it actually performed as it's supposed to.
Back when I started tuning for drag early GT5, everyone ran a 60/60/5 assuming it gave optimal performance for launch.
Once the DLC speed test became available I spent countless hours testing all aspects of my tunes and the truth was the LSD made zero difference regardless of any of the settings whilst driving in a straight line down the quarter. It was a complete waste of everyone's time and money, but at least we learnt something.
The one silly point however was this, some cars actually ran a quicker 0-60 ( and overall ET accordingly ) with the standard differential.
Read into that what you will...and I'm not sure how that relates to drifting, but I found it to be quite bizarre.
Excuse the double post. Some time has elapsed since the previous post, so hopefully the mods will let this slide without issuing me with a slap on the wrist.
A little more food for thought.....
This may or may not have any relevance to drifting, so please don't burn me if it is complete babble to you.
During drag speed testing in GT5 I also observed that some cars (not all) also gained better launch characteristics with various clutch and flywheel configurations whilst at full throttle. (normally either the standard flywheel or the twin plate clutch... and in some instances a combination of both)
This again came in the form of and increased 0-60 and overall ET respectively, but came at the cost of top end pull.
(Hopefully y'all have some experience with drag racing terminology & understand my comments with relative ease)
I'm not sure this could be considered any form of increased initial acceleration as such, but there was a noticeable difference in launch on the drag strip.
Perhaps y'all have know this all along and don't even bother to buy a triple plate clutch, i don't know.
And since the clutch/fly are a combined package in this installment of GT, things may well have changed.
But if these have remained the same as GT5, then the overall better bottom end response from the standard clutch/fly may be of some use to you guys, as I highly doubt you'd drift many corners at 150+mph and even if you did, you probably would be non the wiser in regards to a slight loss of power through the drive train.
But as I stated, I'm a drag racer, not a drifter and my comments could be a complete waste of your time.
(If it is @ FussyFez , please PM me and I'll ask a Mod the remove this post to avoid any further clutter in your thread, especially since I've gone way off topic )
No no I enjoyed both of your posts.
Your findings are definitely interesting and I'm glad you shared your thoughts.
I've found using the standard clutch /fly can cause the engine to bog down when changing through the higher gears and trying to maintain wheelspin. I tend to use a twin plate on my 'budget missile' cars and a triple on anything with over 600bhp.
I think our worlds collide in that you are looking to minimise wheel spin whilst avoiding bogging down at all, whereas we (i) are looking for traction whilst maintaining wheelspin, plus stability mid slide.
I've read that drag racers in real life tend to use locked or welded diffs, as the wheels don't need to turn at different rates, therefore negating the need for any sort of diff and making a solid axle ideal.
I for one am a die hard locked diff drifter, but I can see the merits to using a 2way or 1.5 way.
I have dabbled in drag racing and have also had best results with fully locked diffs, although marginal in GT, the locked diff shows a big advantage in LFS.
This paragraph definitely caught my attention.
But rather than reply with more off topic discussions, perhaps it'd be best to hold my thoughts for a more appropriate thread.
Or we could continue this via PM's, which I'm more than happy do to.
I tried to start a PM but your profile is set to private.
Even though, the paragraph you (Smoke) quoted is very wrong. (Not that you were saying it, but you were just interested).
Drifting is all about maintaining control while sideways. Yes, when it comes to competitions sometimes you tend to go for the highest amount of traction possible without losing the drift. But to be 100% fair, trying to get to that 'state' of just being on the edge of wheelspin, is really troublesome for tandems. It's dangerous, and is solely used for speed.
A much easier way to gain proximity is to either follow a line that is a little more shallow, or just decrease the angle you are drifting with a little.
Same point as before:
To rephrase once more, at this point I do not believe there is a difference between a locked (in your opinion 60 60 60), and a 2 way differential. (Which, very likely also is 60 60 60.) =D
Not trying to start anything, just pointing it out, considering you didn't respond to my last post.