Beauty Contest: Gran Turismo Sport vs Forza Motorsport 7

SlipZtrEm
Yeah, no.

The livery editor lacks any ability to group layers. It also is missing coordinates, meaning it's impossible to put text on an angle consistently (or indeed, resize letters). You can only move one item at a time, so if there's a patch of shapes you need to shuffle over, you'll have to do it one by one, and hope that you can keep the original spacing.

Base paint jobs can only be standard paint, metallic, or pearl. If you want matte, chrome, or colour-shift you're at the mercy of the Mileage Exchange (so you can't make your own custom swatches for any of those).

I recreated this in-game earlier today:

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Well, just the text. It took a while, but in Forza, I can save the layer group, and it'll always be ready to go, for any car, in the future. I can recolour it in a matter of seconds.

In GT, I had to recreate it two more times on the one livery I was working on. It can't be copied from one side of the car to the other (because it ends up backwards), and it can't be put on the hood or roof if it was first made on the side of the car.

Now, depending on how the import feature works when it goes live, this could be solved, at least partially. But then that's not really showing the power of the livery editor: it's just transferring the workload to players with a copy of Illustrator or some similar software. If it's possible, I'll be exclusively working with SVGs for future liveries, because the simple one I did today, which would've taken an hour tops in FM7, took four times that in GT.

GT's livery editor is a solid first effort. But it's a distant third place to the ones found in NFS and Forza.



Yep, no layer grouping. Not only that, but the cursor and camera are reset repeatedly. I get the feeling that whoever designed it planned on players using nothing but the pre-existing stickers, because it's a nightmare in terms of design consistency.

For example, I made this today:

View attachment 682824

It took four hours, because I needed to do the Mazda logo by hand three times.

But what's worse is having to recolour anything. There are ~150 layers there, and about half of them need to be recoloured. Having to scroll through the entire list, then make about nine button presses to swap the colour, means this took 40 minutes to do:

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Well, this just answered what I had just inquired in the Livery thread. You just saved me a whack load of time and future disappointment. Hopefully there will be some update in the future where we can save individual logos to be placed on whatever car we want. Kind of makes me feel bad for the guys that want to have team cars with their own number or whatever.
 
From my experience in the demo, GT is clearly the best solution for serious, accessible online racing. I've almost never had any bad race, and when my SR and race pace got higher, I began racing with real, fast gentlemen.

It's just sad that the physics are still so basic. Just wish a game like AC or PC2 could spend more effort to introduce a similar matchmaking with at least equal penalty system.

The graphics of GT are clearly superior, but I couldn't really care less, racing with AC graphics is good enough for me.

About Forza, I was really interested in it until it came out and saw the gameplay and the online content. The physics look like NFS to me (I'd say +90% of youtube videos are about people drifting with controllers, and it looks like it requires no effort, once in a slide, the car will almost never over-oversteer, any acceleration will help stay on the drift rail like NFS unlike other games when it's the opposite effect and it's better to more often let go off the throttle and control the throttle very carefully to have a clean, nice drifting) and the online is really destruction derby.

It's true GT lacks content, but to be honest, it has plenty of GT3 and other race cars to race with, and actually VGT are mostly in another category which is a welcome addition. However, the true let-down, especially compared to GT6, are the tracks, and dynamic time and weather.
 
TheNuvolari
BOTH LOOK AMAZING END OF ARGUMENT.
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Never thought I would see you post that but I agree. Each do some things better than the other, the higher power of a PC/XBox One X mean that texture resolution, aliasing and true 4k make FM7 look better in that regard but car models and that magical lighting make GTS better in that regard. Overall though it's pretty apparent that GTS is the better looking game.
 
ImaRobot
That's hardly more than skin deep :lol: you're very vocal about triple screen support, so I find it funny that you aren't here.
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For me, it's important to have lap time progress on-screen to monitor my performance. Just having there while I'm concentrating on Paddock at Brands Hatch and taking it away when I'm ready to read it is plain stupid and annoying.

And, for me, as a photographer, it's important to have a lot of source material, so I like to save lots of replays.

As for triple screen, yes, I have been a very pleased user in the first 4 Forzas, as well as GT5 and 6. I'm not jumping up and down about it not being in GTS at launch for three reasons.
  1. As with GT6 it's a planned feature, so it'll be there if I need it.
  2. It may be that PSVR will satisfy my immersion desires.
  3. Finally, I have downsized, and it's not easy to set up the configuration.
 
Although GT's car models and lighting is stunning I have to disagree about the environments. GT's tracks are lifeless and sterile, some even look like PS2 quality. They always use the photomode shots to represent the game when the actual gameplay looks nothing like it.

Most franchises, even ones like NFS, have excelled in making the environments look real and alive. Also their weather effects are a cut above anything GT has done.

It is very clear where PD's expertise lie and it's not in the scenery. I'm sure there are some who don't consider it as important as the cars but I would rather have a balance between the two.
 
Robin
Although GT's car models and lighting is stunning I have to disagree about the environments. GT's tracks are lifeless and sterile, some even look like PS2 quality. They always use the photomode shots to represent the game when the actual gameplay looks nothing like it.

Most franchises, even ones like NFS, have excelled in making the environments look real and alive. Also their weather effects are a cut above anything GT has done.

It is very clear where PD's expertise lie and it's not in the scenery. I'm sure there are some who don't consider it as important as the cars but I would rather have a balance between the two.
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the video also shows the difference between the scenarios and GTsport comes out winner ... so i do not understand what you mean with sterile
 
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|On the other hand, Forza 7 saw its playtime relegated to a PC with max settings and 4K resolution. Why? A lack of Xbox One X code — an unfortunate setback but the disparities aren’t as great as you may expect.

This is a joke man, you didn'get an Xbox One X code for free, so you sit on your high horse and don't get a copy for yourself and want to be taken seriously as an editor? Not even gonna read the rest of this half-assed article.
 
Chris Criswell
|On the other hand, Forza 7 saw its playtime relegated to a PC with max settings and 4K resolution. Why? A lack of Xbox One X code — an unfortunate setback but the disparities aren’t as great as you may expect.

This is a joke man, you didn'get an Xbox One X code for free, so you sit on your high horse and don't get a copy for yourself and want to be taken seriously as an editor? Not even gonna read the rest of this half-assed article.
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What are you even talking about?

The article is about Digital Foundry's comparison test. DF explained why it used the PC build — which is very nearly what players can expect on the X.
 
Chris Criswell
|On the other hand, Forza 7 saw its playtime relegated to a PC with max settings and 4K resolution. Why? A lack of Xbox One X code — an unfortunate setback but the disparities aren’t as great as you may expect.

This is a joke man, you didn'get an Xbox One X code for free, so you sit on your high horse and don't get a copy for yourself and want to be taken seriously as an editor? Not even gonna read the rest of this half-assed article.
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Well, that's embarrassing for you :lol:
 
bashfulboson
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Instead of trying to paint a one sided picture, what did they actually say when comparing these images?

What I think PD really nails is those materials on things like the steering wheels. Forza's just looks like cracked concrete or something, its so odd. That, and the difference in the taillights between Forza and GT is obvious. However, I think the worse offender on the FM7 side is those rims, and the AC bezel.

One big issue that Forza has, and presents itself in this comparison, is the headlight and taillight illumination. That is another area that Gran Turismo accels at. If the taillights had been off in that comparison, it wouldn't have looked half as bad :lol:. GTS definitely gets the edge with it's materials, shaders, and lighting though. For cars that are labeled as "Super Premium", Forza isn't falling to far behind with it's outsourcing, though.
 
I have been watching a few comparison vids between these two and Drive Club. I gotta say that Drive Club looks better even after all these years. I know that DC had to make a lot of concessions to make it happen but damn that is still really gorgeous.
 
Both games look incredible. I'm sure if Turn 10 took as long as PD in making GTS and dumped work on all the features FM7 has and limited itself to essentially the same amount of fruits in GTS' basket, they'd have the time to put into perfecting the models like PD has. It just doesn't make any sense why they would, seeing as many of the cars in FM7 are reused assets from the past games and they have a much shorter development cycle for a game with ton more cars, more tracks and more overall features and had to meet a specific release date in anticipation of the publisher's new console.

Props to both titles, but I'd gladly sacrifice the detailed air vents and the 3D modeled trees for more features in a game - but that's just me.
 
@SlipZtrEm - making a Mazda logo once, let alone four times, before the .svg feature is unlocked is mental.

What were you thinking??

Lol. Otherwise, all good points. The lack of grouping is pretty maddening, but can't see why it can't be solved pretty soonish.

Also, I'm with DF, both games look ace.
 
GT6mebe
Bearing in mind this is just one car, and we don't even see the full interior where GTS shines. Just more evidence that PD keeping modelling in house has placed the series at the top and should do for the future.
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I suppose that can be true to an extent, however, GTS is not immune to it's own modeling problems either. Much like Forza, it seems to vary from car to car. So while some are great, others fall behind. Keeping it in house hasn't minimized the problem that seems to plague both games.

I wonder if the future is going to last farther than the current game it's on this time? :lol:
 
jm79
@SlipZtrEm - making a Mazda logo once, let alone four times, before the .svg feature is unlocked is mental.

What were you thinking??
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That it's one of my favourite GT1 race mods, and wanted it on a modern Mazda! :D

Three times, though.

Also, I did it to illustrate the the differences between GT Sport's livery editor in its current form and the competition's.

The lack of grouping is pretty maddening, but can't see why it can't be solved pretty soonish.
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Eh, the livery editor's been in the works for at least 18 months. I agree that adding grouping shouldn't be too much of a hassle in theory, but considering it never seemed to come up during that whole time, who knows how long it could take.

TheCrazySwede
Both games look incredible. I'm sure if Turn 10 took as long as PD in making GTS and dumped work on all the features FM7 has and limited itself to essentially the same amount of fruits in GTS' basket, they'd have the time to put into perfecting the models like PD has. It just doesn't make any sense why they would, seeing as many of the cars in FM7 are reused assets from the past games and they have a much shorter development cycle for a game with ton more cars, more tracks and more overall features and had to meet a specific release date in anticipation of the publisher's new console.

Props to both titles, but I'd gladly sacrifice the detailed air vents and the 3D modeled trees for more features in a game - but that's just me.
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It reminds me a lot of dynamic time/weather. Trade-offs have been made: PCARS2 has a full dynamic suite, but its environments aren't as visually impressive as FM7's, and its lighting isn't as pretty as GT's (on consoles).

I look at it in terms of sliders, or comparative values. FM7 has four times the cars of GT Sport (I'm rounding down to 640-ish thanks to some duplicates from both titles), but GT's model quality is not four times FM7's, IMO anyway. It's not a simple quality versus quantity argument; that discounts the relative quality of FM7's models. This isn't like Standards versus Premiums in GT5.

Variety is another angle. I touched on it in our review: on paper, PCARS2 and GT Sport are separated by only two dozen cars. But in reality, scrolling through both games, there's so much more on offer in PCARS2. The class-based structure of GT's online modes isn't really an excuse either: PD still included a bunch of unclassed Gr.X vehicles, and Kaz has mentioned plans to add the typical variety of cars post-release.

But I'm getting away from the main point here: the visual quality. Swapping back and forth between both this weekend, GT Sport is the winner for me. It's close — much closer than it was for, say, GT5 and FM3 — but those replays! The only time I watch replays in FM7 is to either shoot some photos, or report a dirty driver. :lol:

I'm on original equipment for both systems, too. I played FM7 on the One X recently, and it's gorgeous. It closes the gap further, but even then, I'm inclined to give the nod to Sport on a Pro. It largely comes down to different art direction at these levels though, and while GT Sport clinches it, I could never call either one ugly.

Especially in motion. As good as comparisons are, even DF's, it doesn't beat watching both in person.

GT6mebe
Bearing in mind this is just one car, and we don't even see the full interior where GTS shines. Just more evidence that PD keeping modelling in house has placed the series at the top and should do for the future.
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We should also take a look at the engine bay... 💡
 
SlipZtrEm
It reminds me a lot of dynamic time/weather. Trade-offs have been made: PCARS2 has a full dynamic suite, but its environments aren't as visually impressive as FM7's, and its lighting isn't as pretty as GT's (on consoles).

I look at it in terms of sliders, or comparative values. FM7 has four times the cars of GT Sport (I'm rounding down to 640-ish thanks to some duplicates from both titles), but GT's model quality is not four times FM7's, IMO anyway. It's not a simple quality versus quantity argument; that discounts the relative quality of FM7's models. This isn't like Standards versus Premiums in GT5.

Variety is another angle. I touched on it in our review: on paper, PCARS2 and GT Sport are separated by only two dozen cars. But in reality, scrolling through both games, there's so much more on offer in PCARS2. The class-based structure of GT's online modes isn't really an excuse either: PD still included a bunch of unclassed Gr.X vehicles, and Kaz has mentioned plans to add the typical variety of cars post-release.

But I'm getting away from the main point here: the visual quality. Swapping back and forth between both this weekend, GT Sport is the winner for me. It's close — much closer than it was for, say, GT5 and FM3 — but those replays! The only time I watch replays in FM7 is to either shoot some photos, or report a dirty driver. :lol:

I'm on original equipment for both systems, too. I played FM7 on the One X recently, and it's gorgeous. It closes the gap further, but even then, I'm inclined to give the nod to Sport on a Pro. It largely comes down to different art direction at these levels though, and while GT Sport clinches it, I could never call either one ugly.

Especially in motion. As good as comparisons are, even DF's, it doesn't beat watching both in person.
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What you said about having roughly 4x less cars but not justifying it with 4x the detail is an excellent point. The cars look fantastic in GTS, especially on the Pro, but FM7 isn't exactly potato quality by comparison. The cars in FM7 are absolutely stunning - especially when experienced in 4K on PC. Not only do the cars look amazing, but they sound incredible.

There's also the case of art direction and lighting. Forza Motorsport has been leaning more towards a 'blockbuster' feel by allowing the cars, and the tracks, seem larger than life. The game's art direction wants to take your breath away - and at tracks such as the Alps, it really does. Jump into a Pagani Cinque and roar down the mountain in stunning 4K with your choice of gaming headphones and rack up that volume slider - and tell me that's not an experience worthy of being jaw dropping in its own right. You don't get that sense of awe from GT games and GTS is no exception.

Where FM7 falls short in terms of art direction, GTS and the lads over at PD deliver in folds - and then some. Whereas FM7 makes me say "Wow, that looks gorgeous," GTS makes me say "Holy ****, that looks real." Of course one can use the term beautiful there, too, but I think you understand what I mean. It's not going for that 'larger than life' feel - it's going for photorealism, and that's something that hasn't changed since the game's very first installment back on the PS1.

GTS looks incredibly realistic, but to me this is more a testament of how the lighting works in the game and less so about whether or not the AC vents look real. GTS' lighting is insanely good and the fact that it handles it at 60fps (mostly) on the standard console is rather impressive. Art direction is a big deal, however, as it makes your game stand out. Games like Breath of the Wild and Cuphead look absolutely stunning - but nobody is going to mistake them for real life anytime soon. Forza walks that line really well, I think, and GTS just knocks the realism deal right out of the park.

But you're right about GTS' shortcomings. Fancy lighting and windshield washer fluid nozzles don't justify the lack of actual gameplay. I'm getting some really heavy 'Prologue' vibes from GTS...
 
Robin
Dirt, debris, rubber, oil... environments that look worn, weathered etc

Not like this...

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Lol, you took the only track to the city environment where everything and cement as reality ... take the same track at night and tell me if you are still sterile XD

Of the other tracks what do you tell me instead? in video comparison what is more sterile as the setting between strength and gts?
 
danh25
Lol, you took the only track to the city environment where everything and cement as reality ... take the same track at night and tell me if you are still sterile XD

Of the other tracks what do you tell me instead? in video comparison what is more sterile as the setting between strength and gts?
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I think you're continuing to miss the actual point being made. No matter how pretty a track looks at any time of the day, it lacks sufficient character — that's where dirt, debris, etc features (don't) come into play, hence the criticism. Tracks lack tire marbles laid down from consistent lapping and tire wear, debris doesn't build up on the car itself when you're tucked behind another car getting a tow. Before someone says "What do you mean? Cars get dirty!" That's...not the same thing at all.

This is what people mean when they say locations in GT games look to clincial, because they do.
 
danh25
Lol, you took the only track to the city environment where everything and cement as reality ... take the same track at night and tell me if you are still sterile XD

Of the other tracks what do you tell me instead? in video comparison what is more sterile as the setting between strength and gts?
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The Tokyo expressway doesn't look THAT clean, on the road, buildings, flyovers etc. It's not about the lighting, its about the textures and assets. There is a distinct lack of grime and randomness in GT and it's always been this way back to the PS2 days. For more green locales you also see pristine grass, fences, no debris around etc. Everything is just too perfect when real life looks grotty or unkempt.

Also as I said in my original post I'm not comparing it specifically to Forza, I'm comparing it to other competition such as NFS 2015 which for me has/had the greatest environmental detail out there in a racing game. Driveclub was another good one in that respect.
 
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danh25
Lol, you took the only track to the city environment where everything and cement as reality ... take the same track at night and tell me if you are still sterile XD

Of the other tracks what do you tell me instead? in video comparison what is more sterile as the setting between strength and gts?
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Pick any track you want from GTS and compare it to a circuit from Driveclub and I think you'll begin to see what the user is trying to say - if I'm understanding their point correctly.

I'm not sure if you've ever been at a real race track, but 'lifeless' is a long ways down the list of words one would use to describe them. Back when I was an amateur racer with the SCCA in North America, and even now years later, there's always a great sense of excitement when you're approaching the track early in the morning because there's a sense that the track, in itself, is a living being. I especially remember this feeling at Laguna Seca, where you literally get swallowed by this huge bowl around you and you sink deeper into the abyss and find yourself at the mercy of the track, right in the belly of the beast.

Ambient sounds are a big part of it, too. The wind escaping through trees at high altitude in a place like the Nurburgring sounds entirely different than the more secluded, much warmer Yas Marina circuit. On race days, you have pit crews, people interacting with each other, cars being fired up, pre-checks of all the cars, crowds, announcers, and much, much more. FM7 actually does a pretty good job of giving players the illusion of this during the pre-race menu and it's a pretty cool effect.

Back to my comparison between GTS and Driveclub .- if you haven't tried DC, it's an awesome racer. Driving alongside the road in India, for example, and slowing down to park alongside the road, will treat you with all sorts of goodies. You might spot some wildlife down by the lake. You might notice that the sprinklers come on at a certain hour by the garden. You might notice the clouds are constantly changing and are never the same. You might notice the leaves on the nearby trees being cradled back and forth by the wind. You might notice how certain parts of the road were paved differently. You might notice how your skidmarks from the previous laps settle in to the different ground materials. All this and I haven't even touched upon the dynamic day/night cycles and the incredible, truly amazing weather effects. Things like that brings a track to life. GTS feels like the circuits are inside some clinically sealed laboratory and the environments feel dead and 'sterile.'

I think that's what the OP meant, but I could be wrong.
 
I wish we had more city tracks. I really enjoyed them on previous titles and they were visually impressive than race tracks. In GTS the real world tracks are very detailed so the city tracks would look even better and fun to drive :(

 

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