AI slow down to let you win.

[GENERALSAVANT]

The lead driver gets the call

 

[Nielsen]

Why not just race online? The option is right there.

Actually, that was my intention all along but for some weird reason we are forced to play a portion of Career Mode before we are allowed to go online.

 

[HKS racer]

I can't believe this ****. At first AI was so promising but now... This is not a racing game at all.
Why are they trying to develop GT for everybody?

Because they decided it's more profitable that way, but we are no longer in the '90, at least 50% of GT users have a steering wheel, so I'm not even sure it's best model of business for them NOW.

I'm so furious right now that I don't even want to touch this game anymore.

It's so sad because I already own GT1, GT2, GT3, GT Concept, GT4, GT4 Prologue, GT5, GT5 Prologue...

I know that feeling, very disappointing. But life goes on. Assetto Corsa looks very very promising, if their AI proves to be great you know what to do.

Let's not fool ourselves. Even casual gamers will find the game easy. No need to be a GT veteran to see and feel that.

I agree. If we could interview all casual GT6 users I guess lot of them will tell you GT6 is too easy.
Seems like PD really thinks their users are retarded.
But if so many people keep buying their games... how can I say it? ...Well all these people somehow are proving them a point. (No disrespect intended).

 

[GranTurismoer]

How does PD go from GT academy to this useless AI, it's mind boggling and very worrying.

 

[talkin_2_me]

He's comparing GT6 AI to F5 AI - after all, this thread is for discussion about the AI (check the title and OP). There are other threads for everything you mentioned.

The way I read his post is that he prefered the AI in Forza but liked GT6 better as a whole. I just wondered why that is, that's all.
But nevermind, I bet none of your 3k+ posts went off topic, ever.

 

[Alss]

The way I read his post is that he prefered the AI in Forza but liked GT6 better as a whole. I just wondered why that is, that's all.
But nevermind, I bet none of your 3k+ post went off topic, ever.

Not the thread for Forza vs GT but feel free to pm me buddy.

 

[Giulietta73]

The way I read his post is that he prefered the AI in Forza but liked GT6 better as a whole. I just wondered why that is, that's all.
But nevermind, I bet none of your 3k+ posts went off topic, ever.

Like I said, there are other threads for discussion on physics, graphics, amount of tracks and cars, racing experience etc.
Don't quite see what relevance my post count has though.

 

[Alss]

Lets keep it chilled guys ;-)

 

[Gabe Logan]

Agree totally. One thing that's different this time round though is that they actually kind of race each other, so we might see some sort of adjustability in a future update. I'm not crossing my fingers though!

I agree - especiallly about the "don't hold yer breath" part !!!

Rubber-banding is awfull - why not simply have an Ai difficulty slider like most driving games - hell, even GTR (on the PC) 10 years ago, had a slider between 90 and 120 % allowing 30 different settings for Ai strength.

Career is a joke in GT5.

Basically you 'catch the leader' by the last half a lap, and then either win or don't. There is no racing as such, because the other 4 cars are much slower than you.

 

[HKS racer]

I agree - especiallly about the "don't hold yer breath" part !!!

Rubber-banding is awfull - why not simply have an Ai difficulty slider like most driving games - hell, even GTR (on the PC) 10 years ago, had a slider between 90 and 120 % allowing 30 different settings for Ai strength.

Career is a joke in GT5.

Basically you 'catch the leader' by the last half a lap, and then either win or don't. There is no racing as such, because the other 4 cars are much slower than you.

Explained in my post above, because PD think most of their customers are retarded noobs.
Now make your own conclusion about the future of the series.

 

[RC45]

The worst thing ist they not only slow down to let you catch up again, the keep getting slower and slower until you pass them.

You can perfectly see it in the replay if you switch to the leading car and watch his laptimes.

I did it on serveral races, best you can see it in the 10min. Race in Int. B , Rome.

First i took the BMW 1 tii, and did about the same lap times as the leader with the M3GTR (~1:22)
So i was always 10-12sec. behind. First 3/4 laps he did 1:22, then he started to slow down 1:25, 1:29, 1:30.
7th lap i closed up and passed him and he started to go faster again.

Next i took the NSX-R, i was behind him in 4th lap but did not pass ( stayed ~1sec behind)
First he was driving ok, i could not keep up at the straights, but he started breaking way to soon and rolling around corners, after 3 laps of this game i had to take back throttle to 70% on the straight to not pass him. Last 3 laps we did 1:26, 1:27, 1:29.

Next i did the same but this time passed him in 4th lap and kept on going fast, guess how his laptimes looked like in the replay ?
1:22, 1:22, 1:22, 1:22, 1:22, 1:22, 1:22

This is really FUBAR, worst thing ever in my opinion.
Makes the whole carrer mode kind of pointless, why spent hours doing races i cant lose no matter how bad i drive or how bad my car selection was ?

I could understand it a tiny little bit if they would only slow down until you are lets say 2sec. behind them and then continue with 100%
Would make it more easy for newcomers and lets be onest, many races are impossible to win on a really equal car if you only have 3 laps and are 10sec. back and last on start.

But slowing down more and more until you pass them is so wrong...

It is just against all rules of sportsmenship and competition and terrible to have in a "driving simulator"


This comes to mind:
"Let Michael pass for the championship"

Later in the game the AI gets faster.

During a 'race' the AI 'slows' to allow you to catch up, then if you pass the 'race' is on.

When I did final GT Championship race to unlock S License test, the races where brutal. No room for any error if you do pass the leader. He/she is right on your bumper all the way to the line. And losing by 0.5s on the final race (2 laps of the Nurburgring at night) really sucks. The AI hounded be all the way down the main straight. 200mph+ at night on the 'Ring with AI on your rear wing makes for some intense racing.

Now to the point of this elastic AI.

Gran Turismo is NOT a Series Race racing game. It is a TRACKDAY racing game. Witness the single file rolling starts and abundance of STREET cars.

If you have ever been to a real open track day, then you will know that driving buddies and friendly rivals do this all the time - you LET your buddy catch up THEN you start dicing. Where is the enjoyment in walking away with the race each time? And if the AI was uncatchable then people would be whining that it is impossible to win.

The current competition model is exactly the way it should be.

If people want a Series Race game there are plenty out there. If I want a Series race I fire up my PC racing rig, if I want to attend a track day without taking my real life car (pictured below) to a local track, I fire up Grant Turismo 4 5 6

 

[HKS racer]

Later in the game the AI 'slows' to allow you to catch up, then if you pass the 'race' is on.

When I did final GT Championship race to unlock S License test, the races where brutal. No room for any error if you do pass the leader. He/she is right on your bumper all the way to the line. And losing by 0.5s on the final race (2 laps of the Nurburgring at night) really sucks. The AI hounded be all the way down the main straight. 200mph+ at night on the 'Ring with AI on your rear wing makes for some intense racing.

Now to the point of this elastic AI.

Gran Turismo is NOT a Series Race racing game. It is a TRACKDAY racing game. Witness the single file rolling starts and abundance of STREET cars.

If you have ever been to a real open track day, then you will know that driving buddies and friendly rivals do this all the time - you LET your buddy catch up THEN you start dicing. Where is the enjoyment in walking away with the race each time? And if the AI was uncatchable then people would be whining that it is impossible to win.

The current competition model is exactly the way it should be.

Actaually in trackdays there are NO POSITIONS or LAPS. You just drive and when you are done you go to the box and the trackday is OVER.
What people is complaining here is GT lets you win RACES far too easily which is different.

Oh and as far as I know GT do have RACE cars as well.

 

[Pilitev]

Are those rolling starts a necessary choice or a voluntary choice?

 

[Aria]

Gran Turismo is NOT a Series Race racing game. It is a TRACKDAY racing game. Witness the single file rolling starts and abundance of STREET cars.

If you have ever been to a real open track day, then you will know that driving buddies and friendly rivals do this all the time - you LET your buddy catch up THEN you start dicing. Where is the enjoyment in walking away with the race each time? And if the AI was uncatchable then people would be whining that it is impossible to win.

Ok. Everything is fine now. I'm just having some fun with my BOT friends and after race we are going to have a couple of beers. I was playing GT6 wrong.

 

[RC45]

Actaually in trackdays there are NO POSITIONS or LAPS. You just drive and when you are done you go to the box and the trackday is OVER.
What people is complaining here is GT lets you win RACES far too easily which is different.

Oh and as far as I know GT do have RACE cars as well.

The AI has a strength progression. Early races are easy, later races are harder. Are you racing with any aids turned on? Are you using a wheel, 3 pedals and a gated shifter for cars with manual gearboxes?

And at open trackdays folks DO dice and there is passing even without point byes in faster run groups. Otherwise what would the point be of driving fast with folks you trust on track?

Gran Turismo has race cars but no actual Series Races. (GT6 does have a few that crept in, NASCAR, GT300 and GT500 but they are few and not the theme of the entire franchise) There are plenty of Series based race games out there - go gethca one

GT doesn't let you win, it lets you catch the leader and then have a dice to the checkered flag.

Ok. Everything is fine now. I'm just having some fun with my BOT friends and after race we are going to have a couple of beers. I was playing GT6 wrong.

Pretty much.

 

[Gabe Logan]

Otherwise known as "Catch the Rabbit".

Not exactly wheel to wheel racing is it ?

 

[RC45]

Otherwise known as "Catch the Rabbit".

Not exactly wheel to wheel racing is it ?

If you want to prove your wheel to wheel racing prowess, sign up for iRacing and have at it. Gran Turismo has never ever claimed to be a 'wheel to wheel racing game'.

 

[Gabe Logan]

If you want to prove your wheel to wheel racing prowess, sign up for iRacing and have at it. Gran Turismo has never ever claimed to be a 'wheel to wheel racing game'.

I do play iRacing.

Making observations about Ai has nothing to do with my "prowess".

And, calling itself the "Ultimate Driving Simulator"... certainly does imply that.

 

[Alss]

RC45 , I do track events motorsport is a very strong passion of mine , so tell me please if GT6 was intended as a track day game only why are there championships ?

Also why is there a "race" start and a "race" finish ?

None of the above have I ever come across at the track days ive attended .

I have however been involved in rolling start races but trust me when I say us guys on the track sure don't hang about waiting for the slower cars to catch up be them mates or not , when that flag shows the only thing on my mind and on the minds of the other drivers is that track head and getting to that start/finish line first.

 

[grrlpurple]

Well the last race I went into I deliberately made sure I was at least 100PP under the number quoted on the race screen. All but one car overtaken on the first two laps but the last car really did put up a fight for that 1st place spot. I'm a little peeved that I got nudged off track by him into, what would have been, a near fatal accident - but still good to see a car actually putting up a bit of a fight.

 

[HKS racer]

And at open trackdays folks DO dice and there is passing even without point byes in faster run groups. Otherwise what would the point be of driving fast with folks you trust on track?

Like it or not, GT is using "race" formats for their events, we still have laps, positions, a start and an end of the race.

Gran Turismo has race cars but no actual Series Races. (GT6 does have a few that crept in, NASCAR, GT300 and GT500 but they are few and not the theme of the entire franchise) There are plenty of Series based race games out there - go gethca one

Breaking news: Most of the time racing simulators don't have ALL the cars of one particualr series.
Breaking news 2: Yes, they can still have Race Series, eventually fictional like Gran Turismo.

GT doesn't let you win, it lets you catch the leader and then have a dice to the checkered flag.

You can't pretend I consider you seriously after this.

 

[RC45]

I do play iRacing.
Making observations about Ai has nothing to do with my "prowess".
And, calling itself the "Ultimate Driving Simulator"... certainly does imply that.

Mixed Bag Races <------------------------------------> Series Racing
Pretty obvious distinction.

The speed and aggression of the LEAD car is very different from the other cars, especially in the later series.

Most races are only 3, 4 or 5 laps. what would the point of 'real competition' if you are not qualifying first?

In a real series, the chances of the last place starter finishing 1st in 4 laps if the cars are anywhere evenly matched is slim. Hence you qualify to hopefully start dicing with the leaders from lap 1.

In this format that Gran Turismo uses you 'navigate' the non-leader then dice with the leader when you catch him.

This franchise has been like this since day. Why the confusion that it is not yet another iRacing or Forza clone?

RC45 , I do track events motorsport is a very strong passion of mine , so tell me please if GT6 was intended as a track day game only why are there championships ?

Also why is there a "race" start and a "race" finish ?

None of the above have I ever come across at the track days ive attended .

I have however been involved in rolling start races but trust me when I say us guys on the track sure don't hang about waiting for the slower cars to catch up be them mates or not , when that flag shows the only thing on my mind and on the minds of the other drivers is that track head and getting to that start/finish line first.

The race start and finish are obvious beginning and end points in time. You have not qualified, you re just plopped in the last 1/4 of the line up and the assumption is you will make your way to the front and dice with the leader to the checkered flag.

Again, a pretty simple format that GT has had since the beginning - why surprise and angst about it now?

If the AI in GT did not 'wait' for you to catch up within 3 or 4 laps you would have no way of winning, ever. You being a longtime track driver would know that if you start 40 seconds behind the leader on a 1m30s track and the leader runs the same lap time as you do, it would take you 20 or more laps to catch the leader if you cold run 2s a lap faster than they are.

In a 4 lap race you would need to run 10s a lap faster to make your way to the front in 4 laps - unless the leader waits for you, you would never be able to catch them.

Seems pretty obvious to me. *shrug*

 

[Bigbazz]

I had a Challenge in the International B championship. I was driving a 1991 Acura NSX, modified at around 400bhp on sports softs. Got the "David and Goliath" achievement. It felt like I had a decent challenge up at the front but the only time I was scared was for the straights.

It's an event where you're up against Bugatti Veyrons, Pagani Huayras, Mclaren F1's, Corvette ZR1's, Ferrari Enzo's and even the FXX. So no small competition, the Enzo in particular was absolutely destroying me on the straight, completely smoked me. But I was able to be faster through the corners, sometimes considerably so and sometimes the AI actually drove fast.


Still though, a 400 BHP 1991 modified street car against 700-1000bhp Hyper cars. The championship was the best racing I've had in the game but I do feel that I should not have really stood a chance. The AI at times did seem fast, but then at other times it felt like the AI was taking it easy on me. I fought my balls off to even get a 2nd place at High Speed Ring only for the rear end to get loose and I spun after coming out of the draft at the exit of a corner... But I was still able reclaim that 2nd place as if the AI had just waited for me, 1st place would have been possible with some blocking on the final straight if I had not spun, won all the other races with a 1-2second lead.


I'm certain the AI has the possibility of being good, it's just not... it's very confused. I want the AI to just drive fast all the time, then I have to up my game and diversify my car selection. I've won 21 events in my 91 NSX so far, from stock all the way up to a highly modified 400bhp beast on sports softs in the IB championship.

 

[RC45]

Like it or not, GT is using "race" formats for their events, we still have laps, positions, a start and an end of the race.

Breaking news: Most of the time racing simulators don't have ALL the cars of one particualr series.
Breaking news 2: Yes, they can still have Race Series, eventually fictional like Gran Turismo.


You can't pretend I consider you seriously after this.

How else do YOU propose the GAME (not simulation) allow you to have any chance of winning a 4 lap race that you start 16 places back with a car equal to or slower than the leader?

Again - unless you do 15, 20 laps and QUALIFY for position, there really is no other way to give you a chance of winning.

Why is this concept so hard to comprehend? The AI MUST allow you to catch up so you can race them to the finish line.

 

[Callum B]

It's true, I've noted so many times at the end of a race where the car behind me should pass me, but right as it gets alongside I can hear it lift off the accelerator and cruise next to me so that I win. It's really annoyed me has that, I'd feel better losing after a race than winning due to them slowing down for me.

 

[Tier 2 Racing]

15, 20 laps and QUALIFY for position

That there, is exactly what I want to do!

 

[HKS racer]

How else do YOU propose the GAME (not simulation) allow you to have any chance of winning a 4 lap race that you start 16 places back with a car equal to or slower than the leader?

Again - unless you do 15, 20 laps and QUALIFY for position, there really is no other way to give you a chance of winning.

Why is this concept so hard to comprehend? The AI MUST allow you to catch up so you can race them to the finish line.

I got it 3 years ago with GT5 mr. genius. The thing is once people realize AI is fake and programmed to loose, their immersion drops down miserably.

 

[finnracer]

The AI is very inconsistent, they will challenge you in a straight line and quite rarely through some corners but generally bends are taken at a sedate pace, with some very early braking! If you use a slow car it can be quite fun, driving a stock Clio 200 at 110% to beat an NSX round Bathurst was brilliant, but I'd much rather have more competition while driving a similar car to the AI.

 

[RC45]

That there, is exactly what I want to do!

Then pick up one of the other titles out there that does that

I personally don't fire up Gran Turismo for that typ eof racing - I have rFactor HistoriX, GTR2 etc for the long race weekends.

I got it 3 years ago with GT5 mr. genius. The thing is once people realize AI is fake and programmed to loose, their immersion drops down miserably.

The AI is not programmed to lose, it is programmed to allow you catch up so that you can then RACE with the front position.

 

[Alss]

No offence RC45 but where "motorsport" is concerned its clear you don't know your stuff so best to leave you to it , I'll reply to your posts in this thread no more , but stay chilled buddy.