*Avoid if you don't like people moaning* Rant: My GTS frustrations and disappointments

I'd have to. I bought GT3 back in the day, before I even had dial up internet, without knowing anything about it at all other than it was the new game on the new system. :ouch:

I do remember being disappointed about the lack of content as well!
Dude, it is 2017. You did not have access to information back then like you do now. There is a pole on this site, where 10 % of participants said that they didn't try the demo. So 90 %percent of pole participants downloaded 43 gb demo and tested it.
 
Dude, it is 2017. You did not have access to information back then like you do now. There is a pole on this site, where 10 % of participants said that they didn't try the demo. So 90 %percent of pole participants downloaded 43 gb demo and tested it.


...90 percent of pole participants. hehe.

OK, so my inner 14 year old kicked in. It happens sometimes.
 
Dude, it is 2017. You did not have access to information back then like you do now. There is a pole on this site, where 10 % of participants said that they didn't try the demo. So 90 %percent of pole participants downloaded 43 gb demo and tested it.
I did. That was the age of the monthly games magazines. I did tend not to read anything I'd think of as a spoler though.

A million people downloaded the demo according to Kaz. That's not by any stretch everyone who would buy the game.
 
Dude, it is 2017. You did not have access to information back then like you do now. There is a pole on this site, where 10 % of participants said that they didn't try the demo. So 90 %percent of pole participants downloaded 43 gb demo and tested it.

How many people from actually completed that poll?
 
I did. That was the age of the monthly games magazines. I did tend not to read anything I'd think of as a spoler though.

A million people downloaded the demo according to Kaz. That's not by any stretch everyone who would buy the game.
In a game's life time, true.
But how many copies have been sold from day one, until the day the reviews start coming in? That could be close to that milion people.

How many people from actually completed that poll?
Relatively small number, but it still shows the trend. And it is from gtplanet..where the racing crowd is at.
 
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In a game's life time, true.
But how many copies have been sold from day one, until the day the reviews start coming in? That could be close to that milion people.

Using the poll you quoted which is not representative of the GTS purchases as whole, but as you’ve brought it up, it seems highly unlikely that this is case.

Relatively small number, but it still shows the trend. And it is from gtplanet..where the racing crowd is at.
It seems you’ve answered it for yourself.

Have a look at where the racing crowd is at as you put it, how many members does GTP have, compare that to sales figures of previous iterations, it is a minority, the trend as you put it is skewed and only shows the results specific to GTP and no where near representative.
 
Using the poll you quoted which is not representative of the GTS purchases as whole, but as you’ve brought it up, it seems highly unlikely that this is case.


It seems you’ve answered it for yourself.

Have a look at where the racing crowd is at as you put it, how many members does GTP have, compare that to sales figures of previous iterations, it is a minority, the trend as you put it is skewed and only shows the results specific to GTP and no where near representative.
But as i see it,the gt planet members are the ones posting on this topic, so it felt natural to use this pole. Can you direct me to a more informative pole?
 
The average buying demographic of gamers, the trend shown by the trophy achievements earned are all very, very strong indicators of this.

It's not just GT either, it's a trend across all racing titles, as I discuss in detail here.



As such the evidence supporting my position is quite significant, and as I have already explained you have taken an outlier and attempted to turn that into the norm.

In doing so it's not myself that would need to be providing evidence to support a position (I already have ands it's open to anyone to review), but you.

No, you don't prove that by uploading a video of you. You say they are majority non racing fans and you know that's not true unless you got the numbers on it. But you still be trying to say it.
 
Imari: I see your point but I just don't think these things matter. Above 20mph its alright, below 20mph I haven't sat there in a race scenario and gone "thats ridiculous". I haven't even noticed this 20mph changeover at all (it may not even be there). It's all plenty good enough for what it aims to do. Other sims won't model the torque differences due to all that stuff you said, they'll almost certainly be varying it though (faking it).
How do you know other sims are faking it?


I love standing starts, trying to not bog but not spin up too much. I play GT3 (Gr.3) and Brands always has the rear out on the inside. Testing stuff "scientifically" doesn't amount to anything in my opinion. It's the overall experience that counts. All driving models will be faking loads of things at some level.
Why doesn't it amount to anything?

I still have a few reservations too when people talk about what a "sim" should do or not do.
Why?

I remember being involved in PCars 1 and had the old stig working on it, and even he said traditional sims are obsessed with "being on the edge" and end up with harder to drive models compared to real life.
Indeed, and I would agree.

I don't find PC2 or AC hard to drive at all, yet I do find elements of GTS hard to deal with because they don't act in the same way that reality does.
 
But as i see it,the gt planet members are the ones posting on this topic, so it felt natural to use this pole. Can you direct me to a more informative pole?

There isn’t one, but the poll partcipation should tell you that out of 272,000 GTP members even drawing conclusions that are representative of GTP from said poll is a reach.
 
No, you don't prove that by uploading a video of you. You say they are majority non racing fans and you know that's not true unless you got the numbers on it. But you still be trying to say it.
So by your logic that the majority of people own less than ten cars, have not completed even the basic parts of GT life, have driven only a short distance makes them hard core GT fans does it?

I've provided the evidence to support my position, time for you to reciprocate.
 
There isn’t one, but the poll partcipation should tell you that out of 272,000 GTP members even drawing conclusions that are representative of GTP from said poll is a reach.
In the lack of a better source, one must stick to what one has. Do you have a better source of statstical data. Poles around election day (in my country) are conducted on 600 people in a country of 4 milion, and they are fairly good represntationof the final result.
 
How do you know other sims are faking it?
Because to accurately reproduce all the variables involved in all that would be stupid. 80/20 rule kinda thing. Taking all those precious FPS just so the starts can accurately kink to the left or right. Or that each cars TC should be replicated with accuracy.

Like the Rigs of Rods engine, works amazing to replicate loads of things, body torsional stiffness, crash physics, etc, but KILLS performance. There is a reason no one uses it.

Why doesn't it amount to anything?

Because 99.9% of people won't notice or care, I run right at the sharp end most races, the game is a good challenge and seems to reproduce things in a way I'd expect, like tuning the diff to remove oversteer but introduce high speed understeer for when on Endurance low grip slicks (RH), it's not bad.

It's all a balance, and they've left out things they thought were worth leaving out, and did other things with that time. Maybe the tyre model in other areas was failing when it was, in your opinion, better.


Because of the point I made about PCars, I feel people that "know" racing sims, base everything on what other sims feel like, when in-fact most sims were wrong, and made driving harder than IRL, according to the old Stig, I forget his name.

I don't find PC2 or AC hard to drive at all, yet I do find elements of GTS hard to deal with because they don't act in the same way that reality does.

Reality or other "more accepted" sims? This assumes you don't mean the TC or launch side movement, which we've covered.

[EDIT: I'll add though, I can't comment on FFB and pedal configuration]

I also feel the lack of G-Force and restricted FOV mean the sense of speed is lessened, and that we're actually being far more brutal with the car and tyres than we realise.
 
The position that any game is made up of a large percentage of casual fans who only play for a short period of time, and a much smaller percentage of dedicated fans who do stick with it, is supported by the largest data set possible. The trophy system.

The idea that trophies are related to user activity and longevity with a title is insightful, but cannot be entirely accurate. What if I log into GTS every day from launch to the bitter end, take 500,000 scapes photos and do nothing else? Probably a rare occurrence, but so is getting a platinum trophy. So you have two different players and both could be spening the same amount of time. Heck, the scape fiend could ultimately dedicate more time than the platinum achiever.

I believe developers delve more deeply into the data they obtain rather than relying on raw trophy information.
 
I've bought every Grand Turismo game that's been released in the UK and nearly all of them on day of release or earlier. After the Beta and the demo I decided not to buy it.

I knew since Copper Box that it was unlikely I'd buy this but I waited until the demo to make the final call on it. If, and only if, they fix the truly terrible online save issue will I buy it and even then I doubt I'd be willing to part with more than £20 for it. That's have totally unimpressed I am with the direction this series has taken.
Same here, I'm not perpetrated to pay more than 20 quid for it, and even then I'm stretching it as i will only use the livery editor.




Imari: I see your point but I just don't think these things matter. Above 20mph its alright, below 20mph I haven't sat there in a race scenario and gone "thats ridiculous". I haven't even noticed this 20mph changeover at all (it may not even be there). It's all plenty good enough for what it aims to do.
Well these things don't matter, in a game aimed at casuals. But a game that claims to be the real driving simulator and with fans that believe it's the real driving simulator then these things do matter when there are other games out there that do it better.

I have a feeling that the FIA will of wanted it, because of the history of Save File modding.
Yes for sure the FIA demanded it. They also said "hey Kaz. When there's no connection to the serverr, why don't you completely disable livery editor and photomode for ***** and giggles too while you're at it".

No, you don't prove that by uploading a video of you. You say they are majority non racing fans and you know that's not true unless you got the numbers on it. But you still be trying to say it.
I'm pretty sure Scaff said the majority are not hard core racing fans, and not racing fans. And this is clearly true otherwise GT wouldn't outsell other racing games on the same platform by large numbers.
 
It indicates that the in-game TC light likes to come on at various times where you wouldn't expect, this could be for any reason, maybe even as part of the stability management helper and not the TC you're thinking of at all. Making the large assumption this is automatically tyre-model related is unfounded in my opinion.
Stability control was switched off so it has nothing to do with that, its also more prevalent below 20mph and on partial throttle. Nor did I automatically assume it was tyre-model related, that's why I carried out further tests.


Because it really isn't important.
Really having an accurate TC model in a game which features cars (both race and road) that feature TC isn't important?


I meant in-game, in-game its highly likely both tyres will be equal, where the model recreates the result faithfully with the data at hand.
Then as a sim its a poor recreation of reality (which is not what a sim aims to do).


I still think everything you've said is extremely minor
I disagree, but then depends on what you see as a priority in a racing title.

and things will be a trade-off with computing power used by the game engine and graphics, sound, etc.
That I agree, and I personally prefer a balance the other way.


The overall package is largely unaffected by these things, it would be nice sure, but it's GT, it isn't a full sim (it's getting there) and never will be imo (hope I'm wrong). But it's made a good jump here and is a blast.
GT is still around five years behind other sims on the market and while you may find these acceptable compromises, others don't.

Which is why we discuss them, which is kind of the point of a discussion forum on racing titles!

Do all other sims have fuel maps ? GT has fuel maps. While we're talking about it, GT has made a nice focus on fuel/pit strategy, it's a cool new aspect.
Yep and in much more detail.

As far as pit/tyre/fuel stratergy goes PC2 is streets ahead of GTS.

Does GTS allow you to set different pit strategies in advance and change between them on the fly?
Does GTS allow you to change the pit strategy while on track before you pit?
Does GTS allow you to have full manual control over the pit stop, meaning you have to ensure you keep to the pit lane limit, enter the box manually, leave the box manually?

What you see as a cool new aspect, is new for GT only, not for sims as a whole.

Can all other "sims" be called a sim when they might not have fuel maps? I'm being pedantic, but there is more to a game or racing sim, than the tyre model recreating these isolated events.
They do, honestly in terms of the areas that can be simulated in regard to Motorsport, GT is quite a way behind.


EDIT: I don't want to cause offence btw, might sound confrontational but it's not supposed to. No hard feelings :D
It doesn't come across as confrontational, it honestly comes across as defensive.

Because to accurately reproduce all the variables involved in all that would be stupid. 80/20 rule kinda thing. Taking all those precious FPS just so the starts can accurately kink to the left or right. Or that each cars TC should be replicated with accuracy.

Like the Rigs of Rods engine, works amazing to replicate loads of things, body torsional stiffness, crash physics, etc, but KILLS performance. There is a reason no one uses it.
You are aware that a sim exists on the PS4 that runs as well as GTS in terms of frame rate yet manages to do all those things?

It may not look quite as pretty, but it does all of that at 60fps.


Because 99.9% of people won't notice or care, I run right at the sharp end most races, the game is a good challenge and seems to reproduce things in a way I'd expect, like tuning the diff to remove oversteer but introduce high speed understeer for when on Endurance low grip slicks (RH), it's not bad.
Its not bad, but its a long way from the rest of the genre.

It's all a balance, and they've left out things they thought were worth leaving out, and did other things with that time. Maybe the tyre model in other areas was failing when it was, in your opinion, better.
And its a balance I disagree with, a point I am allowed to express.


Because of the point I made about PCars, I feel people that "know" racing sims, base everything on what other sims feel like, when in-fact most sims were wrong, and made driving harder than IRL, according to the old Stig, I forget his name.
Nope I base min eon reality, always have.


Reality or other "more accepted" sims? This assumes you don't mean the TC or launch side movement, which we've covered.
Reality.

I'm fortunate to have worked in training roles in the motor industry for twenty years, its provided me with a lot of access to cars (road and race), tracks and proving grounds.


I also feel the lack of G-Force and restricted FOV mean the sense of speed is lessened, and that we're actually being far more brutal with the car and tyres than we realise.
G-force missing can be an issue, but a decent rig with a tactile set-up goes some way in that regard, as does having the ability to adjust FOV (and a dynamic FOV is even better), again thing other titles in the genre do.


The idea that trophies are related to user activity and longevity with a title is insightful, but cannot be entirely accurate. What if I log into GTS every day from launch to the bitter end, take 500,000 scapes photos and do nothing else?

Probably a rare occurrence, but so is getting a platinum trophy. So you have two different players and both could be spening the same amount of time. Heck, the scape fiend could ultimately dedicate more time than the platinum achiever.
You would be an outlier, which is why I've never looked at a single trophy in this regard, but a whole range to get a wider picture.


I believe developers delve more deeply into the data they obtain rather than relying on raw trophy information.
They almost certainly do, but as we don't have access to that we use what we have, and what we have is a staggeringly huge data-set that does tell us a lot about owners habits.
 
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In the lack of a better source, one must stick to what one has. Do you have a better source of statstical data. Poles around election day (in my country) are conducted on 600 people in a country of 4 milion, and they are fairly good represntationof the final result.

Thats your argument do I have access to a better poll, if not we will have to use this flawed one?

(Do I need to mention Brexit, yea polls are reliable)
 
It doesn't come across as confrontational, it honestly comes across as defensive.
While we won't agree on, well, much, I will say it's not defensive, it's just what I find relevant in a racing game, and what I really don't find relevant.

On the fly pit strategy in GT is far better than pre-programmed stuff to be done automatically too, surely :) it's done really well, perhaps at the expense of driving at 30mph for a bit yourself.

I've already said and admitted its not a "full" sim, but it's more of one than any other GT, and I'm happy with the balance. Pit lane limiter is just another annoyance when all I really care about is pit strategy.

I can see by your sig that you spend a lot of money and time making it as authentic as possible, so I can understand your point of view entirely. But not everyone really cares about the minor detail, well I don't anyway.

When I say "balance" I mean things like this:
I've not raced in real life, I've not even been on a track in a car in real life, so I can't say much about IRL comparison. But I have been on track many times on stupidly fast superbikes against all the local "heroes". A GT-esk motorbike game called Ride2, isn't anything like riding a bike IRL, but its a cracking game and having the IRL experience makes me a better player. Then you have GPBikes, a "sim" and it's near impossible to get round the first corner. It's 100 times easier to ride a 1000bhp per tone bike around Oulton Park in real life than it is to ride a GPBikes 125 round 1 corner.

It's all a balance, and I and many others just like the GTSport balance :)

Just trying to put "the other side" into the argument. It's been a good discussion
 
I’m not saying that PD did it right. Could be that they are forced. Not by management, but this other big player that still needs to make its appearance in the game.
FIA is in my humble opinion the one that wants to prevent (demands) offline cheating. So how to prevent this??? One solution, you (FIA/PD) control the data. Don’t let someone else have the possibility to access save data.
FIA is the new Sony:lol:



What does having ps+ have to do with looking at previews on youtube or somewhere else.
What I forgot to mention is that you can't compare Fifa series that comes out every year, to gt wich has circa 4 years cycle. Ea sports is not a publisher that takes risks, so it is a safe bet that fifa 2018 will be pretty much like fifa 2017, 16,15...
Gran Turismo came out every 2-4 years on average and PD was not a publisher that takes risks. It was a safe bet for 15 years that the next GT would be like GT6, GT5, GT4, GT3, GT2 etc.

In the lack of a better source, one must stick to what one has. Do you have a better source of statstical data. Poles around election day (in my country) are conducted on 600 people in a country of 4 milion, and they are fairly good represntationof the final result.
General opinion polls are sampled from random people. It's the fundamental reason polls work, because they are random sampled. Opinion polls on GTP or any gaming website are not random samples. We aren't all typical consumers or gamers, we are concentrated on the hardcore end of things, hence why we are spending our time on a gaming forum that is built around a single franchise. Our preferences will be skewed towards the more hardcore player. They'll also be skewed for other reasons. Like or hate the poll maker. The question is poorly worded. Not enough options in the poll to reflect all opinions etc.

The idea that trophies are related to user activity and longevity with a title is insightful, but cannot be entirely accurate. What if I log into GTS every day from launch to the bitter end, take 500,000 scapes photos and do nothing else? Probably a rare occurrence, but so is getting a platinum trophy. So you have two different players and both could be spening the same amount of time. Heck, the scape fiend could ultimately dedicate more time than the platinum achiever.

I believe developers delve more deeply into the data they obtain rather than relying on raw trophy information.
One person's activitiy isn't going to skew data provided by thousands or hundreds of thousands of participants. The GT5 trophy data was provided by more than half a million people for example. It's still early for GTSport but the database will grow over time and the data will reflect that. Of course developers probably have access to a lot more information than we have but that's what we have so that's what we discuss.
 
While we won't agree on, well, much, I will say it's not defensive, it's just what I find relevant in a racing game, and what I really don't find relevant.
Which is why we discuss it.

On the fly pit strategy in GT is far better than pre-programmed stuff to be done automatically too, surely :) it's done really well, perhaps at the expense of driving at 30mph for a bit yourself.
Its not pre-programmed, you as the driver can pre-set every part of it (down to which parts you want repaired), you can also change it on the fly as well.

It offers everything about pit stratergy that GTS does and more.

I've already said and admitted its not a "full" sim, but it's more of one than any other GT, and I'm happy with the balance.
Which is fine, but you seem to have an issue that others don't share that view and wish to discuss it.

Pit lane limiter is just another annoyance when all I really care about is pit strategy.
You care about pit strategy and yet find one of the key elements of it an annoyance?

I can see by your sig that you spend a lot of money and time making it as authentic as possible, so I can understand your point of view entirely. But not everyone really cares about the minor detail, well I don't anyway.
I don't have an issue with that, but I do find it odd that you see to want to dismiss the concerns of those who do.

When I say "balance" I mean things like this:
I've not raced in real life, I've not even been on a track in a car in real life, so I can't say much about IRL comparison. But I have been on track many times on stupidly fast superbikes against all the local "heroes". A GT-esk motorbike game called Ride2, isn't anything like riding a bike IRL, but its a cracking game and having the IRL experience makes me a better player. Then you have GPBikes, a "sim" and it's near impossible to get round the first corner. It's 100 times easier to ride a 1000bhp per tone bike around Oulton Park in real life than it is to ride a GPBikes 125 round 1 corner.

It's all a balance, and I and many others just like the GTSport balance :)
I agree that Ride 2 is a great game, I like it a lot myself.

However any thing that labels itself as a sim that is impossible to drive up to the limit is not a good sim, and I would personally be happy to point that out to the same degree as I do with GTS.

One person's activitiy isn't going to skew data provided by thousands or hundreds of thousands of participants. The GT5 trophy data was provided by more than half a million people for example. It's still early for GTSport but the database will grow over time and the data will reflect that. Of course developers probably have access to a lot more information than we have but that's what we have so that's what we discuss.
Given the always on-line nature of GTS and the fact that PS4's automatically sync trophy data it actually going to be more robust.
 
Thats your argument do I have access to a better poll, if not we will have to use this flawed one?

(Do I need to mention Brexit, yea polls are reliable)
Some are, some are not. But if you don't have any, any other data, then you might aswell make stuff up.

The question is poorly worded. Not enough options in the poll to reflect all opinions etc
I think it was pretty detailed. What exactly is wrong with the question, and what options are missing?
 
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Some are, some are not. But if you don't have any, any other data, then you might aswell make stuff up.

And drawing conclusions from a heavily biased poll, as @Johnnypenso just pointed out is any better?

Lets just be clear I’m not the one making stuff up to fit a conclusion, more that you are using biased data to support your argument, just because there is no other data set to use, head in the sand much?
 
Some are, some are not. But if you don't have any, any other data, then you might aswell make stuff up.
But we do have other data, one of the largest data-sets that relate to gamer activity!

Oh and please stop double posting.
 
And drawing conclusions from a heavily biased poll, as @Johnnypenso just pointed out is any better?

I don't think that the members on gtplanet are in majority hardcore type racers , I for one am not, surly not the only one. So it is hardly a biased in a way stated by johnnypenso. Look at the guys who spend more time in scapes, livery editor and photomode, than racing.
 
Which is why we discuss it.


Its not pre-programmed, you as the driver can pre-set every part of it (down to which parts you want repaired), you can also change it on the fly as well.

It offers everything about pit stratergy that GTS does and more.


Which is fine, but you seem to have an issue that others don't share that view and wish to discuss it.


You care about pit strategy and yet find one of the key elements of it an annoyance?


I don't have an issue with that, but I do find it odd that you see to want to dismiss the concerns of those who do.


I agree that Ride 2 is a great game, I like it a lot myself.

However any thing that labels itself as a sim that is impossible to drive up to the limit is not a good sim, and I would personally be happy to point that out to the same degree as I do with GTS.


Given the always on-line nature of GTS and the fact that PS4's automatically sync trophy data it actually going to be more robust.

Le'ts just agree to disagree. Getting petty.
 
I think it was pretty detailed. What exactly is wrong with the question, and what options are missing?
I was speaking generally, not in relation to any specific poll.

I don't think that the members on gtplanet are in majority hardcore type racers , I for one am not, surly not the only one. So it is hardly a biased in a way stated by johnnypenso. Look at the guys who spend more time in scapes, livery editor and photomode, than racing.
By definition the poll is biased because it's taking place on a gaming website and it's about gaming. You don't go to Fox or CNN and conduct a poll of your viewers about politics and it expect is has any value in generalizing to the public at large because your viewers, by definition, are politically skewed one way or the other. Anyone who knows anything about polling knows this means, at GTP, it's not a random sampling of generic gamers. I suggest you do some research in how to properly conduct a randomly sampled poll.
 
I was speaking generally, not in relation to any specific poll.
So basically you have no idea what pole we're discussing about.

By definition the poll is biased because it's taking place on a gaming website and it's about gaming

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ral-discussion.337545/page-1248#post-12025416

So what exactly is biased in this pole and towards what side?

. I suggest you do some research in how to properly conduct a randomly sampled poll

I suggest you take a look at the pole in question.
 
Magic again, How did you know a majority is not diehard racing fans scaff? Citation needed. Others are not allowed to make stuff up like this without proving it, what excuses you? If you have proof of it, post it.

I purchased a PS1 for the original Gran Turismo.
I purchased a PS2 for Gran Turismo A-Spec.
I purcahsed a PS3 for Gran Turismo 5.
I purchased a PS4 for Gran Turismo Sport.

Gran Turismo is the only racing game I have ever owned. I have tried the others...and they are just pretty junk IMO. I don't consider myself a die-hard racing sim fan, nor do I wish for GT to change after so many years of being relatively the same. The only way I'll be happy with GT Sport is if it's a temporary game and GT 7 will replace it...and include Lotus...and have seasonal challenges!
 
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