Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[baldgye]

The positive news can’t stop coming for leavers and their brilliant campaign of lies

Staggering, considering how much better off we are going to be, it’s surprising how there has been literally no good news....

 

[Dotini]

It’s the pantomime that never ends

David Davis was able to essentially bully May (the PM) into setting a date for a plan to go into effect. A plan David Davis hasn’t come up with yet and shows no sign of being able too..

In part and in whole, strong evidence of schizophrenia and mental disfunction on the part of the British political class. You guys appear to be doomed.

 

[Scaff]

You guys appear to be doomed.

Funny, quite a few of us predicted that at the time of the vote, we got labeled fear-mongers by the same people ****ing it up right now.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Viewed from a foreigner's perspective, what is very clear is that, for some unexplainable reason, the society's political divide (between staying or leaving the EU) has no echo in the UK's political class. There is no champion for remain, so it seems remainers are indeed notihing more than remoaners, therefore easy prey for leavers that speak out loud about what they want.

Vince Cable is a political irrelevance. Cameron and Osborne are on holiday and apparently they're hated anyway. As is Blair. Tory remainers shrug at the perceived inevitabiliy of Brexit, although they do know it will most probably hurt their country. Labour remainers are silenced by some unexplainable reason (fear that Corbyn rule within the party will make them lose their jobs?)

So ... the slow motion trainwreck keeps going and nobody to speak against it and rally people to form a political coherent action (Geena Miller came close as the only FACE and VOICE I can remember that did something relevant and showed her face to do it).

But no mistake to be made. That train is slow, but it is in motion, and (IMHO, sorry Brits for voicing a distant opinion on your country) it is headed for a wreck.

 

[Touring Mars]

Funny, quite a few of us predicted that at the time of the vote, we got labeled fear-mongers by the same people ****ing it up right now.

The thing that grinds my gears above all else right now (and there is a loooong queue forming for that particular task!) is that Scottish nationalists are pushing Brexit as the perfect reason for Scotland to become independent now, despite the fact that they are the same people who labeled the rest of us as 'fear-mongers' for suggesting that Scottish independence would be a disaster - utterly failing to realise (or admit) that there is any parallels between Scexit and Brexit when there are many. The pro-independence and pro-Brexit camps are united by common themes, namely labeling their opponents as 'Project Fear' while showing a breathtaking level of naivety, wishful thinking, blind optimism that they will get everything they demand, and a misplaced belief in the continuing goodwill of those who they seek to screw over in the future.

 

[Imari]

There is no champion for remain, so it seems remainers are indeed notihing more than remoaners, therefore easy prey for leavers that speak out loud about what they want.

To be fair, the country voted. Championing Remain now is beating a dead horse. The people have said that they want to Leave, and the politicians are supposed to be getting on with that rather than trying to reverse a democratic decision.

Unfortunately, it turns out to be a lot harder than they suspected and is quite possibly going to end up just running out the clock. Which is the worst possible outcome that absolutely no one wanted to happen.

The thing that grinds my gears above all else right now (and there is a loooong queue forming for that particular task!) is that Scottish nationalists are pushing Brexit as the perfect reason for Scotland to become independent now, despite the fact that they are the same people who labeled the rest of us as 'fear-mongers' for suggesting that Scottish independence would be a disaster - utterly failing to realise (or admit) that there is any parallels between Scexit and Brexit when there are many. The pro-independence and pro-Brexit camps are united by common themes, namely labeling their opponents as 'Project Fear' while showing a breathtaking level of naivety, wishful thinking, blind optimism that they will get everything they demand, and a misplaced belief in the continuing goodwill of those who they seek to screw over in the future.

There are many parallels, but I'd assume the primary reason for Scotland to break with the UK would be so that it could immediately join the EU, thus mitigating some of those issues. I'd imagine that the EU would be quite helpful in making it easy for Scotland in such a situation.

 

[Liquid]

Labour COULD fight against Brexit and give people like me some sort of hope that this whole shambolic mess won’t lead in economic ruin for those lesser well off. But they won’t and have refused to do so. Like every political bone thrown Jezzez way, he’s totally ****ed it

The Old Left has always been against the EEC and EU because the EEC and EU are exploitative playgrounds for the rampant capitalism they dislike so much.

I don't know why the Millennial Left didn't know this.

 

[Touring Mars]

There are many parallels, but I'd assume the primary reason for Scotland to break with the UK would be so that it could immediately join the EU, thus mitigating some of those issues.

Mitigating some perhaps, while creating a whole new set of issues. Primary among these issues was currency - the SNP claim Scotland would continue to use the pound against the wishes of the UK government, while EU law would legally compel Scotland to join the Euro eventually - which virtually no-one in Scotland wants. Also, despite Scotland voting decisively in favour of staying in the EU, it must be remembered what many people actually voted for, which was continuing membership of the EU on the terms as they were in 2016, and not simply EU membership per se. What Scotland will get from any new deal with the EU will be quite different to what we had as members via the UK (e.g. the Euro).

I'd imagine that the EU would be quite helpful in making it easy for Scotland in such a situation.

This is a good example of what I mean by wishful thinking - I would hope this would be the case, but there is actually very little to suggest that it is actually the case. Indeed, at a time when Spain faces an existential challenge from pro-independence regions, it is exceedingly unlikely that all EU member states would agree to give Scotland any form of special status (i.e. in letting us either 'stay in' or 'immediately rejoin' the EU), or that Scotland is even eligible for EU membership. Granted, the EU has admitted members who arguably shouldn't have been allowed to join (for failing to meet the economic requirements, e.g. Greece), but that is hardly a good reason to justify a fast-track application for Scotland.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Viewed from a foreigner's perspective, what is very clear is that, for some unexplainable reason, the society's political divide (between staying or leaving the EU) has no echo in the UK's political class. There is no champion for remain, so it seems remainers are indeed notihing more than remoaners, therefore easy prey for leavers that speak out loud about what they want.

Well, we voted leave, and then we re-elected the party committed to taking us out. To a point, the time for championing Remain was 2 years ago. The chance of Article 50 cancellation seems awfully remote and until we as a nation know exactly how we're going to be affected I can't see everyone agreeing to seriously talk about changing course at this stage... and from what I recall, even then, the rest of Europe has to agree to let us cancel... which could be... interesting... At this stage I've given up interest in the whole thing, and am just hoping for a dramatic Royal intervention for ***** and giggles.

291 days left... c'mon Lizzie.

 

[baldgye]

The Old Left has always been against the EEC and EU because the EEC and EU are exploitative playgrounds for the rampant capitalism they dislike so much.

I don't know why the Millennial Left didn't know this.

What are you talking about?

Labour whipped all of their remain MP’s into line. The only strength Corbyn has is that he’s currently the only person who could lead the party.
I’m looking forward to the return of the true Milliebean... David.

I’m not pro either party btw, but you cannot have a ‘democracy’ without an opposition to the government and the Liberals have proven time and time again to be worthless

 

[Liquid]

What are you talking about?

You were talking about how Jeremy Corbyn has dropped the ball on the EU-Brexit scenario. Figures like Jeremy Corbyn, Dennis Skinner, Michael Foot and Tony Benn of the old school Old Left have never been in favour of the EU for the reasons I mentioned; the nasty EEC/EU allows exploitative capitalism and stifles socialist progress. That is likely why Corbyn was surprisingly quiet on the Remain campaign of which his younger supporters themselves would be in favour.

You can check out the arguments for/against in the 1975 continued membership referendum. Basically, don't be surprised that Corbyn isn't too arsed about Brexit because I highly suspect that he is in favour of it.

 

[baldgye]

You were talking about how Jeremy Corbyn has dropped the ball on the EU-Brexit scenario. Figures like Jeremy Corbyn, Dennis Skinner, Michael Foot and Tony Benn of the old school Old Left have never been in favour of the EU for the reasons I mentioned; the nasty EEC/EU allows exploitative capitalism and stifles socialist progress. That is likely why Corbyn was surprisingly quiet on the Remain campaign of which his younger supporters themselves would be in favour.

You can check out the arguments for/against in the 1975 continued membership referendum. Basically, don't be surprised that Corbyn isn't too arsed about Brexit because I highly suspect that he is in favour of it.

I’m not sure his personal reasons are all that important, Labour is such a mess and he is no captain.

 

[Biggles]

Figures like Jeremy Corbyn, Dennis Skinner, Michael Foot and Tony Benn of the old school Old Left have never been in favour of the EU for the reasons I mentioned; the nasty EEC/EU allows exploitative capitalism and stifles socialist progress.

You can check out the arguments for/against in the 1975 continued membership referendum. Basically, don't be surprised that Corbyn isn't too arsed about Brexit because I highly suspect that he is in favour of it.

I really think the ship of the Old Left has sailed out of port & over the horizon.

 

[Liquid]

I really think the ship of the Old Left has sailed out of port & over the horizon.

For what it's worth, a breakdown of Yes/Remain (olive) and No/Leave (blue)

The 1975 "counting areas" are based on what looks like the much larger traditional county boundaries (except in Northern Ireland) hence why there are fewer.

 

[baldgye]

One of the funders of the Brexit campaign walks out of MPQ’s

It’s tragic

 

[polysmut]

One of the funders of the Brexit campaign walks out of PMQ’s

It’s tragic

MP's questions, not Prime Minister's Questions.

 

[baldgye]

MP's questions, not Prime Minister's Questions.

Sorry, I read MPQ’s and then typed out PMQ’s

Corrected, thanks!

 

[TenEightyOne]

Some funds are worried about being located outside the EU post-Brexit and are setting up offices there as a precaution. Irish Times.

 

[TenEightyOne]

MPs have rejected a bid for the UK to stay in the European Economic Area post-Brexit. BBC.

 

[baldgye]

MPs have rejected a bid for the UK to stay in the European Economic Area post-Brexit. BBC.

Brexit means Brexit!

Championing Remain now is beating a dead horse. The people have said that they want to Leave, and the politicians are supposed to be getting on with that rather than trying to reverse a democratic decision.

A referendum is not a democratic decision, it’s the Commons asking for the publics opinion. There isn’t any mandate except what Ministers have said, I can’t imagine Nigel Farage simply giving up if he’d lost the vote by the same margin as he ‘won’ it.

Further more all the promises made by the leave party about what we could do and how much better it would be if we left, turned out to be lies.

Why continue with this farce? Especially as poles continue to suggest that a revote would favour remain...

This is why I’m Championing remain.

 

[Imari]

A referendum is not a democratic decision, it’s the Commons asking for the publics opinion.

It's both. If a referendum isn't democratic, then the society isn't democratic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum

From a political-philosophical perspective, referendums are an expression of direct democracy. However, in the modern world, most referendums need to be understood within the context of representative democracy. Therefore, they tend to be used quite selectively, covering issues such as changes in voting systems, where currently elected officials may not have the legitimacy or inclination to implement such changes.

There isn’t any mandate except what Ministers have said, I can’t imagine Nigel Farage simply giving up if he’d lost the vote by the same margin as he ‘won’ it.

Perhaps, but in a democratic society it's political suicide to ignore the will of the people. Nigel Farage might not simply give up, but he's an idiot. Saying that other people aren't behaving like Nigel Farage would is somewhat of a compliment.

If you think that behaving like Nigel Farage is a point in your favour, then don't let me convince you otherwise.

Why continue with this farce? Especially as poles continue to suggest that a revote would favour remain...

But it's not about what the Poles think, but the British.

The polls tended to suggest that the vote was either even or to remain before the referendum too, if I recall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opini..._Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

But hey, it'll be totally different this time. When you don't get the result you want, throw it out and try again. That's how democracy works. It's the illusion of choice that matters.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm not in favour of a second Exit referendum, and I don't think another referendum with a different question (e.g. on EEA membership, for example) would be a good idea either. Referenda are fine if they offer a straightforward choice between one alternative or another; "Should the UK remain in the EU?" is a good referendum question; "What should the future relationship of the UK and the EU be?" is not. There appears to be quite a lot of people who believe that the Brexit referendum question was (or should have been) more like the second question, but it wasn't - and necessarily so.

 

[baldgye]

Perhaps, but in a democratic society it's political suicide to ignore the will of the people.

Perhaps, but it isn’t the ‘will of the people’ to be poorer, or to loose Northern Ireland, or to loose the NHS. The ‘will of the people’ was an impossibility they were lied to about.

Nigel Farage might not simply give up, but he's an idiot. Saying that other people aren't behaving like Nigel Farage would is somewhat of a compliment.

He’s an idiot that managed to sway ‘the will of the people’ in his direction. A man who said Africans are spreading AIDS in the U.K. on TV

 

[BobK]

Brexit means Brexit!



A referendum is not a democratic decision, it’s the Commons asking for the publics opinion. There isn’t any mandate except what Ministers have said, I can’t imagine Nigel Farage simply giving up if he’d lost the vote by the same margin as he ‘won’ it.

Further more all the promises made by the leave party about what we could do and how much better it would be if we left, turned out to be lies.

Why continue with this farce? Especially as poles continue to suggest that a revote would favour remain...

This is why I’m Championing remain.

In other words, "I don't like the result so it doesn't count".

 

[baldgye]

I'm not in favour of a second Exit referendum, and I don't think another referendum with a different question (e.g. on EEA membership, for example) would be a good idea either. Referenda are fine if they offer a straightforward choice between one alternative or another; "Should the UK remain in the EU?" is a good referendum question; "What should the future relationship of the UK and the EU be?" is not. There appears to be quite a lot of people who believe that the Brexit referendum question was (or should have been) more like the second question, but it wasn't - and necessarily so.

I think when all is said and done, when we have arrived at the date and the PM has either a deal or no deal with the EU and has or hasn’t a solution to NI we should be asked again.

At the end of the day, it isn’t up to us, it’s up to those who represent us.

In the cold light of day and with clear facts laid out can you have a meaningful vote. The lies and the fraud that plagued the first vote to my mind invalidated it. However I’m not a lawyer, or a political expert so I’m probably wrong on that

In other words, "I don't like the result so it doesn't count".

No, when the people campaigning for something later after a vote has happened then say that they lied to win the vote. That’s when it shouldn’t count

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's the illusion of choice that matters.

The problem is that the head of the Leave campaign's media strategy is on record as saying that some of their claims were simply ludicrous and untruthful. BBC.

We were not above using alternative methods to punch home our message or lead people up the garden path if we had to.

...the piece of advice that we got, right from the beginning, was remember referendums are not about facts, it's about emotion and you have got to tap into that emotion...If you are trying to sell something or put a good case over to somebody you will tell the best story. If that's provocation - or a lie, if you want to call it that, yeah.

That's what has made a mockery of that 'democratic' referendum and that is why some Leave voters are saying that they would vote differently in the face of the facts that we know now.

The slim margin of the result is naturally leading to questions about how strong the mandate for Leave is given that many of the pro-Leave campaign claims were retracted within days of the result with many more being debunked as time goes on. In terms of that mandate there's also some merit in the argument that the result was 50/50 given the fact that two countries voted to stay while two voted to leave.

 

[baldgye]

The problem is that the head of the Leave campaign's media strategy is on record as saying that some of their claims were simply ludicrous and untruthful. BBC.





That's what has made a mockery of that 'democratic' referendum and that is why some Leave voters are saying that they would vote differently in the face of the facts that we know now.

The slim margin of the result is naturally leading to questions about how strong the mandate for Leave is given that many of the pro-Leave campaign claims were retracted within days of the result with many more being debunked as time goes on. In terms of that mandate there's also some merit in the argument that the result was 50/50 given the fact that two countries voted to stay while two voted to leave.

Also, statistically a decent % of the leave voters have died of old age...

 

[Mr Tree]

The Old Left has always been against the EEC and EU because the EEC and EU are exploitative playgrounds for the rampant capitalism they dislike so much.

I don't know why the Millennial Left didn't know this.

You were talking about how Jeremy Corbyn has dropped the ball on the EU-Brexit scenario. Figures like Jeremy Corbyn, Dennis Skinner, Michael Foot and Tony Benn of the old school Old Left have never been in favour of the EU for the reasons I mentioned; the nasty EEC/EU allows exploitative capitalism and stifles socialist progress. That is likely why Corbyn was surprisingly quiet on the Remain campaign of which his younger supporters themselves would be in favour.

You can check out the arguments for/against in the 1975 continued membership referendum. Basically, don't be surprised that Corbyn isn't too arsed about Brexit because I highly suspect that he is in favour of it.

This is so wrong imo. First of using why don't millenials get it is like saying why don't the dumb kids get it... which is highly condescending. There is no millenial... not in the way you use it. You really think there is a generation that holds one political ideology?

But why I as a young socialsist do believe in institutions as the eu is quite simply. Unity means power so while I don't agree with the eu's current policies I don't believe we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. I want the socialists to rebuild the eu so it can protect it's citisens better against economic terrorism and black mail by multinationals then our countries would ever be able to do so on there own. I think this might have something to do with the world we grew up in. We grew up in a 'connected' world previous generations didn't. And we like that so no we're not going to be isolationists we want to change the system from within.

I don't have to agree with every point of a socialist defenitly not about ideas straight out the political midievals. If I had to it would make me a partisan hack.

I'm not in favour of a second Exit referendum, and I don't think another referendum with a different question (e.g. on EEA membership, for example) would be a good idea either. Referenda are fine if they offer a straightforward choice between one alternative or another; "Should the UK remain in the EU?" is a good referendum question; "What should the future relationship of the UK and the EU be?" is not. There appears to be quite a lot of people who believe that the Brexit referendum question was (or should have been) more like the second question, but it wasn't - and necessarily so.

How was that a fair referendum and an honnest question? I agree the question has to be straight forward but it has to have 2 options too doesn't it?

The UK voted over will we decline the deal we just negotiated or an UNKNOWN alternative. You guys basicly had a choice between a million things and framed it like 2 options.

It would have been fair if what was defined as brexit would have been clear but th uk dodn't even know if they'd negotiate for a h1rd or soft brexit.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It would have been fair if what was defined as brexit would have been clear but th uk dodn't even know if they'd negotiate for a h1rd or soft brexit.

I think a lot of people that voted didn't know what the EU is, nevermind if we should leave it.

 

[Touring Mars]

It would have been fair if what was defined as brexit would have been clear

It is pretty clear as it was framed in the referendum - do we remain in or leave the EU? The question categorically does not ask the UK people how we might leave or what leaving the EU might entail - it simply instructs the government that the will of the UK people is that we should leave the EU. The rest of the decision-making process follows from there, and should be decided by Parliament - and not by holding a referendum on each and every point of contention.

The only legitimate reason for holding another referendum (of any type) on the subject would be if the first vote was clearly rigged or that criminal activity was perpetrated by one or the other campaign - it is pretty clear that the Leave campaign were peddling a bunch of falsehoods, and probably also broke election funding laws, not to mention what else might have been going on behind closed doors, but alas it is not possible to determine how (if any) one particular vote may have been influenced by any particular campaign or campaigner - at the end of the day, each person who cast a vote is responsible for their vote, and thus the final result ought to be respected unless criminal behaviour is proven.