AI slow down to let you win.

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by Alss, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. Templar82

    Templar82

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    The GTR Challenge had a standing start, granted that was only 2 cars.

    What are the graphical issues people are referring too?
     
  2. Pilitev

    Pilitev

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    Framerate issues when there are lots of premium cars next to each other. I read a couple of times here on the forum that may be the explanation of the rolling starts.
     
  3. Pilitev

    Pilitev

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    Yeah in other games it's possible but given the graphical standard PD has set with GT5 Prologue with the premiums wasn't this a path of no return?
     
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  4. ussr

    ussr Premium

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    Best example is in Kart racing. Where first laps opponents drive like crazy then on last two laps they slow down, so you can catch up and barely overtake just before the finish line.
     
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  5. tommoore

    tommoore

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    I've noticed this to. Though my biggest winge is the whole start process leaves you 12-15 seconds back to start with. Even if AI was good, you'd need a car with 6 seconds a lap minimum advantage to win a 2 lap race. Is it that hard to qualify and start properly from a grid?
    At the moment it's just a formality of winning races to easily, and being no fun. So basicly a remake of forza 4
     
  6. nascar49

    nascar49

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    The 15 minute race's are the same way, 1st/2nd/3rd place had about a 15 sec lead, and then around the 2-3 min mark, only behind about a second .

    I am noticing this happens at almost every race and every track

    This tells me that PD is well aware that the system is flawed, and they know that in most races that the "chase the rabbit" will not let the player win unless they slow down the A.I. for the last few laps to let the player catch up
     
    Alss likes this.
  7. Third Reign

    Third Reign

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    While I generally agree that standing starts and a more balanced field of opponents would benefit the GT series and reduce the need for blatant slowing of the AI, that FM5 video was not very convincing in terms of what you actually want.

    There is a "oh crap" rewind button...Never seen that in my car.
    The driver was using a tuned version vs stock opponents, he was clearly out-accelerating everyone, and not due to line.
    AI drives like maniacs, almost every second opponent flew off the track...
    Race two...I don't know the format that was supposed to be used there, but Ceeds vs a Holden muscle?
    The last race seems to be the only one actually playing the argument well, so the AI seemed to be able to defend, but in turn seemed to outpower the player quite a bit. But these types of moments do happen with the rubberband GT6 AI as well (try 550pp Championship with a stock Megan Trophy vs both GT2 BMWs up front)

    What we all secretly want is a field of opponents that are clones of yourself in pace that can be raced after a qualification session, where the grid is split by less than a second. Sadly PD can't program 5million different AIs and a large portion of the users are far from the pace that a real enthusiast are capable off. Have a game that the masses buy and the enthusiasts whine about or a game that enthusiasts love and in turn doesn't sell? I sure would love an enthusiasts game, but GT6 can become this once the online activity gets fully rolling in terms of private racing series.
     
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  8. qsh86_GT

    qsh86_GT

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    First of all hello to you everyone. I'm new in this fotrum.
    I was reading this forum for a while but this thread convinced me to register.

    I agree with you all that the AI is very bad and the "chase rabbit" form of races and slowing down by AI drivers to let you win is destroying the whole fun with the career mode. This is in almost every race I have driven in.

    I had a nice race in ib for FR cars on Bathurst. I was driving NSX '90 and one of the AI drivers was driving NSX-R starting around 8th place. He was driving like crazy (in good way), overtaking everyone in front of him to get to the 1st place, then I had a nice battle with him for the win. My conclusion is why not mix the grid, instead giving pole position to the fastest car. We would have more close battles in front of our eyes, and the car in front would not have so much advantage. Then the "slowing down effect" would not be necessary.
     
    Alss likes this.
  9. ShortAznGuy

    ShortAznGuy

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    It happened to me while racing on Bathurst. I turned off all the aids and spun out three times in the five lap race and I still won.
     
    Alss likes this.
  10. GranTurismoFive

    GranTurismoFive

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    What is wrong with this game?!!!!!!!!!
     
  11. stb155

    stb155

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    I dont think a AI slider would work so well, most newcomers would set it to 100% straight away (because no one wants to admit he is not fast enough) and keep complaining that it is to difficult.

    They should do the balancing somewhere in the background, for example by looking at the license test times (and looking at how often you had to retry for gold), by this it should be possible to roughly split up players in 3 groups.

    Or they should just let you select on wich position you want to start, that would propably be the most easily fix.
    (Default somewhere in the middle)

    Than people can decide what they want:
    Lot of overtaking, start behind with a fast car
    Close race, start up front with a equal car.

    And mixing the opponents more randomly sounds like a great idea.
    (They should make a button to rearrange the opponents randomly in the pre-race screen)



    But this rubberband AI is the worst case and brakes immersion completley.
     
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  12. qsh86_GT

    qsh86_GT

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    The next thing that I hate about the "slowing down" effect by AI, is that it completely removes the need for cars modifications, while you can win the race with almost every stock car that you choose. Now tuning is only to go faster and win races even more easly...... That's sad...
     
  13. Aria

    Aria

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    Not necessarily. If you use lower PP car and you overtake the leader too soon, bot goes mad and is going to overtake you on straight. Then you have to block like crazy because the bot has a lot more power.
     
  14. bigspleen

    bigspleen (Banned)

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    Total BS.
     
  15. Gabe Logan

    Gabe Logan

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    I agree. With the present Ai system and rolling starts, and no way of adjusting Ai speed, it is the only way it can work.

    My argument, is that this system sux... it needs an overhaul. Adjustable Ai strength and standing starts - indeed, like most other driving games / sims.
     
    Alss likes this.
  16. Kratos_Q8

    Kratos_Q8

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    it got released on ps3 instead of ps4 .. i remember alot of people wanted the game on ps3 i hop you guys are happy now with this broken game so far
     
  17. Crowood

    Crowood

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    Do you own a PS4? Do you actually know how great it is? Did you ever compare the features a PS3 has and what the current PS4 offers? (a friend of mine owns a PS4)

    I am happy GT6 came to PS3, because at the moment, there is nothing that would make me buy a current PS4.

    On Topic: From the "national a" races onward, the ai gets more competitiv. That is what i experianced so far.
     
  18. stb155

    stb155

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    How do you know ?

    I am one of those people who turn off all aids and set everything to sim/pro on every new game i get.
    And then struggle to adapt for the first, few hours, but after that is is 10x more rewarding.

    PD seem to think the same way, or why they force on Skid recovery on all events ?

    And how would better hardware improve the AI or gameplay ?
    I bet it would be the same rolling start 12th position 3 laps BS on PS4, just better looking and smoother running.

    They don't need more hardware power, they need some imagination/creativity !
     
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  19. Alss

    Alss

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    269
    Ok just to highlight how bad this really is ive just ran a little test:

    Classic sportcar series Race 3

    Silverstone GP Circuit 2 laps

    I was running a A110 1600s 1972 the lead car was a E-type 1961

    Now at the start I let all the cars go and sat there for 30 seconds before pulling of and then went and unintentionally spun it on the second corner resulting in my doing a 180 finishing in the gravel yet despite all this I still won the race by 3 seconds .

    Now this to me be it a game for casuals or not is just simply crazy , as it stands at the moment as much as I like the game on the whole the career section is just a total waste of time and a complete disheartening experience .

    Im seriously thinking about shelving the game in the vain hope that PD or a member of the development team monitor these forums and address this AI issue , I have also played the previous GT games even did a few laps on 5 this morning and although there AI is still rather lacking its nowhere near as ridiculous as the AI in GT6 .

    Like I say none of what I write is in hatetred of the game I am truly a GT fan and all can be backed up by you yourselfs doing your own observations and or checking the live timing feeds.

    Please PD if you are reading these threads regarding your AI can you address this widely felt issue , its not just being discussed on this forum but across many others.
    I
     
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  20. groovymood

    groovymood

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    I asked a guy at my local store (a friend of mine) to dig into the store's archives and compare the preorders they had for the last two gt games.

    The results... gt5 - more than 250 preorders
    gt6 - less than 100

    My theory is that the casual gamer who bought gt5 back in 2010 will not buy another gt game in 2013 in the same system.
    GT6 has been bought mostly by the hardcore racing gamers or by the newcomers who weren't old enough in 2010 to be interested in a racing game.

    I think that PD must reconsider and offer a more challenging AI to the real supporters of the series.
     
  21. DonZonda

    DonZonda

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    1,680
    Location:
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    I noticed it yesterday the first time at the Japanese Race Events in iB. I was driving a GT-R Black Edition on Suzuka. 4 Laps. In the front was a Lexus LFA which quickly was ahead of all the others. When I finally got it in the 3rd Lap it was glued to my rear bumper! No matter how fast I were it never go off me anymore. So first it waited for me and when I passed it that magic magnetic mode turned on and I couldnt get rid of it more then 1-2 seconds anymore when it was first 15 ahead.... I was like huh?!
     
  22. Conza

    Conza Premium

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    1,497
    Location:
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    I was actually going to post a similar thread - so well done OP!

    Completely true, can second the results, I've nerfed my Alfa Romeo Mito down to 50% of its power, 200kgs ballast, and still won races in the FF challenge/series (B licence section?).

    My only difference, is I want to earn the credits, so I still spend a certain amount of time driving, and if I drive 'competitive' (or similar speed) cars, I generally win by 15-20 seconds - I can't be the only one - if I nerf, its by maybe a few seconds, or a few tenths if I go to top gear and just block them all from passing on the final straight.

    Licence tests are hard though, getting my S Licence wasn't a piece of cake like most of the others.
     
    Alss likes this.
  23. RacingManiac

    RacingManiac

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    1,382
    There seem to be some artificial rubber banding going on in this....I raced the one-make Miata race in National A event. 5 lap race and in the first 2 lap I made my way up to 3rd and was not making much head way at this point on the leading 2 cars. ~10 sec. Then all of a sudden on lap 3 I made up the gap in 1 lap, then passed them in lap 4, spun on the exit of turn 1 because the AI tapped me(that was new), fell to 6th. Expecting them to pull away but didn't, caught up and re passed all of them to win the race in lap 5. My "normal lap"(not spinning) are not more than 1-1.5 from fastest to slowest, so no reason why they would all of a sudden lose a huge chunk of the lead when the same lap time before didn't....
     
    Alss likes this.
  24. NOSWaster

    NOSWaster

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    Location:
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    I was in a Veyron on Streets of Willow in arcade. The AI was set to Professional on 10 aggression. For the whole race I'm around 15-17 seconds behind a FXX until about 2 laps to go in the race. The gap just suddenly starts shaving off second by second, and with half a lap to go I overtook the FXX. My lap times, funny enough, were actually worse than all the prior ones... yet I gained 17 seconds over 1.5 laps.

    Now explain that one to me.
     
  25. RC45

    RC45 (Banned)

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    The game is clearly about cars with the races thrown in to regulate the accumulation of said cars.

    Would you prefer that you lose every race that you did not tackle like a crazed Senna clone and have to grind for hours, days weeks just to be able to win a race?

    I wanted t see what all the fuss was about the XBoner and Fortza 5was about (I had not bothered because there is no gated shifter/clutch for XBone yet) - now that the TM TX Wheel arrived I popped over to the local Game Stop and picked up an XBone and FM5 and I hooked up the TX wheel to the TM500RS pedals with the load sensor mod and was ready to try.

    Back to back FM5 vs GT6 neither is 'perfect' as a racing game as BOTH are centered around the CARS not the racing.

    For comparison I fired up the PC rig and did some SimRaceway to remind myself the best 'AI' is other humans, not AI. Then I fired up GTR2 and did a full qualify, warm-up 20 lap race in Porsche GT3 Cup cars.

    The final conclusion?

    I am actually glad both GT and FM are car centric not race centric.

    There are enough pure racing games out there, GT and FM are car games with some racing thrown in to temper the car collecting progression.

    I bet if PD change the AI to a procession of Sennas the same list of folks will still complain that its impossible to progress now ;)

    BTW, I saw some AI cars bunny hopping and doing endos under braking as well. Seems to not just be GT physics doing it.

    Sure, this system does suck a little (a lot maybe?) but at least we get to drive some pretty accurately modeled cars on some pretty accurately modeled circuits for less than the cost of tank of petrol - and all you have to do is put the disk in and click the [X] button - no fussing with drivers and mods and textures and LOD's etc. etc.;)
     
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  26. RacingManiac

    RacingManiac

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    1,382
    Thing is though I'd want consistent AI, not weird fast and slow and fast AI. You can make the race challenging yourself by running lower PP and worse tires. But only if they are performing at a consistent level, which old GT games seems to, but now they don't...

    I am getting my online stuff in weekly, but raceable AI will still be nice...
     
  27. Astro_BS-AS

    Astro_BS-AS

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    Location:
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    Hey, guys, a question. I´ve read that GT6 has some kind of progression system built-in. Wich level are you on?

    I know it´s not like GT5, but I´ve noticed that many people say that the races (offline) get harder the more you race. So... easy to win in the first 10 races or easy to win with 200 races done too?

    I´m inclining to believe that that´s the case. With 20 hours on GT6 the game will get harder. Some seasonals in GT5 were really hard when you drive w/o any aids. I´d like to see some videos of the "worst AI ever" that some are mentioning.
     
  28. groovymood

    groovymood

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    I just fired up GT5 and entered a 3 lap race in high speed ring with a 580pp ferrari 458 italia.
    I won easily and the car that came 2nd had a total time of 3:44.

    Then I switched to a 530pp cusco dunlop subaru impreza '08.
    I finished 6th and the winner had a total time of 3:46.
    No rubber banding there...
     
  29. Alss

    Alss

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    I did much the same this morning , I run the turbo challenge on GT5 with a 100 pp less car and lost big time plus I noticed there was no lead car chasing all the cars were evenly spaced for the most part , when I re entered with a mid pp range car I had a battle all the way round with a first finish but unlike gt6 cars 2-3-4 were within car length of each other , so regardless of what some might said gt6 is not following the norm gt series and really doesn't have to be like it is at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
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  30. Aria

    Aria

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    Whatever. It shouldn't be that way either. I don't believe this rubber band madness just disappears.
     
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