A quick math question.

[OZZYGT]

During my math years at my high school, I learned many complicated ways of solving problems. Back when I was in Italy, our math teacher (whom I consider being the best one I've ever had) taught us different clever ways of solving equations and basic arithmetic stuff; but I guess he was geek, in fact, he was the only one of my teachers who put as much effort in his teaching as three teachers combined. But one thing I cannot let go, is a numerical notation that for some reason seems to be wrong to me.

And is this:

As we all know, zeros to the right of a number express that number times 10. So the number 1,000 + another zero would make it 100,000 and after another zerom, that number would become a million...right?

This being said: Why is it, that here, In the United States of America, teachers tel students that the number after 100,000,000,000 is not One hundred thousand million??? BUT, a Billion???.

I asked many teachers about this and their response was..."that's just the way it is"...or " there's no way you can say "one hundred thousand million".
But I learned that after "one hundred thousand million" there's a billion.

1,000,000 X 1,000,000 = 1,000,000,000,000 = A billion.

This is they way I intially learnt it and I just can't understand that here is different than everywhere else. Would that be a disadvantage on money transactions between countries?

To me, there should not be any diference between this. I like the mtric system and the yard/feet american system.


Can anybody enlight me on this?









Ciao!

 

[Dave A]

American's just do it differently I've never known the reason behind that but it makes more sense to me to do it 1,000 x 1,000,000 = 1 billion.

Regarding it affecting money, it doesn't have any effect on money, the number of zero's are still the same regardless of what you call the number.

 

[Jay]

Way I have always known it


1,000 = Thousand
1,000,000 = Million
1,000,000,000 = Billion

is it, that here, In the United States of America, teachers tel students that the number after 100,000,000,000 is not One hundred thousand million??? BUT, a Billion???.

That number (100,000,000,000) looks like a hundred billion to me





*EDIT*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion

 

[Touring Mars]

This being said: Why is it, that here, In the United States of America, teachers tel students that the number after 100,000,000,000 is not One hundred thousand million??? BUT, a Billion???.

In the UK and Europe, a billion is 1,000 million, or a thousand millions (1,000,000,000)
In the US, a billion is 1,000,000 million or a million millions (1,000,000,000,000)

The number you have above, 100,000,000,000, would be 100,000 million to an American, and 100 billion to a European... the next level up would be 1 billion to an American, and 1 trillion to a European...

The best method is to avoid nomenclature like that altogether and simply refer to it in terms of factors of ten... 10 x 10 x 10, or 10 to the power of 3, is one thousand, and is sometimes typed as 10 superscript 3 (don't know how to do that in these posts) or 10^3.... a million is 10^6, and everything above can simply be written as 10^x....

 

[OZZYGT]

Way I have always known it


1,000 = Thousand
1,000,000 = Million
1,000,000,000 = Billion



That number (100,000,000,000) looks like a hundred billion to me

You see, this is exactly what I'm saying. That number 1,000,000,000,000 should be a billion. If after one thousand, two zeros are added, then it's one hundred thousand right? so in this part 1,000,000,000,000 it should be one hundred thousand million. And the one should represent the Billion.

In the UK and Europe, a billion is 1,000 million, or a thousand millions (1,000,000,000)
In the US, a billion is 1,000,000 million or a million millions (1,000,000,000,000)

The number you have above, 100,000,000,000, would be 100,000 million to an American, and 100 billion to a European... the next level up would be 1 billion to an American, and 1 trillion to a European...

But why? If, 1 thousand plus another zero is ten thousand, after another, one is hundred thousand, after another is..one million. Ok so why wouldn' it be the same after we get passed the million?




Ciao!



Ciao!

 

[Touring Mars]

You see, this is exactly what I'm saying. That number 1,000,000,000,000 should be a billion. If after one thousand, two zeros are added, then it's one hundred thousand right? so in this part 1,000,000,000,000 it should be one hundred thousand million. And the one should represent the Billion.




Ciao!

I don't know if you're confusing yourself here...

1,000,000,000,000 is a billion - in American nomenclature anyway...
100,000,000,000 is one hundred thousand million - in America, but not in Europe, since we'd call it 100 billion...

Whoever said you can't say "one hundred thousand million" is wrong - you can, we just don't need to say it Europe since by our definition, it's one hundred billion.... but in America, I can't see what else they could call it if not one hundred thousand million...

 

[OZZYGT]

I don't know if you're confusing yourself here...

1,000,000,000,000 is a billion - in American nomenclature anyway...
100,000,000,000 is one hundred thousand million - in America, but not in Europe, since we'd call it 100 billion...

OK. 1,000,000 is a million right?

So 100 X 1 million is , one hundred million? right? so add a zero to that. That would make it 1 thousand million. wich would be 1,000,000,000. After this, is when you say, "20 thousand million dollars" which is 20,000,000,000 right?

so add 1 more zero to that and it makes it 200 thousand million dollars right?


Somebody hit me with a pole! doesn't this make sense?...it's just numerical order right?




Ciao!

 

[Famine]

In the UK and Europe, a billion is 1,000 million, or a thousand millions (1,000,000,000)
In the US, a billion is 1,000,000 million or a million millions (1,000,000,000,000)

T'other way round.

Most "older" Brits would say that a billion is a million million - 1,000,000,000,000.
Most younger Brits and almost everyone else in the world (who speaks English - don't ask the Japanese) would say that a billion is a thousand million - 1,000,000,000.

The "American" (and modern British) way makes more sense - we change names every third factor:

1 = One.
10 = Ten.
100 = A Hundred.
1,000 = One Thousand.
10,000 = Ten Thousand.
100,000 = A Hundred Thousand.
1,000,000 = One Million.
10,000,000 = Ten Million.
100,000,000 = A Hundred Million.
1,000,000,000 = One Billion.
10,000,000,000 = Ten Billion.
100,000,000,000 = A Hundred Billion.
1,000,000,000,000 = One Trillion.

Notice how the cycle goes "one unit", "ten unit", "a hundred unit" then back to "one unit".

If you included every previously named unit before switching to a new one, you'd be there for a long time. You could, in theory, have "one hundred thousand million hundred thousand million billion hundred thousand million billion trillion" before switching to quadrillion, which would be 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 - or a hundred duodecoctrillion.

Just remember that every comma makes a new named unit.

 

[Touring Mars]

OK. 1,000,000 is a million right?

Yup

So 100 X 1 million is , one hundred million? right?

Yep

so add a zero to that. That would make it 1 thousand million. wich would be 1,000,000,000.

Yes, in the US.... here in Europe it's 1 billion

After this, is when you say, "20 thousand million dollars" which is 20,000,000,000 right?

Yep

so add 1 more zero to that and it makes it 200 thousand million dollars right?

Yeh... and what's wrong with that? Like I said, the person who said you can't say that is not exactly right... in Europe you should say 200 billion, but in the US, you'd be correct to say 200 thousand million dollars...

edit: oh yes... Famine's right... it is the other way around... It's the American system that makes more sense...

 

[Dave A]

Nope, not for us.
1,000 - thousand
1,000,000 - million
1,000,000,000 - billion
1,000,000,000,000 - Trillion

There's a pattern being followed there. Sure you can call one of our billions a thousand million, but then you can also call one of your billions a million million. So that 20 thousand million dollars is also 20 bliiion dollars to me. Famines covered it pretty much.

 

[OZZYGT]

100,000,000 = A Hundred Million.
1,000,000,000 = One Billion.

And that shift is what drives me crazy. Why is the thousand left out?




Ciao!

 

[Famine]

And that shift is what drives me crazy. Why is the thousand left out?

Comma = new named unit.

 

[Keef]

1 = one
10 = ten
100 = one hundred
1,000 = one thousand
10,000 = ten thousand
100,000 = one-hundred thousand
1,000,000 = one million
10,000,000 = ten million
100,000,000 = one-hundred million
1,000,000,000 = one billion
10,000,000,000 = ten billion
100,000,000,000 = one-hundred billion
1,000,000,000,000 = one trillion

From a bonified American to you. Even before I learned what "one-thousand-million" meant, it made zero sense to me. I asked my teacher, got an answer, and said "Our way is so much easier, why don't they do it?"

D'oh, it seems I've been treed.

 

[OZZYGT]

Comma = new named unit.

If this is true, then why this v v v

1,000,000 = One Million.

happens after this??

100,000 = A Hundred Thousand.

Ciao!

 

[the Interceptor]

Because you add a new comma from 100,000 to 1,000,000, so you go from the old unit, thousand, to the new unit, million.

 

[Keef]

one million is the beginning of that three-number cycle.

one
ten
hundred
.....
one thousand
ten thousand
hundred thousand
.....
one million
ten million
hundred million
.....

 

[Famine]

If this is true, then why this v v v

happens after this??

New comma = new named unit.

The first comma has the name "thousand". So 1,000 is one thousand, not ten hundred. 10,000 is ten thousand, not hundred hundred. 100,000 is a hundred thousand, not ten hundred hundred.

Then the second comma arrives and it has the name "million". So 1,000,000 is one million, not hundred hundred hundred, or thousand thousand.

New comma = new named unit.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

We use "Miljard" instead of Billion

 

[the Interceptor]

We use "Miljard" instead of Billion

Yeah, we do as well:

1.000 = tausend
1.000.000 = million
1.000.000.000 = milliarde
1.000.000.000.000 = billion
1.000.000.000.000.000 = billiarde
1.000.000.000.000.000.000 = trillion
1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 = trilliarde
...

 

[Danoff]

I've lived in America my whole life, why have I never heard the term 100,000 million? And why have I never heard that 1 million x 1 million = 1 billion?

It's simple, it's metric, cope. Famine said it correctly.

1 = one
10 = ten
100 = one hundred
1,000 = one thousand
1,000,000 = one million
1,000,000,000 = one billion

Those are the named units, in between we refer to them by the next lowest named set.

 

[daan]

So how many zeros is a gazillion?

And how many zeros in a "Brazilian"?

 

[Touring Mars]

And how many zeros in a "Brazilian"?

I dunno, but I heard they were quite naughty...

 

[Famine]

So how many zeros is a gazillion?

An oodleplex.

And how many zeros in a "Brazilian"?

No clue - but I can tell you how many 9mm rounds are in him...

 

[OZZYGT]

I've lived in America my whole life, why have I never heard the term 100,000 million? And why have I never heard that 1 million x 1 million = 1 billion?

It's simple, it's metric, cope. Famine said it correctly.

1 = one
10 = ten
100 = one hundred
1,000 = one thousand
1,000,000 = one million
1,000,000,000 = one billion

Those are the named units, in between we refer to them by the next lowest named set.

OK. The reason why I thought 1 million X 1 Million was because the term "Bi-llion" has that "bi" which I understood it as a "2".

I understand what Famine has said, but, my question was...why is it that th term Billion can't be like Million if:

1,000 X 1,000 = Million. So then 1,000,000 X 1,000,000 = Billlion.

Or also

10 = Ten
100= Hundred
1,000 = Thousand
10,000 = Ten Thousand
100,000 = Hundred Thousand
1,000,000 = 1 Million.

So now that we have this...why shouldn't we "pretend" that we have no zeros after the 1 and just start the same way we did at the begining?


But now I see that the order prior getting to 1 million is not relative to the order after the 1 million mark. I just didn't understand why would we go off the track and start a new order.


Another thing, a couple of people stated that this order is different in the UK than the American. To me is like Americans being hesitant about changing their measuring system. I swear that to me these diferences are un-necessary and we should all have one common method to represent things.




Ciao!

 

[Dave A]

Do you have any idea how styupidly long winded numbers would become using the locic that a new named unit only appears after you multiply the last one by itself. By that logic a trillion would be 1 billion x 1 billion, that's 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1 trillion, 999,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 would be written as nine hundered and nighty nine thousand million billion. By allowing named units of three zero's or more to become part of other named units ie a thousand million your only complicating the process whne one thousand million can simply be referred to as one billion. The same goes for one trillion, instead of one thousand billion you call it one trillion.

So now that we have this...why shouldn't we "pretend" that we have no zeros after the 1 and just start the same way we did at the begining?

Ok so you start with the 9 major numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9, what does that support?

But now I see that the order prior getting to 1 million is not relative to the order after the 1 million mark. I just didn't understand why would we go off the track and start a new order.

No, after 100 the pattern is fixed upto and beyond 1 million.
1 - One
10 - Ten
100 - One Hundered
1,000 - One thousand
10,000 - Ten thousand
100,000 - One hundered thousand
1,000,000 - One million
10,000,000 - Ten million
100,000,000 - One hundered million
1,000,000,000 - One billion
I don't see any problem with that pattern or why it's hard to understand.

 

[OZZYGT]

Do you have any idea how styupidly long winded numbers would become using the locic that a new named unit only appears after you multiply the last one by itself. By that logic a trillion would be 1 billion x 1 billion, that's 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1 trillion, 999,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 would be written as nine hundered and nighty nine thousand million billion. By allowing named units of three zero's or more to become part of other named units ie a thousand million your only complicating the process whne one thousand million can simply be referred to as one billion. The same goes for one trillion, instead of one thousand billion you call it one trillion.

Actually I thought a trillion was 1 Million X 1 Million X 1 Million...not a billion times a billion.....



Ciao!

 

[Famine]

OK. The reason why I thought 1 million X 1 Million was because the term "Bi-llion" has that "bi" which I understood it as a "2".

Well, that's why it's there - but billion isn't 2 million either. It's just "one order higher than million". For every new name it increases by one - trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, hexillion/sexillion, septillion/heptillion, octillion, nonillion, decillion and so on.

I understand what Famine has said, but, my question was...why is it that th term Billion can't be like Million if:

1,000 X 1,000 = Million. So then 1,000,000 X 1,000,000 = Billlion.

Why is 100 x 100 not anything out of the ordinary? It's just ten thousand.

10 = Ten
100= Hundred
1,000 = Thousand
10,000 = Ten Thousand
100,000 = Hundred Thousand
1,000,000 = 1 Million.

So now that we have this...why shouldn't we "pretend" that we have no zeros after the 1 and just start the same way we did at the begining?

But now I see that the order prior getting to 1 million is not relative to the order after the 1 million mark. I just didn't understand why would we go off the track and start a new order.

We don't. We have:

One thing.
Ten things.
Hundred things.

Then the name of the things changes and it goes back to one thing:

One thing.
Ten things.
Hundred things.

Then the name of the things changes and it goes back to one thing:

One thing.
Ten things.
Hundred things.

(and so on)

Example:
One unit.
Ten units.
Hundred units.
<<name change>>
One thousand.
Ten thousand.
Hundred thousand.
<<name change>>
One million.
Ten million.
Hundred million.
<<name change>>
One billion.
Ten billion.
Hundred billion
<<name change>>
One trillion.
Ten trillion.
Hundred trillion.
<<name change>>
One quadrillion.
Ten quadrillion.
Hundred quadrillion

(and so on)

Another thing, a couple of people stated that this order is different in the UK than the American. To me is like Americans being hesitant about changing their measuring system. I swear that to me these diferences are un-necessary and we should all have one common method to represent things.

The British system predates the American system. It's the British system that needs updating. It's stupid to list every single preceding named unit before advancing to the next one.

 

[Keef]

See, we Americans can do the whole multiply-by-ten-every-time-hey-it's-the-metric-system thing. Meh.

 

[OZZYGT]

We don't. We have:

One thing.
Ten things.
Hundred things.

Then the name of the things changes and it goes back to one thing:

One thing.
Ten things.
Hundred things.

Then the name of the things changes and it goes back to one thing:

One thing.
Ten things.
Hundred things.

(and so on)

Example:
One unit.
Ten units.
Hundred units.
<<name change>>
One thousand.
Ten thousand.
Hundred thousand.
<<name change>>
One million.
Ten million.
Hundred million.
<<name change>>
One billion.
Ten billion.
Hundred billion
<<name change>>
One trillion.
Ten trillion.
Hundred trillion.
<<name change>>
One quadrillion.
Ten quadrillion.
Hundred quadrillion

(and so on)

Ohhh ok ok, I fully understand now...I was just blinded by the thousand term. You're absolutely right.

Thank you everybody, my question has been answered

BTW, I can't believe a math teacher wasn't able to tell me this instead of saying "I don't know, that's just the way it is"





Ciao!

 

[Danoff]

1,000,000,000,000

The bold digits have names. The first bold digit is called "thousand", the second bold digit is called "million", the next bold digit is called "billion", after that it's "trillion". The commas indicate when we group them. We do this for convenience.

We do the same thing with meters.

10 meters = Dekameter
100 meters = Hectometer
1,000 meters = Kilometer
10,000 meters = 10 kilometers
100,000 meters = 100 kilometers
1,000,000 meters = 1 megameter
10,000,000 meters = 10 megameters
100,000,000 meters = 100 megameters
1,000,000,000 meters = 1 gigameter

Remind you of anything (megabyte, gigabyte, hectobyte... well, that last one maybe not)

On the other side
1e-1 meters = Decimeter
1e-2 meters = centimeter
1e-3 meters = millimeter
then it skips to
1e-6 meters = micrometer
then
1e-9 meters = nanometer
then
1e-12 meters = picometer

We name them for conveince, so that when you're having a conversation you don't have to say 1e-3 meters, you can just say millimeter. Or you can say a gigabyte instead of 1 billion bytes (or as you might say it, one thousand millions bytes).

Edit: Oops, I see this conversation ended before I posted... doh!