80th running of the Le Mans 24 Hours - 16–17 June 2012

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gtone339
Any pictures of the Forza chicane?
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I wonder if they'll fill the run off with quick sand so it matches the game ;)

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Toyota on the pace from the get-go. I'm calling 1998 all over again... Which means reliability issues :grumpy:

Still, it's fantastic to see them not having run this car that much so far compared to the competition, and yet the pace is already there. Should point towards their potential 👍
 
Well it was raining so...

Rain stopped now, over three hours left in the session, it'll be another hour till the track gets dry enough for real runs to be had, and the track's gonna be green again...
 
:grumpy: I've just started my annual Eurosport player subscription for this race and I can't get it to play on any browser at all. :banghead:

I don't want to be stuck with just Radio Le Mans for this race. It's the event of the year for me.
 
McNish just did a 3'25,927 !!!!! :crazy:

EDIT - And Franchitti improved the DWing best laptime to a 3'48,271. Apparently they are using the same set of tyres all day long.
 
Fastest time of the day from McNish, a 3:25.927, so they're definitely picking up towards qualifying pace, though the RLM team suggest both Toyota and Audi are sand bagging to an extent. They're guessing at 3:22 flat for pole.

For those wondering on the Delta Wing's pace, fastest time in this session is a 3:48.xxx, so sort of around P2 pace I would guess.
 
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wow ... 86 pages of goodness in pics and text about LM! Many thanks, done and downloaded, have something to read later today! 👍

Meanwhile, La Sarthe showing its teeth. These are the latest 3 4 tweets from the ACO (in french, but easy to understand)



ACO french twitter account
4m ACO ‏@24heuresdumans
L'Audi n°2 ne repartira pas. #LEMANS #24LM #WEC


6m ACO ‏@24heuresdumans
L’Audi n°2 pilotée par Allan McNish est arrêtée au Tertre Rouge. Elle est endommagée. #LEMANS #24LM #WEC


8m ACO ‏@24heuresdumans
La Toyota n°7 de Kazuki Nakajima est au ralenti sur le circuit. #LEMANS #24LM #WEC


10m ACO ‏@24heuresdumans
Fin de séance pour la Lola-Toyota n°12 : suspension cassée. #LEMANS #24LM #WEC
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Yep, McNish crashed at Tetre Rouge, clearly there isn't much between the Audi's and the Toyota's, so he's striving for better.

Interesting test day anyway so far, confirms Toyota can match the Audi's for speed, but as in '98, reliability will be the issue.
 
Emptyone
Interesting test day anyway so far, confirms Toyota can match the Audi's for speed, but as in '98, reliability will be the issue.
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Well they're not matching, a second off, but that's a massive effort for their first time out for sure, it won't be a stretch for them to up the pace a bit to really run at the same pace.

This is bad, now I'm gonna go through testing withdrawls till the practices.
 
Wardez
Well they're not matching, a second off, but that's a massive effort for their first time out for sure, it won't be a stretch for them to up the pace a bit to really run at the same pace.

This is bad, now I'm gonna go through testing withdrawls till the practices.
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Well, until the past hour or so, it was pretty even, and this morning it was practically the same, which is I agree a decent achievement. I might get RLM withdrawal symptoms too, decent commentary as always.
 
Red flag with 3 minutes to go. Session ends.

Starworks' LMP2 HPD went off at Dunlop, Radio Le Mans reports heavy damage, but driver ok.

From DeltaWing, it seems guys are happy. Here their latest tweet:

Highcroft Racing ‏@highcroftracing

Close to the end of the day.
@SatoshiMotoyama finishing out the day.
Every lap but 1 on wets on the same 4 Michelin tires. #nissandeltawing
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http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/formula-1-powertrains-for-le-mans-in-2014/

Interesting article about 2014 regulations and the possibility of F1 engines debuting in the same year being compatible to use in WEC. They may have even drafted up the rules to accommodate this from the start. Interesting since, as they say in the articles, it'll be a great mix up between the two disciplines and get, at least engine, manufacturers looking at each other more so it's nothing but good.

Although the promised new regulation details for 2014 won't be released for at least another week, there have been a lot of informed speculation saying they're going to increase maximum engine capacity in LMP1 to 5.0 liters. Of course, 2014 spec's for F1 are V6 1.6 liters but they are turbocharged so they'll produce the same, even more, than what the propitiatory LMP1 engine makers will peak at with their take on the new engine rules.

They're going to ban variable geometry turbo chargers that are on the Audis currently for 2014.

The article also states that maximum boost pressure will be 4 bar, which is 58 PSI. So the F1 engines shouldn't be limited at all by that stipulation since I expect F1 turbos to put out around 30PSI, but won't need to go up past 50 (which is what they used to click the turbos up to back in the nutty '80s there for reference).

But they may be limited by the fact that there will be a maximum fuel flow rate. So that may more become the equalizer. But I expect them to do really well. As far as who would use them... that's the clincher, 'cause none of the top teams will right away, so it may be the LMP1"B" cars that pick them up initially. It'll definitely be an interesting sound and test for what are inherently sprint race engines compared to Le Mans.

The last time F1 and LM converged on engines it killed the WSC. These are different circumstances though.
It killed Group C as all the manufacturers just migrated to F1 or left entirely, and the privateers couldn't afford the development costs.
 
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Wardez
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/formula-1-powertrains-for-le-mans-in-2014/

Interesting article about 2014 regulations and the possibility of F1 engines debuting in the same year being compatible to use in WEC. They may have even drafted up the rules to accommodate this from the start. Interesting since, as they say in the articles, it'll be a great mix up between the two disciplines and get, at least engine, manufacturers looking at each other more so it's nothing but good.

Although the promised new regulation details for 2014 won't be released for at least another week, there have been a lot of informed speculation saying they're going to increase maximum engine capacity in LMP1 to 5.0 liters. Of course, 2014 spec's for F1 are V6 1.6 liters but they are turbocharged so they'll produce the same, even more, than what the propitiatory LMP1 engine makers will peak at with their take on the new engine rules.

They're going to ban variable geometry turbo chargers that are on the Audis currently for 2014.

The article also states that maximum boost pressure will be 4 bar, which is 58 PSI. So the F1 engines shouldn't be limited at all by that stipulation since I expect F1 turbos to put out around 30PSI, but won't need to go up past 50 (which is what they used to click the turbos up to back in the nutty '80s there for reference).

But they may be limited by the fact that there will be a maximum fuel flow rate. So that may more become the equalizer. But I expect them to do really well. As far as who would use them... that's the clincher, 'cause none of the top teams will right away, so it may be the LMP1"B" cars that pick them up initially. It'll definitely be an interesting sound and test for what are inherently sprint race engines compared to Le Mans.

The last time F1 and LM converged on engines it killed the WSC. These are different circumstances though.
It killed Group C as all the manufacturers just migrated to F1 or left entirely, and the privateers couldn't afford the development costs.
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Every time F1 and Sports Cars have converged on engines it killed sports cars.

F1 just does it to leach manufacturers. That's the only reason they do it.
 
When was the other time when this happened? I only know of the attempt in the early 1990s - there were more factors involved than just the engine regulations that led to the downfall of old WSC. If this was the only time an attempt was made to have engine regulations converge, then "every time" means a lot less.

Having engine convergence isn't necessarily a bad thing. Its highly beneficial for engine manufacturers obviously. The key is making the engines cheap enough for sportscars, as F1 engines are typically more expensive (I would assume that to be the case).
Would Ferrari or Mercedes be willing to offer their F1 engine for sportscars teams at a lower price tag? Would they produce a LM engine that was cheaper with the same specs? I can only see sportscars engine manufacturers benefitting if they can carry over their development.
 
Does the 3 litre Group 6 era ring any bells for you?

That's how it was done then and it was why it was done in the 90's.
 
Oh no, if this is true then it is bad. I see a repeat of the Group C debacle ... the 90's all over again ... :yuck:

Just for reference, a quick look on wikipedia. Sounds confusing, but there's no doubt on how low things went.

wikipedia page on Group C
Rise and fall

By 1989, the Group C series popularity was nearly as great as Formula One. When C1 cars were found to be breaking over the 240 miles per hour mark at Le Mans' Mulsanne Straight — the WM-Peugeot recorded the highest 407 km/h (253 mph) — the FIA revolutionized the class by attempting to turn it into a formula series to replace the C2 category (after they proved to be unreliable at endurance races). The new formula restricted the performance of cars built to the original rules (such as the Porsche 962 used by many privateers) and benefited teams using F1-sourced 3.5 L engines — these latter teams being effectively the large manufacturers alone, as the new formula cars were more expensive than the C1 cars. What followed was the quick downfall of Group C, as Ford, Mercedes and Peugeot elected to either concentrate on or move to F1 directly, while F1 engines were unaffordable for privateer teams like Spice and ADA. A lack of entries meant the 1993 Sports Car World Championship was canceled before the start of the first race; however, because the Le Mans 24 hour race had become a non-championship race the previous year, the ACO still allowed the Group C cars to compete (albeit with restrictions). Nevertheless, the race still witnessed protests against the new state of affairs, as spectators placed cloth banners in fences expressing their feelings.
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I feared this when the new ACO-FIA friendship was announced. And posted accordingly.
 
Ardius
I don't have much knowledge of pre-Group C sportscars thats why I ask.
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I'm fairly sure there's lot to read about it available but the gist is that Group 7 being faster and more popular than F1 didn't go down well with F1.

It was killed off in favour of Group 6 with 3 Litre engines. This lead to a sports car series with detuned F1 engines and slower speeds. Sports car popularity suffered greatly because of this.

This was partially fixed with the turbo equivalency formula which meant you could run a 2.1 turbo engine instead of a 3 litre normally aspirated engine.

It was properly fixed by Group C. Once Eccelstone and Mosley felt the popularity of Group C impinging on F1, they stepped in to "save" Sports cars by turning it into a 3.5 litre formula specifically for the purpose of gaining engine manufacturers for F1
 
Hun200kmh
Oh no, if this is true then it is bad. I see a repeat of the Group C debacle ... the 90's all over again ... :yuck:

Just for reference, a quick look on wikipedia. Sounds confusing, but there's no doubt on how low things went.



I feared this when the new ACO-FIA friendship was announced. And posted accordingly.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's going to have the possibility of going down like that at all.

From Porsche, Ford, Mercedes and Peugeot, only Mercedes succeeded in F1 and was "lost" to F1. The other manufacturers failed over time so I think they've learned their lesson.

Who is there to lose to F1 today? We all know Audi's one of the bigger voices that speak out against F1 and how much they rather appreciate being able to develop road car technology with their race cars and that being the reason they won't race in F1.
Toyota's already had a storied affair with F1, and with the way they went out, you can be sure they won't be looking at F1 for a long while, although I'm not sure whether or not they'd want to make engines for it in the future, but there really are enough manufacturers already and it's an expensive trade at that, so I'd doubt it.

I think it's completely fine, nothing bad can come of this. Audi, Toyota, and Porsche solutions going from 2014 in LMP1 will be much stronger than bespoked F1 engines on the lower teams, so the only people that should really worry is Judd.
 
FFS. "Must use" vs. "can use". If anything, the new regs are more made more of the original Group C idea than the 3.5L idea.

Posted this already in the other thread. This is from March, but considering that the new regs have been in the making since July 2010, when the first manufacturer meeting was held, probably not much has changed. Use of F1 engine was alwasy going to be possible, now it's apparently just made easier somehow.


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