ATTENTION PD! How The AI Should Work In Gran Turismo (OP updated 4th April)

[VBR]

The Idea:

If you added Practice & Qualification to Career Mode in Gran Turismo, then programmed the game to work out the average lap time from the players fastest ones during Practice, the game could then automatically adjust the AI drivers pace to match the speed of the player for the race.

This way, the game would tailor the speed of the AI drivers to the player, & there would be no need for the annoying rubber band effect which is ruining the GT series for many of us. Rubber banding could still be included as an option, which could be turned on or off by the player & have it's strength adjusted (in increments of 1 to 10). With rubber banding off, if the player makes a mistake & spins out they will never be able to catch the leaders & win. This will give Career mode replay value, a reason play the event again & not just grind it.

In the early Amateur races there could also be a larger speed differential ratio so that some of the AI drivers are slower & some faster (as fast as the player). This would simulate the different speeds of drivers you get in real world beginners events, making the races challenging yet still winnable. As the player moves on to the more pro events, this differential would gradually decrease & the AI drivers would be on a much more similar pace, simulating the competitive fields of drivers found in the higher echelons of motorsport. If the player wants an extra challenge, there could also be an option to expand the differential ratio & make some of the AI drivers slightly faster. If they want less of a challenge, or want to compete against an AI driver that's been set to their pace but that's been given a faster car, they could make the AI slightly slower.


Possible Problems:

1) When recording & working out the players average lap times from Practice, the game would have to disregard laps where the player had made mistakes or not yet tuned the car to it's full potential, this would have to be accounted for somehow.

2) The fastest AI drivers in GT games are too slow to give many players sufficient competition (like in GT5's 1 make races), you'd have to find someway of making them even faster.

3) Players could sandbag by slowing down during Practice in an effort to make the AI slower during the race. One solution would be to disqualify a player from participating in the race if their Qualification time is significantly faster than their best Practice times.

4) Players might want to skip Practice & Qualification, & they should be given the option to do that. One solution would be to set the AI for the first race in a championship quite high, work out the players average lap time from that first race, & then use it to set the AI drivers speed for the next race. If players skip Practice, & Qualifying, they'd no longer be allowed to tune between races, this would stop them from getting around the auto AI setting.


Any thoughts regarding the idea? Any potential problems with the idea, & possible solutions? All constructive criticism is very welcome!

 

[Squanto]

In addition I still hope they are eventually going to use real driver data for their AI-drivers.
They should have loads of data ... and not just AI data that follow the exact same line every round.
(preferably with proper braking points)

ByTheWay : Nice suggestion @VBR !

 

[starknight97]

Who won't say yes to this? If PD listen to this suggestion they could make the best AI of any game but I highly doubt they will ever do.

 

[Wide Boy]

As you say rubber banding should be an option.
Boost or whatever its called is & its the same thing in reverse really.
The game should adjust difficulty between races
Keep losing it gets easier after 3 or 4 attempts.
Keep winning it gets harder
Adjustment probably based on time difference between you & the first AI car.

Arcade mode should be fully configurable,
You should be able to build races from the ground level up & save them.
Everything from opponents, AI level, start type etc etc should be able to be set by the player.
Suggested elsewhere a pick list for opponents would be nice, game chooses from them to add a bit of variety to the field.
For a 12 car field select say up to 20 cars that could participate & see what turns up.
Some could be flagged as always take part & some as rarely take part to give a bit more control.

Once you have completed career mode arcade should also give prize money.
Doesn't have to be loads could be as simple as XX amount per km.
Now instead of grinding the few races you like you can race for the enjoyment in the races you made & still rack up a bit towards your next car.

 

[86Debris86]

In GT5 Prologue, there was a slider to control how fast the AI were, it went from 1 to 100 if I remember correctly. If PD added practice & qualification to Career Mode in GT, then programmed the game to work out your average lap time from the fastest ones, the game could then automatically adjust the AI speed to match.

This way, the game would automatically tailor the speed of the AI to the player, they'd be no need for the stupid rubber banding effect which is ruining this series for many of us. Rubber banding could still be included as an option, which could be turned on or off by the player & have it's strength adjusted (in increments of 1 to 10). With rubber banding off, if you made a mistake & spin out, you will never be able to catch the leaders & win. This will give Career mode replay value, a reason play the event again & not feel like you're just grinding it.

In the early Amateur races, there would be a large differential ratio so that some AI are slower & some faster (as fast as you). This would simulate the different speeds of drivers you get in real world beginners events, making the races challenging yet still winnable. As you move up to higher & more pro events, this differential would gradually decrease, the AI drivers would be on a much more similar pace, simulating the competitive fields of drivers found in the higher echelons of motorsport.

Possible problems; even when the AI in GT5 Prologue was set to 100, it still wasn't fast enough for some players, so PD would need to find a way of making it faster. When recording & working out the players average lap times, the game would have to disregard laps where the player had made mistakes, this would have to be accounted for too.


Any thoughts to add on the idea?

My short answer would be yes. It would certainly help and would be a step in the right direction. I like it. 👍

I would like to add though that my main quarrel with how the AI drive isn't their speed as such, it's their awareness.

It's the way they behave in accordance to the players whereabouts; frequently slamming into the side of you as you draw alongside and spinning you out after a successful pass.

In addition to what you say about matching the players average lap times I think they need programming to take alternative lines when the player is close. To attack and defend.

I'm so tired of being squeezed onto the grass every time I go around the outside because the AI has no knowledge of my existence and just assumes it's normal line.

It all comes down to the sense of "racing." At the moment all we have in the AI right now is a bunch of rolling road blocks whose sole purpose, it would seem, is to stop us catching the "rabbit" who has to slow down on the last lap because the system doesn't work. How this was, and still is, acceptable to PD is still beyond me.

What I think we desperately need to increase the challenge and indeed that sense of racing is AI that defends it's position without actually blocking like it does now sometimes. AI that will make you defend your position because they can overtake you (currently the AI can only ever get past via slipstream or when the player makes a mistake). This would give the player an actual race instead of an obstacle course with a time trial towards the end.

This, along with your suggestion, is how I think the AI should work. It's the only way qualifying would work. Otherwise the player would probably qualify first nearly every time and just drive off leaving the field behind, catch up to the back of the field and have to go through the experience of moving through them like we have to now at the start.

Even if the "rubber banding" had gone and they (AI) were matching our times, without these changes I think it would be much the same as it is now, only faster and with the moving-through-the-field-bit moved to different part of the race.

Apologies for the wall of text but the AI is my main gripe with GT.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think the ultimate AI solution is one where you qualify for a race and the AI is derived through you own laptime and racing line. Combined with a difficulty slider, the AI will always be around the same pace as you providing a good racing experience. Short of that, the suggestions in the OP would be far superior to what we have now for sure.

 

[VBR]

@Johnnypenso - Yeah, kind of like the Drivatar that FM5 uses. Anyone tried it?

@86Debris86 - They'd need to sort out their general behaviour as well, like you said. I can't remember them being this bad in GT5 Prologue, or in GT4. Maybe I need to dust of my PS2 & double check.

 

[86Debris86]

I don't remember it always being like this but that could just be warm nostalgia clouding my judgement.

Can't comment on the Drivatar thing though. I only ever play "the other game" at a friends place and not that often either.

 

[Doodle]

Even though I only do my racing online, I wouldn't mind the suggestion @VBR has made.

 

[super_gt]

In GT5 Prologue, there was a slider to control how fast the AI were, it went from 1 to 100 if I remember correctly. If PD added practice & qualification to Career Mode in GT, then programmed the game to work out your average lap time from the fastest ones, the game could then automatically adjust the AI speed to match.

This way, the game would automatically tailor the speed of the AI to the player, they'd be no need for the stupid rubber banding effect which is ruining this series for many of us. Rubber banding could still be included as an option, which could be turned on or off by the player & have it's strength adjusted (in increments of 1 to 10). With rubber banding off, if you made a mistake & spin out, you will never be able to catch the leaders & win. This will give Career mode replay value, a reason play the event again & not feel like you're just grinding it.

In the early Amateur races, there would be a large differential ratio so that some AI are slower & some faster (as fast as you). This would simulate the different speeds of drivers you get in real world beginners events, making the races challenging yet still winnable. As you move up to higher & more pro events, this differential would gradually decrease, the AI drivers would be on a much more similar pace, simulating the competitive fields of drivers found in the higher echelons of motorsport.

Possible problems; even when the AI in GT5 Prologue was set to 100, it still wasn't fast enough for some players, so PD would need to find a way of making it faster. When recording & working out the players average lap times, the game would have to disregard laps where the player had made mistakes, this would have to be accounted for too.


Any thoughts to add on the idea?

You should also post this idea in the GT Suggestions 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

 

[86Debris86]

You should also post this idea in the GT Suggestions 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

I second this motion.

 

[Dean]

It'd be a good addition to the game, agreed. I can't really think of any negative things about it either, to be honest. 👍

 

[Wide Boy]

It's the way they behave in accordance to the players whereabouts; frequently slamming into the side of you as you draw alongside and spinning you out after a successful pass.

This is just a side thought but if the AI was driving at closer to your level there would be less bumping & banging.
Main area they need to improve to help even more is breaking to early.
You end up sometimes taking emergency avoidance because they break earlier than expected.
Also stops the AI slamming into you because you went up the inside from miles back, in RL it probably had every right to do that as you were not alongside at corner entry.
Sure it should then try to avoid you but cars bang in RL racing at times with lunges down the inside, its the overtaking drivers responsibility to avoid it by deciding there is not enough space.
Lunges should be rare not standard fare, drive like they are another player & you get less barging.

We would need longer races as the passing would be more realistic as in challenging. Sweeping through 90% of the field in a couple of laps does not happen often. You would be using more realistic overtaking spots not just catching & overtaking anywhere.

 

[86Debris86]

This is just a side thought but if the AI was driving at closer to your level there would be less bumping & banging.
Main area they need to improve to help even more is breaking to early.
You end up sometimes taking emergency avoidance because they break earlier than expected.
Also stops the AI slamming into you because you went up the inside from miles back, in RL it probably had every right to do that as you were not alongside at corner entry.
Sure it should then try to avoid you but cars bang in RL racing at times with lunges down the inside, its the overtaking drivers responsibility to avoid it by deciding there is not enough space.
Lunges should be rare not standard fare, drive like they are another player & you get less barging.

We would need longer races as the passing would be more realistic as in challenging. Sweeping through 90% of the field in a couple of laps does not happen often. You would be using more realistic overtaking spots not just catching & overtaking anywhere.

I'm sorry but you've made the assumption I don't know how to overtake there.

I'm not sending it up the inside from miles back. I'm just behind the AI before the braking zone and I'm passing under braking. When I get alongside- BAM!- AI into the side of me as they try to hit the apex I'm already occupying. They don't know you're there. It's a fundamental flaw in the programming of how the AI detects the players location.

Them travelling faster around the track at the players pace doesn't address this particular problem. They will still occasionally drive into you.

And I realise that collisions are part of racing but that kind of collision is very different to the type the AI are causing at the moment.

I agree though the way the AI brakes needs addressing too. They brake way too early making it too easy to get past.

 

[Wide Boy]

They don't know you're there

I would say that's not strictly correct, they do but there is little they can do about it, detection area is probably to small.
Not definitive by any means but tried running round Spa alongside AI on the path they want to be on then looking at replay from external view.

Straights or near as you can see them keep trying to nudge over but not hitting you.
The odd time I managed to stay inside on a wide corner (its harder than you think trying to pace the AI car) it seemed to make a slight effort to avoid me. Do mean slight but most it would do is brush against me or avoid by running on track edge.
However most cases it makes a glancing blow as turns into the corner with no attempt at avoidance. Simple programing I would guess once its going for the apex its committed. It cant change its line & still make the corner.

I did get tapped once by a car that should have been able to avoid me as I cut in front of it.

Conclusion it does know your there but only within a small area round the car, like a game meter so most times it can do nothing about it.

You just have to pretend its a British Touring Car race back in the days when it was okay to bump & barge.

 

[VBR]

You should also post this idea in the GT Suggestions.

I second this motion.

I posted the idea in the 'Better AI Competition' thread with a link back to this thread, as I didn't think another AI thread in the suggestions forum was really needed.

 

[86Debris86]

I would say that's not strictly correct, they do but there is little they can do about it, detection area is probably to small.
Not definitive by any means but tried running round Spa alongside AI on the path they want to be on then looking at replay from external view.

Straights or near as you can see them keep trying to nudge over but not hitting you.
The odd time I managed to stay inside on a wide corner (its harder than you think trying to pace the AI car) it seemed to make a slight effort to avoid me. Do mean slight but most it would do is brush against me or avoid by running on track edge.
However most cases it makes a glancing blow as turns into the corner with no attempt at avoidance. Simple programing I would guess once its going for the apex its committed. It cant change its line & still make the corner.

I did get tapped once by a car that should have been able to avoid me as I cut in front of it.

Conclusion it does know your there but only within a small area round the car, like a game meter so most times it can do nothing about it.

You just have to pretend its a British Touring Car race back in the days when it was okay to bump & barge.

I'd agree with that. The first chicane (Rettifilo) at Monza is a good place to see this behaviour as the AI drives into you if you're on the inside into the right hander, instead of avoiding or stopping.

It drives me mad. MAAAD! The AI is my Dirty Fork... *sticks meat cleaver into table*

I posted the idea in the 'Better AI Competition' thread with a link back to this thread, as I didn't think another AI thread in the suggestions forum was really needed.

An amalgamation of several suggestions about the AI is definitely needed. There're some very good ideas around but no one single suggestion to change the AI is quite good enough. I'm not sure how the owners of the individual ideas/suggestions would feel about a merging of suggestions or if it's even feasible.

If PD listen to us (oh look a flying pig passing a blue moon being hit by lightning for a second time! ) then they're going to have to look at every comment on the AI in order to fix it. Just making them aware or just making them faster or just fixing their brakes won't cut it. They need a complete overhaul in my opinion.

 

[Wide Boy]

I'd agree with that. The first chicane (Rettifilo) at Monza is a good place to see this behaviour as the AI drives into you if you're on the inside into the right hander, instead of avoiding or stopping.

To some degree this is to be expected
1) If you are inside him as you enter the breaking area he should fall back & follow you in.

2) If you move inside well into the breaking area you have left him nowhere to go.
Cant break hard enough to tuck in behind & is already committed so either
Runs wide most likely off the track, possibly very wide because you are on the inside so on a bad line to turn sharply & stay on the inside of the corner.
Option B is to squeeze you as its the only way to make the corner.

Case 2 the onus is on the car overtaking to not cause an accident by leaving the car being overtaken no place to go.
Passing safely through the corner but having bad exit speed once you have cleared the apex due to being on the inside is fine, that's basically a block pass & they can avoid you or attempt to drive back round you.

Try going round that corner on the outside of another car to see why the AI has trouble doing it.

For sure the AI should try to do a late apex turn in to avoid you but on slow sharp corners there is very little margin to adjust your line.

 

[86Debris86]

To some degree this is to be expected
1) If you are inside him as you enter the breaking area he should fall back & follow you in.

2) If you move inside well into the breaking area you have left him nowhere to go.
Cant break hard enough to tuck in behind & is already committed so either
Runs wide most likely off the track, possibly very wide because you are on the inside so on a bad line to turn sharply & stay on the inside of the corner.
Option B is to squeeze you as its the only way to make the corner.

Case 2 the onus is on the car overtaking to not cause an accident by leaving the car being overtaken no place to go.
Passing safely through the corner but having bad exit speed once you have cleared the apex due to being on the inside is fine, that's basically a block pass & they can avoid you or attempt to drive back round you.

Try going round that corner on the outside of another car to see why the AI has trouble doing it.

For sure the AI should try to do a late apex turn in to avoid you but on slow sharp corners there is very little margin to adjust your line.

Again you're absolutely right. It's difficult for me to adequately describe exactly the situation I mean and I've probably used a bad example in that corner.

Still, even with nowhere to go the AI should not drive through you. Hitting me is fine if I have made a questionable pass but actually continuing as if they haven't hit anything and continuing to hit me as they barge me out of the way as if I'm not there is daft.

It's the contact when I've made a perfectly reasonable move, usually a block pass as you describe above, or when I have indeed left enough room for the car I've overtaken and it still hits me that disappoints me.

 

[noseknows36]

This is fantastic idea. I hate having rolling starts and having to run through the entire field EVERY TIME. Plus, there is a certain lack of fulfillment when winning because I know the AI cars are slowing down significantly on the last lap or 2 in order to give me a chance to win.

 

[FRoSTeD]

I always had the thought that they should take data from online races. Gather as much data about each cars modification level, tuning parameters and track, then keep records of what setup was quickest around whatever particular track. Then they could program AI more like realistic humans, factor in human reactions (aggressive, holding line regardless of other player, letting up to let a faster driver around, etc etc.) some driver error and I'd imagine the AI could be mind blowing.

I always just thought it was a shame that all this data we consistently produce while racing online goes to waste, when it could go to making the game that much better offline in the right hands.

 

[Muxlee]

@the OP
To be honest after "studying" the AI and the game in general I don't think there is much interactivity/proximity programmed into the AI. They seem oblivious of the player, they are not AI in the true sense they are just sprites on rails . I haven't tried it but I cant imagine there being any more than three or four programmed lines for each race. I think it would be a major task for PD to implement an Intelligent AI with all the (unnecessary) graphics overhead, however not impossible, as they access to so much gameplay data.

 

[86Debris86]

@the OP
To be honest after "studying" the AI and the game in general I don't think there is much interactivity/proximity programmed into the AI. They seem oblivious of the player, they are not AI in the true sense they are just sprites on rails . I haven't tried it but I cant imagine there being any more than three or four programmed lines for each race. I think it would be a major task for PD to implement an Intelligent AI with all the (unnecessary) graphics overhead, however not impossible, as they access to so much gameplay data.

What he said.

 

[Blood*Specter]

If the AI adapts to player speed some players will never get better.
The answer is to set an authentic pace for each AI car. Then do away with the rolling starts. Make the player run against an AI programmed to win.

The problem is SONY is afraid some users will quit playing if they don't win the race's.

 

[86Debris86]

If the AI adapts to player speed some players will never get better.

Hopefully that wouldn't be the case if say, in a 10 car field, the first 3 AI cars were faster than you, the next 3 around your own pace and the last 3 slightly slower.

You'd get faster and faster at each track as you set a time, the AI matches that time like above, and you're pushed by the slightly faster AI in the subsequent race. Next time at that track you may set the kind of time you were doing in the race you were being pushed in and so the process repeats.

The point at which the AI is pushing too hard for you (or if it's not pushing hard enough) would be the ideal time to adjust the difficulty.

 

[VBR]

If the AI adapts to player speed some players will never get better.
The answer is to set an authentic pace for each AI car. Then do away with the rolling starts. Make the player run against an AI programmed to win.

The problem is SONY is afraid some users will quit playing if they don't win the race's.

Many players are already at their best, & couldn't get faster even if they tried. Players who are new to the series would get faster anyway as they learned the tracks etc, & the AI would then get faster automatically so they still had a challenge.

Hopefully that wouldn't be the case if say, in a 10 car field, the first 3 AI cars were faster than you, the next 3 around your own pace and the last 3 slightly slower.

You'd get faster and faster at each track as you set a time, the AI matches that time like above, and you're pushed by the slightly faster AI in the subsequent race. Next time at that track you may set the kind of time you were doing in the race you were being pushed in and so the process repeats.

The point at which the AI is pushing too hard for you (or if it's not pushing hard enough) would be the ideal time to adjust the difficulty.

If the races were unwinnable, I think that would put a lot of casual gamers off. Not a good idea imo. However, if there was another option to make some of the cars a little faster than you, to give some extra competition, then that'd be a great option to have.

 

[gambleboyen]

Good idea. Main hurdle would be PD having to "admit" they had it wrong all along.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Along with AI being adjustable to your own Q speed, I think they need a "strength of field" type of adjustment which determines the spread of speed from the front to the back of the grid. Knowing PD, they'd make this change but it would only apply to the front AI and the rest of the field would be left in the dust. A 0-100 slider for the strength of the field, with 100 being a strong field front to back with perhaps a 1 second spread and 0 basically being what we have now..that type of idea.

 

[Wide Boy]

Along with AI being adjustable to your own Q speed, I think they need a "strength of field" type of adjustment which determines the spread of speed from the front to the back of the grid. Knowing PD, they'd make this change but it would only apply to the front AI and the rest of the field would be left in the dust. A 0-100 slider for the strength of the field, with 100 being a strong field front to back with perhaps a 1 second spread and 0 basically being what we have now..that type of idea.

Nice idea, of course letting you chose the cars that participate would alleviate the need for it.
Races should not be unwinnable but they should be challenging.
We are all different but the main reason I want to win rather than have a good race is for the extra money due to the way the game is set up.
Had a look I win 52% of my races because its more fun to participate in a car its hard to win with.

 

[Wide Boy]

Here is another way you could action having the AI adjust to your level.

Have optional qualifying for each race.
Have a button to lock or unlock AI adjusting its speed based on qualifying.
Unlocked the AI speeds up or slows down on your grid position.
Locked the AI will stay at that level for that specific race till you unlock it.
Cant see why there cant be a little slider to let you make minor adjustments to.

Nice options would also be
Top 6 qualifiers reversed or randomised.
You can elect to start further down the field than you qualify, don't want to start in the top 3 all the time I want a race.

Depth of field as mentioned in another post could be done simply by having races where you set the minimum & maximum PP value.